The Confederate Flag

[waggy]

I gues Jew hate is stil acceptable for now. I wonder if in a few months the flag will go back on sale once black hate is back in style.

sad situation is we have people that hate. trying to ban what they say just makes more people believe what they have to say.

Free speech is one of the foundations of the country. IF you agree or not does not matter. People have that right to show their ignorance.

I don't care that the flags are for sale. I have no reason to buy one. It also lets me know who not to be friends with. but i will defend the right for them to fly the silly thing.

 

[senseamp]

I want to know who the bigots are in the neighborhood as well.

 

[Sonikku]

Christ you'd think the big bad lib's took away everyone's personal right and use to wave around their confederate flag of choice to hear to colossal amount of butt hurt over the past week.

 

[ivwshane]

I gues Jew hate is stil acceptable for now. I wonder if in a few months the flag will go back on sale once black hate is back in style.

Jew hate is the bulk of religious hate crimes.

 

[MovingTarget]

Most Southerners, based on my experience, would choose none of the above and like me, would wonder what kind of Yankee would create that poll. Sure enough, the poll options were written by a Northerner. I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked.

Unless you live south of the Mason-Dixon line, you have no right to tell us how we should feel about our former flag(s). Rightly or wrongly, it is part of who we are. It is a mark on our history that should not be erased, but we should be allowed to move on from without being looked down upon by outsiders.

Yes, we do still have our racial demons to deal with, but at least we do so out in the open. All this "debate" over the flag has done the past few days is to solidify our own stubbornness to others telling us what to do and distract from the real issues that caused the recent violence. Those we need to talk about, not this low-hanging fruit.

 

[ivwshane]

Most Southerners, based on my experience, would choose none of the above and like me, would wonder what kind of Yankee would create that poll. Sure enough, the poll options were written by a Northerner. I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked.

Unless you live south of the Mason-Dixon line, you have no right to tell us how we should feel about our former flag(s). Rightly or wrongly, it is part of who we are. It is a mark on our history that should not be erased, but we should be allowed to move on from without being looked down upon by outsiders.

Yes, we do still have our racial demons to deal with, but at least we do so out in the open. All this "debate" over the flag has done the past few days is to solidify our own stubbornness to others telling us what to do and distract from the real issues that caused the recent violence. Those we need to talk about, not this low-hanging fruit.

You were stubborn to begin with that's why that racist symbol is still around! You need to be shamed, you need to be looked down upon, only then will you "move on". If that wasn't the case then progress would have already happened. Quite frankly, I think most Americans are tired of waiting for your ignorant asses.


Signed,

Your friendly northerner from 2015

 

[DrDoug]

Most Southerners, based on my experience, would choose none of the above and like me, would wonder what kind of Yankee would create that poll. Sure enough, the poll options were written by a Northerner. I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked.

Unless you live south of the Mason-Dixon line, you have no right to tell us how we should feel about our former flag(s). Rightly or wrongly, it is part of who we are. It is a mark on our history that should not be erased, but we should be allowed to move on from without being looked down upon by outsiders.

Yes, we do still have our racial demons to deal with, but at least we do so out in the open. All this "debate" over the flag has done the past few days is to solidify our own stubbornness to others telling us what to do and distract from the real issues that caused the recent violence. Those we need to talk about, not this low-hanging fruit.

Response to bolded line: No, you don't get to tell the rest of the nation to butt out of your business just because we don't live down there. Your forefathers fought a war just for that reason and lost. Go ahead and embrace the flag and your heritage, it's all yours. Go ahead and move on... just don't try to leave the history of slavery behind to be forgotten.

Slavery and the history of the south are inseparable, just as slavery and the history of America itself are inseparable.

 

[senseamp]

Most Southerners, based on my experience, would choose none of the above and like me, would wonder what kind of Yankee would create that poll. Sure enough, the poll options were written by a Northerner. I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked.

Unless you live south of the Mason-Dixon line, you have no right to tell us how we should feel about our former flag(s). Rightly or wrongly, it is part of who we are. It is a mark on our history that should not be erased, but we should be allowed to move on from without being looked down upon by outsiders.

Yes, we do still have our racial demons to deal with, but at least we do so out in the open. All this "debate" over the flag has done the past few days is to solidify our own stubbornness to others telling us what to do and distract from the real issues that caused the recent violence. Those we need to talk about, not this low-hanging fruit.

Tens of thousands of Northerners died defeating traitors who fought for slavery under the confederate flag. So hell yes, Northerners have every right to tell you how you should feel about your former traitor flag. You lost the fucking war.

 

[MovingTarget]

You were stubborn to begin with that's why that racist symbol is still around! You need to be shamed, you need to be looked down upon, only then will you "move on". If that wasn't the case then progress would have already happened. Quite frankly, I think most Americans are tired of waiting for your ignorant asses.


Signed,

Your friendly northerner from 2015

As someone who has been working to bring the South into the 21st century, I have to tell you, it isn't helping. The South has had the perception that the Northern states look down their noses at us for generations, even on issues unrelated to the Civil War, segregation, racism, etc. All this does is to help reinforce those feelings, which makes us dig our heels in even further.

Response to bolded line: No, you don't get to tell the rest of the nation to butt out of your business just because we don't live down there. Your forefathers fought a war just for that reason and lost. Go ahead and embrace the flag and your heritage, it's all yours. Go ahead and move on... just don't try to leave the history of slavery behind to be forgotten.

Slavery and the history of the south are inseparable, just as slavery and the history of America itself are inseparable.

Forgotten? No. We are reminded of it every single day by sanctimonious Northerners who feel that the actions of 150 years ago give them free reign to criticize every part of Southern culture, whether they understand/experience it or not. It is a part of us, and we are the ones that need to make peace with it, not you. We don't deny it, but we don't hide it either.

Tens of thousands of Northerners died defeating traitors who fought for slavery under the confederate flag. So hell yes, Northerners have every right to tell you how you should feel about your former traitor flag. You lost the fucking war.

It was your ancestors' choice to preserve the union, not ours. I suppose we do have a bit of schadenfreude on that front in the form of "you break it, too bad, you bought it". We have since come to see ourselves as an integral part of the USA, and wouldn't have it any other way. However, we are distinct in who we are and what formed us. Yes, we lost the war, and we came to peace with that a long time ago and have moved on. You can quote all the confederate leaders you want about the war being solely about race, but in the end the actual people that fought and died for the CSA didn't necessarily sign on for those same reasons. Their experiences coming back from the war, especially those under the reconstruction period, were the first building blocks of what we have become today. Northerners telling us how we should feel about our own history and shaming us for it is something that hasn't really changed since that time. Its time for those sanctimonious northerners to move on and remove that "we won, you lost" schtick from their rectums too.

 

[MongGrel]

 

[DrDoug]

...

Forgotten? No. We are reminded of it every single day by sanctimonious Northerners who feel that the actions of 150 years ago give them free reign to criticize every part of Southern culture, whether they understand/experience it or not. It is a part of us, and we are the ones that need to make peace with it, not you. We don't deny it, but we don't hide it either.

While some northerners can be sanctimonious about it, many others like myself acknowledge that slavery was a problem for America, not just the south. It was a national issue that the south turned into a regional issue in the name of preserving their economic power. The writing was on the wall, industrialization was coming and with it the south's domination in the economy via agriculture and slavery were going to be playing second fiddle to it. Up to the point of the Civil War, the south was able to have tax laws passed that heavily favored the south. With industrialization coming, the north was looking to push for tax laws that were more favorable to their states and their new economies. Rather than embracing industrialization, the slaveholders of the south preferred to keep using what they viewed as cheap labor.

Heck, the per-capita income of the pre-Civil War time was almost double that of the north and the north was growing in power. Times were changing but the south refused to change with them, preferring to fight for the 'old ways'.

It was your ancestors' choice to preserve the union, not ours. ...

No, it was your ancestors choice to attempt to dissolve the Union and we had no choice in the matter but to respond to preserve the United States.

Good try though.

 

[MovingTarget]

While some northerners can be sanctimonious about it, many others like myself acknowledge that slavery was a problem for America, not just the south. It was a national issue that the south turned into a regional issue in the name of preserving their economic power. The writing was on the wall, industrialization was coming and with it the south's domination in the economy via agriculture and slavery were going to be playing second fiddle to it. Up to the point of the Civil War, the south was able to have tax laws passed that heavily favored the south. With industrialization coming, the north was looking to push for tax laws that were more favorable to their states and their new economies. Rather than embracing industrialization, the slaveholders of the south preferred to keep using what they viewed as cheap labor.

Heck, the per-capita income of the pre-Civil War time was almost double that of the north and the north was growing in power. Times were changing but the south refused to change with them, preferring to fight for the 'old ways'.

Hmmm....I can't say that I disagree with you on this part, but it does seem a bit atypical of northerners' opinions, as they have been expressed to me in the past. In fact, I agree with it wholeheartedly. If this were the starting point of the conversation between our regions, they would be much more productive and friendly.

No, it was your ancestors choice to attempt to dissolve the Union and we had no choice in the matter but to respond to preserve the United States.

Good try though.

This part, not so much. We seceded and formed our own government, and the union was split. There was a choice on your part too after that happened. It takes two to tango, so to speak. It was still perfectly feasible at that point to let the CSA forge its own route. Fortunately, you made the right decision to force us back into the fold. I and most Southerners would hate to live in a modern day CSA.

 

[MongGrel]

Hmmm....I can't say that I disagree with you on this part, but it does seem a bit atypical of northerners' opinions, as they have been expressed to me in the past. In fact, I agree with it wholeheartedly. If this were the starting point of the conversation between our regions, they would be much more productive and friendly.


This part, not so much. We seceded and formed our own government, and the union was split. There was a choice on your part too after that happened. It takes two to tango, so to speak. It was still perfectly feasible at that point to let the CSA forge its own route. Fortunately, you made the right decision to force us back into the fold. I and most Southerners would hate to live in a modern day CSA.

Are you 13 or something ?

 

[zinfamous]

This part, not so much. We seceded and formed our own government, and the union was split. There was a choice on your part too after that happened. It takes two to tango, so to speak. It was still perfectly feasible at that point to let the CSA forge its own route. Fortunately, you made the right decision to force us back into the fold. I and most Southerners would hate to live in a modern day CSA.

Except that wasn't the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Sumter

 

[senseamp]

It was your ancestors' choice to preserve the union, not ours. I suppose we do have a bit of schadenfreude on that front in the form of "you break it, too bad, you bought it". We have since come to see ourselves as an integral part of the USA, and wouldn't have it any other way. However, we are distinct in who we are and what formed us. Yes, we lost the war, and we came to peace with that a long time ago and have moved on. You can quote all the confederate leaders you want about the war being solely about race, but in the end the actual people that fought and died for the CSA didn't necessarily sign on for those same reasons. Their experiences coming back from the war, especially those under the reconstruction period, were the first building blocks of what we have become today. Northerners telling us how we should feel about our own history and shaming us for it is something that hasn't really changed since that time. Its time for those sanctimonious northerners to move on and remove that "we won, you lost" schtick from their rectums too.

Your ancestors lost a traitorous war against America, which they fought to preserve slavery. Then they came back and joined the Klan, a terrorist organization, and implemented Jim Crow, which is an atrocity against this country. That's what the Northerners are telling you. If the truth hurts, go ahead and put up a monument to whitewash that history, but the rest of us are going to keep telling it like it is.

 

[MovingTarget]

Except that wasn't the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Sumter

It is easy to forsee a dispute over property like Sumter, which was a union base located in the part of a state that had seceded from the union. This could have amounted to a boarder skirmish at most, or a diplomatic dispute at best, had cooler heads prevailed. Instead of diplomacy, the union dug in and tried to reinforce its position in Charleston Harbor. Any time a nation-state splits, you are going to have those kinds of disputes. It is hardly unique to the civil war itself.

 

[Newell Steamer]

If the truth hurts, go ahead and put up a monument to whitewash that history, but the rest of us are going to keep telling it like it is.

The dead are pretty good at telling it like it is as well.

 

[MongGrel]

It is easy to forsee a dispute over property like Sumter, which was a union base located in the part of a state that had seceded from the union. This could have amounted to a boarder skirmish at most, or a diplomatic dispute at best, had cooler heads prevailed. Instead of diplomacy, the union dug in and tried to reinforce its position in Charleston Harbor. Any time a nation-state splits, you are going to have those kinds of disputes. It is hardly unique to the civil war itself.

Maybe 11 then.

Somehow you do not seem to have enough knowledge to argue about it if you are spouting off things kids used to learn in grade school at this point.

Unless schools have gotten that bad, I imagine they probably have.

 

[MovingTarget]

Maybe 11 then.

Either make something resembling a point or increment your post count somewhere else. The diplomatic attempts prior to the battle are in the article itself if you care to read. As a thought exercise, imagine any nation splitting into two (or more!) parts, one containing the original capitol, with them still controlling a base in the other part(s). That is essentially what was brewing at Sumter. Look at the breakup of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, the Ottoman Empire, or literally anywhere else. You can even imagine what would happen if Scotland broke from the UK. I don't deny that the CSA fired on the union base, as cooler heads did NOT prevail. That was the point. Still it was possible for that particular instance to have ended peaceably, even if the war itself was inevitable.

 

[MongGrel]

Either make something resembling a point or increment your post count somewhere else.

I just did.

 

[DrDoug]

Either make something resembling a point or increment your post count somewhere else. The diplomatic attempts prior to the battle are in the article itself if you care to read. As a thought exercise, imagine any nation splitting into two (or more!) parts, one containing the original capitol, with them still controlling a base in the other part(s). That is essentially what was brewing at Sumter. Look at the breakup of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, the Ottoman Empire, or literally anywhere else. You can even imagine what would happen if Scotland broke from the UK. I don't deny that the CSA fired on the union base, as cooler heads did NOT prevail. That was the point. Still it was possible for that particular instance to have ended peaceably, even if the war itself was inevitable.

You can't look at this as just a simple secession, a "we're just going to go do our thing so leave us alone" and just drop everything else that led up to that point. A pact between states was formed with considerable considerations given to the slaveholding states in the south that favored them economically over the north. As the economic climate changed the states in the south decided to attempt to break that pact because they didn't want to face the future. Instead, the south tried to force expansion of slavery into new states in an attempt to stack federal offices in their favor. When it was clear that they were not going to get their way, they tried to dissolve the Union. The south started the war, not the north.

The north responded and settled the matter.

ETA:

Confederate flag store owner Anna Robb on the Confederate flag: "It has nothing to do with the slavery issue."

One small detail that Anna left out is that her father in law is the national director of the KKK. Oh, and that her husband once tried to adopt a highway section on behalf of the KKK.

But they're not racist! Not a bit.

 

[MovingTarget]

You can't look at this as just a simple secession, a "we're just going to go do our thing so leave us alone" and just drop everything else that led up to that point. A pact between states was formed with considerable considerations given to the slaveholding states in the south that favored them economically over the north. As the economic climate changed the states in the south decided to attempt to break that pact because they didn't want to face the future. Instead, the south tried to force expansion of slavery into new states in an attempt to stack federal offices in their favor. When it was clear that they were not going to get their way, they tried to dissolve the Union. The south started the war, not the north.

The north responded and settled the matter.

Good post.

Sumter was merely the flashpoint for which the war began in earnest, but the fact that it was the initial flashpoint instead of some other place in the larger narrative is inconsequential. The Sumter situation could've ended peacefully, but it was only one point of contention among many. You do bring up a good point about expansion into the western territories though. The pact between the states as part of a single nation could not have held if it were between two competing nation-states. That is part of why I think the overall war was inevitable, regardless of the events at Sumter. Those competing economic and political narratives could not have coexisted indefinitely. The CSA represented the old ways, as opposed to the future we now live.

I suppose I disagree with you in a minor way because I consider having formed a functioning government as more than an attempt at splitting the union. They did split the union, albeit temporarily, because as you said, the north responded and settled the matter. I suppose that may boil down to semantics, but either way, it was for the best that the right side won.

 

[MovingTarget]

ETA:

Confederate flag store owner Anna Robb on the Confederate flag: "It has nothing to do with the slavery issue."

One small detail that Anna left out is that her father in law is the national director of the KKK. Oh, and that her husband once tried to adopt a highway section on behalf of the KKK.

But they're not racist! Not a bit.

Didn't see your edit there. Anyone that espouses the view that the flag had nothing to do with slavery is just as wrong as those that believe that it is the only thing it represents. It ignores the larger narratives, but those people you cited are downright delusional.

As I said, I used to display that flag myself, but no longer do so. The majority of those that do display it down here don't do so out of some wish to intimidate or do violence against others based on race, whereas seeing one of those flags outside of the South is a pretty clear indicator of exactly that. What convinced me to no longer do so are my fellow Southerners, out of respect for our neighbors who were victims of those who appropriated that flag for other more sinister uses in their lifetimes, not 150+ years ago. Attitudes down here change based on our lived experience with others, not by constantly being berated by those hundreds of miles away with a chip on their shoulder.

But as people are likely to point out, we still have a long way to go with actual policy, and Southerners like me welcome the help on things like voter ID, housing and employment discrimination, gerrymandering, etc. Focusing on symbolism such as the various confederate flag displays only serves to distract from the real work we still have to do down here and turn attitudes against it. Symbolism will be our last step of true reform, but it has to be one we take ourselves.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

ETA:

Confederate flag store owner Anna Robb on the Confederate flag: "It has nothing to do with the slavery issue."

One small detail that Anna left out is that her father in law is the national director of the KKK. Oh, and that her husband once tried to adopt a highway section on behalf of the KKK.

But they're not racist! Not a bit.

Decided to try something to satisfy my
Curiousity after reading that article and just did a Google image search for Klan rally. And damned if the confederate flag wasn't in half the pictures randomly pulled relating to the KKK.

If that flag isn't about racism and oppression I don't know what is apparently.

 

[pcgeek11]

Let us not forget what the real intention of the Confederation was all about,..
http://web.archive.org/web/20130822...tory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/



But, that's totes OK, since States Rights and what not - you know; "It is my States' Rights and Freedom to take away someone else's freedom, since that someone else is not my equal,.. but it's not racist."

How about Abe Lincoln views:

His views became clear during an 1858 series of debates with his opponent in the Illinois race for U.S. Senate, Stephen Douglas, who had accused him of supporting “negro equality.” In their fourth debate, at Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Old Honest Abe was a racist. They should remove him from the penny and the dollar bill.