The Confederate Flag

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The Confederate Flag Is,...

  • a symbol of racism.

  • a symbol of freedom.

  • a symbol that was once racist, but now no longer is.

  • I am a raging moron.


Results are only viewable after voting.

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,540
17,057
136
How about Abe Lincoln views:

His views became clear during an 1858 series of debates with his opponent in the Illinois race for U.S. Senate, Stephen Douglas, who had accused him of supporting “negro equality.” In their fourth debate, at Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Old Honest Abe was a racist. They should remove him from the penny and the dollar bill.


So are you of the opinion that all politicians tell the truth and that they don't pander to the voters in front of them or to which ever ways the polls lean?

I dare you to answer the question honestly!
 

DrDoug

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2014
3,580
1,629
136
Good post. :)

...

Thanks! :D What I said is a gross simplification of events leading up to the Civil War but it gives a good gist of what I understand was going on. I was taught this in our public schools, as were many other kids here in the north. We know slavery was an American problem, we were taught that. We were also taught about the Civil War, both pre and post eras, carpetbagging included. Another example of collective American history is our treatment of Native Americans (smallpox blanket anyone?). That is a part of our history that no American can shrug off, that and much, much more. It's part of our heritage as Americans, every one of us. Even those whose ancestors came after the Civil War. You don't get to embrace the good of the country without the bad. You are an American, it is in the history of your nation.

An important thing about our heritage is that you can't separate it from history. The Beauregard Battle flag has been linked to white supremacist groups and it has a lot of blood on it. I now it has the fresh blood of nine innocent black Americans spattered on it. It will forever be remembered for what it has become, a symbol used by racist white supremacists to show their hatred of blacks and others they think of as lesser beings. There's a reason for that and the history of the Dixiecrats can fill in the gaps for those who don't know the origins of the current usage of the Beauregard Battle flag.

Enough for now, a friend has dropped by for a bong session... :biggrin:
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
24
76
How about Abe Lincoln views:

His views became clear during an 1858 series of debates with his opponent in the Illinois race for U.S. Senate, Stephen Douglas, who had accused him of supporting “negro equality.” In their fourth debate, at Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Old Honest Abe was a racist. They should remove him from the penny and the dollar bill.

Likewise President Obama's remarks at a certain stage of his career regarding marriage equality should preclude him from sainthood or coinhood in the future, right?

And I am a firm proponent of the one and two dollar coins.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
impressive. not much resistance around that area, for her and her partner to be able to get to the flag, climb up, and do that without being interrupted.

Have to admit that I'm surprised that the open carry brigade haven't been out in full force defending their flag the last week; much less state police/security...or maybe both the state and people in SC don't care as much about that flag as we are supposed to believe they do? :hmm:

They were arrested when came down and within an hour the flag was flying again per state law. I will be surprised if they can get the required votes to change the current law.
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
8
0
How about Abe Lincoln views:

His views became clear during an 1858 series of debates with his opponent in the Illinois race for U.S. Senate, Stephen Douglas, who had accused him of supporting “negro equality.” In their fourth debate, at Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Old Honest Abe was a racist. They should remove him from the penny and the dollar bill.

Sounds like he was - but, I am not sure why we should remove him from the penny, when I never asked the Confederate flag to be banned.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,892
10,224
136
It should be thrown on the dirt and danced on, relegated to history.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
They were arrested when came down and within an hour the flag was flying again per state law. I will be surprised if they can get the required votes to change the current law.
I am sure it isn't the last time. And every time it brings negative attention to the South, undermining it economically and politically.
That's what civil disobedience is all about. Maybe they'll put razor wire around it, that will be a nice touch for the slaver's flag.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Driving around my town yesterday I passed by the sign pointing people towards the town's Vietnam War Memorial, and I thought "You're next buddy! Was nice knowing you."

:p
 

Zodiark1593

Platinum Member
Oct 21, 2012
2,230
4
81
If you feel so strongly against the old Confederate Battle Flag, you could always do a mass burning. In this country, flag burning is legal.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,829
10,130
136
Decided to try something to satisfy my Curiousity after reading that article and just did a Google image search for Klan rally. And damned if the confederate flag wasn't in half the pictures randomly pulled relating to the KKK.

If that flag isn't about racism and oppression I don't know what is apparently.
Yes... let's ban the flag they're holding, and tear down the monuments / capitol they rallied on. That'd be 1: real intelligent, and 2: solve racial issues in America.

Because if it's one thing we know solves racial issues, it's bitter divisiveness. Which is the story of how you snatched defeat from the jaws of victory when the nation was united and unanimously condemned the shooter. Instead of using that unity to rise a nation up, you'd rather cling to racism to tear a nation down.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Most Southerners, based on my experience, would choose none of the above and like me, would wonder what kind of Yankee would create that poll. Sure enough, the poll options were written by a Northerner. I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked.

Unless you live south of the Mason-Dixon line, you have no right to tell us how we should feel about our former flag(s). Rightly or wrongly, it is part of who we are. It is a mark on our history that should not be erased, but we should be allowed to move on from without being looked down upon by outsiders.

Yes, we do still have our racial demons to deal with, but at least we do so out in the open. All this "debate" over the flag has done the past few days is to solidify our own stubbornness to others telling us what to do and distract from the real issues that caused the recent violence. Those we need to talk about, not this low-hanging fruit.

Yes... let's ban the flag they're holding, and tear down the monuments / capitol they rallied on. That'd be 1: real intelligent, and 2: solve racial issues in America.

Because if it's one thing we know solves racial issues, it's bitter divisiveness. Which is the story of how you snatched defeat from the jaws of victory when the nation was united and unanimously condemned the shooter. Instead of using that unity to rise a nation up, you'd rather cling to racism to tear a nation down.

Not exactly. Some southerners would rather cling to a symbol of divisiveness & repression they've used for 150 years, knowing full well what it means to black people.

I mean, *them*? Fuck them. They've taken the shaft for hundreds of years. They deserve it. It's in the Bible!
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
holy shit that is flat out crazy.

Why? I see it as pretty reasonable, this whole mess is a good chance for the South to join the 21st century while keeping some self-respect/moral highground. It is about time the USA healed this old wound that has plagued us for so long. The Southern conservative "heritage" thing was always a lame form of hipsterism, just in stupid looking cowboy boots. (that white people culturally appropriated from Mexican vaqueros anyhow)
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
So what would this do to every episode of the dukes of hazard and the general lee replicas out and about....

its a flag, who cares.

About as ridiculous as all the schools who change their mascot names and logos for fear of offending anyone.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,864
31,359
146
So what would this do to every episode of the dukes of hazard and the general lee replicas out and about....

its a flag, who cares.

About as ridiculous as all the schools who change their mascot names and logos for fear of offending anyone.

when was the last time you saw Song of the South on public programming, or Merry Melodies?

also, it isn't fear. It's, "We should stop being dickbags, I guess?"
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,112
1,587
126
It's a racist symbol. It's always been a racist symbol. It was created as one, it was used as one, it was reintroduced in southern states in the 50's and 60's as one. Everyone in this nation knows it's racist as hell. The confederate flag belongs in exactly 2 places, civil war museums and in the possession of any redneck who doesn't mind advertising their racism. It does NOT belong on anything official of any state's government. No buildings, no documents or forms, no flag poles. Private individuals are free to be as ignorant and narrow as they want, government needs to be neutral.

In addition it should be illegal for any person that fought for the Confederacy to have their name honored as a street, public school, or military base. Anything funded by the public. If a privately owned building wants to, their choice.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,864
31,359
146
It's a racist symbol. It's always been a racist symbol. It was created as one, it was used as one, it was reintroduced in southern states in the 50's and 60's as one. Everyone in this nation knows it's racist as hell. The confederate flag belongs in exactly 2 places, civil war museums and in the possession of any redneck who doesn't mind advertising their racism. It does NOT belong on anything official of any state's government. No buildings, no documents or forms, no flag poles. Private individuals are free to be as ignorant and narrow as they want, government needs to be neutral.

Don't see anything wrong with that

In addition it should be illegal for any person that fought for the Confederacy to have their name honored as a street, public school, or military base. Anything funded by the public. If a privately owned building wants to, their choice.

well, that's rather absurd. I think some special cases can be made based on the individual and their lives during and after the war (say, founding the KKK like Forrest, or aiding and encouraging the defeated south to join the Union, become good citizens, and work to heal the nation, like Lee). Many fought for the South simply because they were southern
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,112
1,587
126
Don't see anything wrong with that



well, that's rather absurd. I think some special cases can be made based on the individual and their lives during and after the war (say, founding the KKK like Forrest, or aiding and encouraging the defeated south to join the Union, become good citizens, and work to heal the nation, like Lee). Many fought for the South simply because they were southern

I can understand your premise, but the Civil War wasn't the north vs the south. It was the Confederacy vs the United States of America. And I don't feel that the USA should honor its enemies, period.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,864
31,359
146
I can understand your premise, but the Civil War wasn't the north vs the south. It was the Confederacy vs the United States of America. And I don't feel that the USA should honor its enemies, period.

we do that all the time, though--honoring our (former) enemies. From England, to Germany and Japan, and Italy, et al; the world would be a very different place today, I think, if we maintained an eternally punitive stance against former enemies. War sucks, why make it permanent?

Maybe it's the south in me, but I don't see the confederates as not being American. We still count the total deaths of that war, including both armies, as a single tally of American lives lost.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
when was the last time you saw Song of the South on public programming, or Merry Melodies?

also, it isn't fear. It's, "We should stop being dickbags, I guess?"

it is fear though, they are motivated by public uprising, outcry, litigation etc...

Even now the only reason this is an issue is because one idiot used it as a symbol for their own personal act of hate and it gets panties in a bunch enough to have the zealots try to eradicate it from history.

remove it from the state house grounds, purge it from toys, stop showing re-runs of the Dukes, but the fact is it was/is a part of history and in this case it is just a flag.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,864
31,359
146
it is fear though, they are motivated by public uprising, outcry, litigation etc...

Even now the only reason this is an issue is because one idiot used it as a symbol for their own personal act of hate and it gets panties in a bunch enough to have the zealots try to eradicate it from history.

remove it from the state house grounds, purge it from toys, stop showing re-runs of the Dukes, but the fact is it was/is a part of history and in this case it is just a flag.

again, it's not just one idiot. It's history. Consider the idiot the flashpoint if you will, but it has always been racist and has always been history at the same time....consider it racist, treasonous history, if you will.

Of course you know this isn't the first time the debate has come up. I'm not into erasing it from history, disallowing private use or display--but using this a state symbol is certainly more than bad form.

symbols change all the time because of what some "asshole" later used them for. Do you see the swastika flying prominently anywhere in the US or Europe? I wonder why--it is an ancient symbol of unity and tranquility, after all. Really strange that some people are so offended by it for some reason. Really strange--it's history, after all, and those that see it as such are clearly more important than those who choose to be offended by it...simply because of what some asshole later did with that flag. right?

....as accurate as that comparison is, it isn't entirely perfect, as the confederate flag was never not tied to an acceptance of slavery, racism, jim crow, and white supremacy. Those ideas have always been part of that flag no matter which representation a particular individual chooses to ascribe to it an any particular time.

being southern, I ascribe a certain romance to the idea of rebellion, it was always part of what I knew, in some way. I don't particularly have a problem with the flag, but I also don't have a history of attaching that symbol as a banner for a class of people that once murdered my family simply for who they were.

I fail to understand why it is so hard for people to accept the argument: "You simply can not appreciate what this means to people because you aren't part of that history, and never could be of that class of people."

I'm sorry, but growing up white, I will never know what it means to grow up black. And nor will any other white person. Attempting to walk a few steps in those shoes is not a sign of weakness or "whiny liberal political correctness." It's a sign of maturity.

If you use the argument "it's just a flag," then I wonder why anyone spends so much effort defending it. It's just a flag, right?
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
If you use the argument "it's just a flag," then I wonder why anyone spends so much effort defending it. It's just a flag, right?

Because if you don't fight back on anything, activists will take away everything.

Just saw an article the other day about activists wanting J. Edgar Hoover's name wiped off the FBI headquarters. It's just a name, right?

Let's ban GMO's because they create mutant humans, despite the fact that GMO's allow us the quantity to feed the planet. It's just some dna strands, right? Who cares?

Let's ban rock & roll, it's just one music style, right?

Just ban anything we (or should I say those in power) choose to be offended by. That will make for a better country. Yep.

It's just a flag.