How the PlayStation 4 is better than a PC

[Jaydip]

I wonder how many more posts before Galego factors in SLI scaling issues and claims you could potentially need 4 Titans to match the magical APU AMD created for the PS4. We're up to 3 as it is.

I believe in the end we will all agree that only the "Titan" supercomputer can hope to(still doubtful) match the almighty PS4 :biggrin:

 

[5150Joker]

I wonder how many more posts before Galego factors in SLI scaling issues and claims you could potentially need 4 Titans to match the magical APU AMD created for the PS4. We're up to 3 as it is.

I'm pretty sure we need quad Titans to match the power that is the PS4 and its Extra Emotional Engine©

 

[Erenhardt]

I'm pretty sure we need quad Titans to match the power that is the PS4 and its Extra Emotional Engine©

2 more and you will match $500 console! Don't let a scrub with a console have better performance than you with your PC. With some overclocking you should be on top.

 

[Pottuvoi]

PS4-GPU + HSA + hUMA + GDDR5 + close-to-metal =~1.8TFLOP

Fixed it for you.

No matter how close the metal you can program, the absolute maximum performance of system does not increase.

 

[galego]

Windows 7 starter edition runs fairly well on 1 GB.

Take win 7 and strip out the things that aren't needed for a console and your OS will probably only use 512 MB too.

That 1GB is the minimum memory required, not the recommended memory.

Starter is a 32bit OS. The minimum memory required for a 64bit Windows 7 is 2GB. Recommended for 64bit is something as 4GB.

Fixed it for you.

PS4-GPU x 2 (API overhead) + HSA + hUMA + GDDR5 + close-to-metal ~ 1.8TFLOP

No matter how close the metal you can program, the absolute maximum performance of system does not increase.

Good point, but misses the point entirely. We are not estimating how maximum performance can be bypassed, because this is impossible, evidently. We are doing something different.

We are estimating how the maximum performance of the console compares to maximum performance on a PC. Therefore the 'fix' looks more like

PS4-GPU x 2 (API overhead) + HSA + hUMA + GDDR5 + close-to-metal ~ 9 TFLOP on PC

Of course, this is a sloppy way to write it, because a TFLOP is always a TFLOP: was a console, a PC, or otherwise. Therefore, before someone come on with some irrelevant comment of this kind, just repeat the estimation in the other way. Start from a PC with a maximum performance of 9 TFLOP and subtract performance from API overhead, from lacking hUMA and HSA, from lacking direct access to hardware...

9 TFLOP - 2x_API_overhead - HSA - hUMA - GDDR5 - close_to_metal ~ 1.8 TFLOP

which is the PS4-GPU performance.

 

[Pottuvoi]

Good point, but misses the point entirely. We are not estimating how maximum performance can be bypassed, because this is impossible, evidently. We are doing something different.

Better way would be to estimate how much PC loses, not how much console wins.

Anyway the biggest improvement comes from the ability to do things differently, not from how much efficiently it does the same thing.

 

[Enigmoid]

That 1GB is the minimum memory required, not the recommended memory.

Starter is a 32bit OS. The minimum memory required for a 64bit Windows 7 is 2GB. Recommended for 64bit is something as 4GB.

No, its 1 GB for 32 bit and 2 GB for 64 bit.

And please differentiate between the memory required for the computer (running programs + OS) and the memory that the OS actually uses.

 

[Black Octagon]

Am I the only person who thinks that a colossal amount of wasted energy has gone into this thread? It seems to me to be a purely academic question we're 'discussing' here, with no real-world consequences for consumers or the industry

(at least not until the console is itself out)

 

[Jaydip]

Am I the only person who thinks that a colossal amount of wasted energy has gone into this thread? It seems to me to be a purely academic question we're 'discussing' here, with no real-world consequences for consumers or the industry

(at least not until the console is itself out)

No you are not the only one.I believe we can now declare galego the winner and close this thread

 

[joshhedge]

No you are not the only one.I believe we can now declare galego the winner and close this thread

Until proven otherwise in practise

 

[Jaydip]

Until proven otherwise in practise

Gotta give credits where it is due though.He found some links and quotes probably even google failed to fetch :biggrin:

 

[joshhedge]

Gotta give credits where it is due though.He found some links and quotes probably even google failed to fetch :biggrin:

Succeeded in metaphorically finding a needle in a haystack.

 

[galego]

Better way would be to estimate how much PC loses, not how much console wins.

Once again agree with you. Estimating loses:

9 TFLOP - 2x_API_overhead - HSA - hUMA - GDDR5 - close_to_metal ~ 1.8 TFLOP

The first correction is eliminating loses from bloated API, the second eliminates GPU bottlenecks, the third and four corrections eliminate PCI and DDR3, and the fifth eliminates intermediate layers/'drivers'.

But that can be rewritten exactly like

9 TFLOP ~ 1.8 TFLOP + 2x_API_overhead + HSA + hUMA + GDDR5 + close_to_metal

or, reorganising again,

1.8 TFLOP + 2x_API_overhead + HSA + hUMA + GDDR5 + close_to_metal ~ 9 TFLOP

which was my original claim. Of course, I don't care if the final value is 9.2 or 6.8, because this is only about obtaining a first estimation.

P.S: The new console from Microsoft is the Xbox ONE and comes with 15 exclusives titles the first year, voice commands, run a special lightweight operative system Xbox OS (complemented with another OS for running some windows 8 apps plus a third OS that manages the switchs between both sub OSs) and, I know 21s will love this, lots of "magic" :biggrin:

It has about 8x the graphic performance of the Xbox 360 and uses an SoC APU from AMD (8 cores).

 

[Stuka87]

P.S: The new console from Microsoft is the Xbox ONE and comes with 15 exclusives titles the first year, voice commands, run a special lightweight operative system Xbox OS (complemented with another OS for running some windows 8 apps plus a third OS that manages the switchs between both sub OSs) and, I know 21s will love this, lots of "magic" :biggrin:

It has about 8x the graphic performance of the Xbox 360 and uses an SoC APU from AMD (8 cores).

I have not seen it listed anywhere that the One uses 8 cores. All they said is that it has the CPU, GPU, and Memory all on one SoC, and that it is 40nm (yuck).

I think Sony has a clear advantage on hardware here, which we already assumed to be the case.

 

[Erenhardt]

I have not seen it listed anywhere that the One uses 8 cores. All they said is that it has the CPU, GPU, and Memory all on one SoC, and that it is 40nm (yuck).

I think Sony has a clear advantage on hardware here, which we already assumed to be the case.

Here it is:

It looks so much like ps4

 

[Enigmoid]

Once again agree with you. Estimating loses:

9 TFLOP - 2x_API_overhead - HSA - hUMA - GDDR5 - close_to_metal ~ 1.8 TFLOP

The first correction is eliminating loses from bloated API, the second eliminates GPU bottlenecks, the third and four corrections eliminate PCI and DDR3, and the fifth eliminates intermediate layers/'drivers'.

But that can be rewritten exactly like

9 TFLOP ~ 1.8 TFLOP + 2x_API_overhead + HSA + hUMA + GDDR5 + close_to_metal

or, reorganising again,

1.8 TFLOP + 2x_API_overhead + HSA + hUMA + GDDR5 + close_to_metal ~ 9 TFLOP

which was my original claim. Of course, I don't care if the final value is 9.2 or 6.8, because this is only about obtaining a first estimation.

P.S: The new console from Microsoft is the Xbox ONE and comes with 15 exclusives titles the first year, voice commands, run a special lightweight operative system Xbox OS (complemented with another OS for running some windows 8 apps plus a third OS that manages the switchs between both sub OSs) and, I know 21s will love this, lots of "magic" :biggrin:

It has about 8x the graphic performance of the Xbox 360 and uses an SoC APU from AMD (8 cores).

So we are 8x the power of the xbox 360 yet equivalent to a 9 TFLOP pc? xbox 360 is nowhere near equivalent to a 1 TFLOP pc.

Lets do a galego calculation for Haswell.

10-20% IPC boost (greatly exxagerated) + AVX2:2x performance boost (only useful when coded for and only in some cases) + 2x cache bandwidth (which doesn't improve performance but allows AVX2 to function properly) + TSX =5.2x Ivy bridge.

:biggrin:

Of course that's complete BS.

The fact is that adding features does not scale performance linearly. A feature that may double performance theoretically (4 opts sec vs 2 opts sec) may only see a 30% improvement in real life under idea conditions and on average something like 15% general improvement. Plus the fact that no one has any clue just what theoretical increases are possible (ie these numbers were pulled out of thin air).

For example GDDR5 does almost nothing for cpu performance but will allow HSA and hUMA to function properly.

Like scientific error you cannot linearly add these performance tweaks.

 

[Erenhardt]

So we are 8x the power of the xbox 360 yet equivalent to a 9 TFLOP pc? xbox 360 is nowhere near equivalent to a 1 TFLOP pc.

Well... one could argue that if xbox 360 can play games @720p (1Mpix) then something with 8x power of xbox 360 can play the same games @4k (8Mpix).
Here is a bench of not so demanding game @5760x1080 (6.2Mpix)

 

[futurefields]

When has 8x power ever equalled 8x performance.

 

[SPBHM]

It looks so much like ps4

isn't the Xbox using 128bit DDR3 + some embedded ram, vs pure 128bit GDDR5 for the PS4?

also the rumors always indicated that the PS4 would have a bigger GPU (but both GCN)

 

[Erenhardt]

When has 8x power ever equalled 8x performance.

Ohhh..sorry. Wrong graph. Here you go:

srsly?

 

[notty22]

Wired has some internal pictures of the Xbox one. They may come to market before PS4 with their blurred black box, lol. Which I find lame. A look at a finished console tells me, it's near production, launch.

A single 40-nanometer chip contains both the CPU and GPU rather than the two dedicated 90-nm chips needed in the 360. In fact, a custom SOC (system on a chip) module made by AMD contains the CPU/GPU chip, the memory, the controller logic, the DRAM, and the audio processors, and connects directly to the heat sink via a phase-change interface material. Whew.

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/05/xbox-one-development-photos/#slideid-138498

 

[Enigmoid]

Well... one could argue that if xbox 360 can play games @720p (1Mpix) then something with 8x power of xbox 360 can play the same games @4k (8Mpix).
Here is a bench of not so demanding game @5760x1080 (6.2Mpix)

Well at ultra settings and 4x AA?

Fact is for skyrim, the game runs pretty much at the same settings on a gt 630 (about 300 GFLOPS but runs slightly better at 720p) as it does on the console.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Looks like a cheaply built PC.

 

[sontin]

Ha, the GPU of the XDVR has only 1,2TFLOPs SP, 64GB/s off chip memory and less than 200GB/s with the eDRAM.

That is not even a midrange GPU today. Wow this "next gen" console will be faster outdated than the last generation. :|

 

[blastingcap]

Wired also says it's 40nm. http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/05/xbox-one/

Wired has some internal pictures of the Xbox one. They may come to market before PS4 with their blurred black box, lol. Which I find lame. A look at a finished console tells me, it's near production, launch.


http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/05/xbox-one-development-photos/#slideid-138498