highland145
Lifer
- Oct 12, 2009
- 43,412
- 5,833
- 136
But the same should apply to the Confederate Flag. Racism/slavery vs killing blacks. I don't care what year it's in.exactly.
But, whatever, I'm done.
But, whatever, I'm done.
Bada-Bing!
The difference really couldn't be more stark. PP has openly renounced Sanger's offensive remarks. The South has never denounced the Confederacy but rather idealized & glorified it, held to many confederate values about race all through the Jim Crow era & on into today.
Krugman links a very interesting piece-
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/20...Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs®ion=Body
senseamp
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
- 35,787
- 6,195
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No, you are fucking nuts to support a monument to a racist slave owner traitor war criminal. And you are double nuts to expect Memphis, which is 63% black, to host such a monument just because some racists put it up during Jim Crow days.
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 110,648
- 29,307
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well, slavery is slavery. the institution only ever existed along a spectrum of horrible to downright evil.
the eugenics movement wasn't simply "what Hitler thought we should do."
As I mentioned earlier, this was the primary paradigm in the earliest days of Genetic discovery. It wasn't about "Creating a master race," and certainly didn't involve "murdering and cleansing inferior races."
The idea was that favorable traits could be effectively enforced through selective breeding. Yes, this type of theory (bear in mind that much of the work at this time was all thought; very little applied science in those days) would lead to discussions about a singular perfect type of human, and of course there were fringe wackos coming out of the woodwork to latch on to parts of this field and take it to the next level (like Hitler), but this was long before any real understanding about genes actually worked.
This was before we even knew what the DNA molecule looked like. There is so very little one can understand about function, prior to understanding form. Prior to knowing how to work with it.
Anyway, once we learned that "bad genes" generally weren't all that bad, that the real benefit of sexual reproduction is creating real diversity in genetic information, even with the "bad genes," eugenics was tossed into the dustbin. Well, that, and the only true believers were certified psychonutballs.
As for the confederate flag, it really has only ever signified one thing. Frankly, I don't see why it can't continue to exist on one's belt buckle, at their house, on their lunchbox, but it makes no sense to fly as the symbol of an incorporated government entity. It's just, horribly bad form. I'm not saying this in a judgmental fashion (I have too much sympathy for and history in the south, and I certainly know that it isn't a racist symbol for lots of people: meaning, it can still be racist--and it is--but it's perfectly reasonable to understand that it doesn't mean, or is not used as a racist flag to others. I get that; as weird as that sounds)..
Hey, it could be worse--Mississippi has it on their actual state flag...and I do believe Georgia does as well, right?
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Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
- Nov 30, 2006
- 15,456
- 389
- 121
I don't think so. Perhaps you should think about that and then perhaps answer the fucking question.
blankslate
Diamond Member
- Jun 16, 2008
- 8,596
- 476
- 126
OP.
you forgot the "The South shall rise again... and then get their asses handed back to them.. again." option.
....
you forgot the "The South shall rise again... and then get their asses handed back to them.. again." option.
....
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 110,648
- 29,307
- 146
*^ I should clarify up there: I'm not trying to sugarcoat the eugenics movement by saying well, there were a few bad apples, and it really wasn't all that bad...it was bad. It was wrong from the beginning, it was bad science, and it certainly spawned some evil, murderous motherfuckers. So there's a real responsibility on that movement, not just for "bad science," but for encouraging some very evil shit.
Point is that many communities have dark pasts that we have to address and hopefully learn from and move on. As a geneticist, this is something that I guess I identify with. Science, though, is pretty good about moving on and reforming the paradigm when it happens to be wrong, which is really why science works so well. I'm also a southerner; my paternal grandmother a staunch antebellum, hyper-racist, old south type of woman. This is just something I grew up with--"that was just grandma!" She is also a Mayflower girl, which I think makes me 13th gen mayflower, or something (different name, though; but the reality is that biology is more important than name when it comes to lineage--so fuck that dusty old club if they want to deny me a certificate!)
...and look at that list of "eugenicists"up there: a rather diverse collection of people linked to this theory, which shows just how wide the movement varied:
Winston Churchill--certainly wouldn't call him evil; he was probably an asshole (like all politicians), but seemed like an alright guy, otherwise.
Francis Crick--OK, this guy was an unapologetic dickscarf. fuck that guy, and Watson, too.
Hellen Keller--Wait, are we allowed to say bad things about Hellen Keller?
anyway, no one alive today in the US, or posting here, owned slaves, lynched anyone, or donned a white hood (well, there was that one guy). I doubt there are any eugenics supporters around here (Well, not since spidey self-banned. fuck it, I'll just say his name), so none of this is to point fingers at what anyone's ancestors did in the past. None of us are responsible for any of that.
We are responsible for learning from the past, though. And moving on; and hoping that we are made better for it.
Point is that many communities have dark pasts that we have to address and hopefully learn from and move on. As a geneticist, this is something that I guess I identify with. Science, though, is pretty good about moving on and reforming the paradigm when it happens to be wrong, which is really why science works so well. I'm also a southerner; my paternal grandmother a staunch antebellum, hyper-racist, old south type of woman. This is just something I grew up with--"that was just grandma!" She is also a Mayflower girl, which I think makes me 13th gen mayflower, or something (different name, though; but the reality is that biology is more important than name when it comes to lineage--so fuck that dusty old club if they want to deny me a certificate!
)...and look at that list of "eugenicists"up there: a rather diverse collection of people linked to this theory, which shows just how wide the movement varied:
Winston Churchill--certainly wouldn't call him evil; he was probably an asshole (like all politicians), but seemed like an alright guy, otherwise.
Francis Crick--OK, this guy was an unapologetic dickscarf. fuck that guy, and Watson, too.
Hellen Keller--Wait, are we allowed to say bad things about Hellen Keller?
anyway, no one alive today in the US, or posting here, owned slaves, lynched anyone, or donned a white hood (well, there was that one guy). I doubt there are any eugenics supporters around here (Well, not since spidey self-banned. fuck it, I'll just say his name), so none of this is to point fingers at what anyone's ancestors did in the past. None of us are responsible for any of that.
We are responsible for learning from the past, though. And moving on; and hoping that we are made better for it.
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Sanger is a contemporary of at least some of those folks. What's the difference between her and them (other than being an American right wing 'talking point')?
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zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 110,648
- 29,307
- 146
While you weren't the first to bring her up in this thread, what exactly were you suggesting by this comment?
So...just use the non-judgmental jaundiced eye? :hmm:
waggy
No Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 68,145
- 10
- 81
LOL i didn't say shit about the monument. I said when you go so fucking PC crazy you start thinking DIGGING UP DEAD people is a good idea you need your fucking head checked.
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 110,648
- 29,307
- 146
at first, I agreed with you...but the fact that his corpse was already dug up once to be moved there, for some reason (as a direct "fuck you" to the Civil Rights movement, actually; and well, we do this often, moving corpses back and forth, you know?), makes me think...eh, whatever.
Confederate General? I think that is fucked up.
Oh, that general also happens to be a founder of the KKK? ....and he's buried in Memphis, which is 60% Black? oh.
well, hmm. fuck those bones.
So, if this fuckhole's dead bones were moved to this spot in the 60s, simply as a middle finger to blacks seeking equal treatment under the law....then, well. Wait. WHY THE FUCK IS HE STILL THERE?
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senseamp
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
- 35,787
- 6,195
- 126
It's part of whole monument complex, statue and grave. And Memphis wants to move it to a cemetery, not a junk yard.
Certainly if that cemetery is good enough for two generals who fought for America, it's good enough for a racist war criminal traitor klan leader?
You do also realize he was dug up to be brought up to the monument in the first place to honor and white wash the Confederacy during the Jim Crow days?
He died in 1877.
Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
- Nov 30, 2006
- 15,456
- 389
- 121
Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
- Nov 30, 2006
- 15,456
- 389
- 121
If you'd care to actually discuss something that's fine with me.
Now, what was the point of bringing up Sanger and her eugenics beliefs and why are her beliefs important to note while others who believed the same thing should be dismissed?
btw, "people like me"?
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Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
- Nov 30, 2006
- 15,456
- 389
- 121
If you're truly interested in discussion, please answer my original question instead of attempting to divert into a slamming the right wing. Or do you find that too difficult?
Fayd
Diamond Member
How am I diverting into slamming the right wing? Have I said anything about the right wing?
I'm just curious as to the reason that Sanger is a part of the discussion about the Confederate flag and what it represents, that being a 'country' that considered slavery to be a cornerstone of it's existence.
No, you can't 'judge' Sanger by moral/ethical standards of today. But then Sanger never tried to found a country based on the enslavement of others did she. And, the Planned Parenthood of today has nothing to do with her past belief in eugenics unlike how significant parts of the modern South still cling to the racist beliefs and symbols of the past.
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zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 110,648
- 29,307
- 146
review my long posts about eugenics.
now, what do you think about my command of this concept of the jaundiced eye?
or, continue to deflect from a rather snicker-worthy misstep that you just made over a series of two posts.
whatever. I don't give a shit.
SheHateMe
Diamond Member
- Jul 21, 2012
- 7,251
- 20
- 81
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 110,648
- 29,307
- 146
impressive. not much resistance around that area, for her and her partner to be able to get to the flag, climb up, and do that without being interrupted.
Have to admit that I'm surprised that the open carry brigade haven't been out in full force defending their flag the last week; much less state police/security...or maybe both the state and people in SC don't care as much about that flag as we are supposed to believe they do? :hmm:
waggy
No Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 68,145
- 10
- 81
Hugo Drax
Diamond Member
- Nov 20, 2011
- 5,647
- 47
- 91
I gues Jew hate is stil acceptable for now. I wonder if in a few months the flag will go back on sale once black hate is back in style.
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