Goodbye public option, we hardly knew ya

[Zorkorist]

Oh really. How is this different than other things people think we deserve:

Social security. Medicare. Catastrophic weather aid. Police and fire protection. Individual welfare. Corporate welfare. Foreign invader protection. Travel and maintenance of roads. (Complete health care.)

We don't necessarily 'deserve' any of these and yet they have evolved into staples and become expected over time. I think some might call it civilization.

Civilization is a loaded term... but most of your arguement seems to be centered around socialism, or communism. Both, have been proven wrong as political/economic philosophies.

 

[Zebo]

If the public option gets cut, i will never vote again, i will have lost all faith in the system.

Don't worry they are giving us a mandate to purchase insurance

The people have not owned this government for a long long time my friend.

 

[seemingly random]

Civilization is a loaded term... but most of your arguement seems to be centered around socialism, or communism. Both, have been proven wrong as political philosophies.

You do realize that all I listed except complete health care is currently part of the united states, a publicly declared, democratic and capitalistic government, right? No matter what you call it, people will scratch your eyes out if you try to take any of it from them.

 

[Zorkorist]

This is why I fall back on Civilization.

Because it it is not Civilized to steal from your neighbor.

It is not Civilelized to demaned that he pay for your aging Mother or toothing Child.

But somewhere we have given up contol to the Government, which demands, demands, and demands, in an uncivilized fashion.

One of my fVORITE lIBERTARIAN PUTS IT THIS WAY... they, (the Government) can take it by force... for anyone else, it's against the law.

 

[dennilfloss]

Remember, many Republicans are morally opposed to poor people receiving health care.

They believe poor people have some sort of fault: drug addiction, sloth, lack of faith in the Capitalist system, wrong color skin, or are just being punished by God.

It is wrong for the government and society as a whole to help these people. They should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and embrace Conservative Morals and Free Market Capitalism.

It appears that the ugly influence of calvinist predestination expressed in one's earthly condition remains strong amongst Republicans.

Protestant theologian Calvin taught that success or failure in the world was indicative of God’s favor or disfavor. If people did well, it suggested that they were among the elect who would go to heaven.

 

[seemingly random]

This is why I fall back on Civilization.

Because it it is not Civilized to steal from your neighbor.

It is not Civilelized to demaned that he pay for your aging Mother or toothing Child.

But somewhere we have given up contol to the Government, which demands, demands, and demands, in an uncivilized fashion.

One of my fVORITE lIBERTARIAN PUTS IT THIS WAY... they, (the Government) can take it by force... for anyone else, it's against the law.

Slogans are fun but in the end they're just marketing tools.

You need to stop objectifying 'the Government'. It's comprised of individuals, some of whom you might have voted to be there either directly or indirectly, lived near or gone to school or church with. It's not just this nebulous government with its hands out. There are many fingers in the till. I bet one out of two people you know makes a living as a result of gov't activity. And, some of these might be ethical.

 

[dmcowen674]

This whole dog and pony show was to push through the National ID card.

 

[0marTheZealot]

You do understand that we have the highest standing of living in the world. And why is that? Because we are socialist?

No.

It's because we believe in an ideal called the American Way.

That one man has an opportunity to succeed, buy a white fenced gabled house, find a wife, and etc.

He sure didn't know that his purpose in life was making sure some crack-head in Harlem got health insurance.

err no, we don't have the highest standard of living in the world. Not anymore. This isn't the 1950s when the US topped every measure conceivable. We are more in the middle of the pack now, eclipsed by countries like Norway, Finland, and other Nordic countries. And this just isn't on healthcare, it encompasses a huge range of factors, education, corruption, affordability of living, taxes vs services. The US is right in the middle of the pack in terms of overall quality of life in the developed world.

 

[StageLeft]

err no, we don't have the highest standard of living in the world. Not anymore. This isn't the 1950s when the US topped every measure conceivable. We are more in the middle of the pack now, eclipsed by countries like Norway, Finland, and other Nordic countries. And this just isn't on healthcare, it encompasses a huge range of factors, education, corruption, affordability of living, taxes vs services. The US is right in the middle of the pack in terms of overall quality of life in the developed world.

True, but scandanavia is an anomoly because of disproportionate oil revenues. Without those they would be faring much worse.

 

[0marTheZealot]

This is why I fall back on Civilization.

Because it it is not Civilized to steal from your neighbor.

It is not Civilelized to demaned that he pay for your aging Mother or toothing Child.

But somewhere we have given up contol to the Government, which demands, demands, and demands, in an uncivilized fashion.

One of my fVORITE lIBERTARIAN PUTS IT THIS WAY... they, (the Government) can take it by force... for anyone else, it's against the law.

Are you kidding me? You pretty much just mentioned what civilization is exactly. If people stopped looking out for one another, we devolve into anarchy. Not to mention we already tried such an experiment and it utterly failed. You know many other cultures dealt with old people? They killed them once they hit a certain age. For example, in medieval Japan, when someone hit the age of 60, they would be left out in the open on a mountain top and die of exposure. In the early part of the 20th century, there were no social nets, no laws protecting workers and we had horrific conditions. People worked 100+ hours a week for meager pennies, living in abject poverty. The "Greatest Generation" lived in abject poverty during their twilight years because they were bankrupted by paying for their own medical treatments. Before Medicare, close to 70% of all elderly people lived in poverty.

You have no problem with other parts of socialism, namely the police department, fire department, healthcare research (80+% is funded by the NSF, NIH, public universities), etc etc. We are already the most socialist nation in terms of healthcare, we spend more government dollars than every other nation in the world. Socialist healthcare is not a bad thing, 30+ developed nations have tried it, 30+ nations cover everyone and 30+ nations pay less on every measure for it and have much more to show for it.

 

[ebaycj]

That's ridiculous, Z.

Here in America, most everyone that gets in health trouble, gets healthcare.

1sr class healthcare.

We have a bunch of leeches, on the Goverment tit, but who doesn't?

-John

I highlighted what's wrong with our system, and what's right with other countries' systems.

 

[ebaycj]

When Zebo talks about health care being cheap, he's talking about Doctor's paid what UPS drivers are paid. He's talking about when you need new cars on your car, you go to the state run tire factory.

He will decide if you need or deserve health care. HE will decide if you need new tires.

-John

First off, UPS drivers make 100k -ish per year. So they're not broke.

Second off, doctors in other countries still make really good money. 250k is not out of the question.

 

[ebaycj]

Name one CEO that is making billions.

Ken Griffin, Citadel investments, 2006-2007

 

[Robor]

He was elected to fight the status quo of the corporate oligarchy. At least that's how he sold himself. Everyone knows this and he's totally turned his back on this promise everyday. I don't believe men like Sanders, Kucinich or Paul on the other side and many others would do that. So it's not like we don't have these candidates.

If by 'that' you mean get elected, you're right. :biggrin:

 

[Ausm]

Looks like the right wing stall tactics they used in both '94 and 2009 are working. It also doesn't help that the moderate Republican's bailed from the GOP and are now posing as Democrats.

 

[Robor]

No public option = victory for private insurance companies

Fixed that for you.

 

[Locut0s]

Wow the US sucks at getting any kind of liberal policy through. I use liberal here as an unbiased term for left leaning politics in general not as the slander it has come to mean in American politics.

Must suck to be liberal/left leaning person living in the US

 

[StageLeft]

First off, UPS drivers make 100k -ish per year. So they're not broke.

Second off, doctors in other countries still make really good money. 250k is not out of the question.

I just checked and they seem to make 55-70k, but that is really good money for that job. Awesome paid vacation time, too.

Doctors in other countries are paid well. Not as well as the US but still Canada has never had a problem filling all its medical schools with applicants. I believe a fairly standard bill rate for a doctor in Canada in private practice is around $125/hour to the government but on top of that they have to cover their office, secretary, etc. so it's not a huge amount of money.

 

[Robor]

err no, we don't have the highest standard of living in the world. Not anymore. This isn't the 1950s when the US topped every measure conceivable. We are more in the middle of the pack now, eclipsed by countries like Norway, Finland, and other Nordic countries. And this just isn't on healthcare, it encompasses a huge range of factors, education, corruption, affordability of living, taxes vs services. The US is right in the middle of the pack in terms of overall quality of life in the developed world.

Don't bother... Based on his posts he is living in a fantasy land.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Do you understand that countries like France, Germany and Taiwan etc insure EVERYONE for half what we pay per capita?

100% public option.

I don't know about you but I look forward to my taxes whether private taxes or public taxes going down.

Again all for half price. Think about that.

Now why can't we get there.

Not to mention to human element it's just plain cheaper if done right.

This 1/2 price thing keeps getting brought up over and over again.

So someone explain how we get health care for 1/2 off? If you eliminated the insurance companies you would get maybe 5%.

You could reimburse below cost and bankrupt the providers, or you could severely ration health care.

Just how is this magic to be done and please don't say "Private insurance sucks..." because they are a very small part of the two trillion paid each year. You might as well say that that ten dollar raise a week will allow you to go from a Geo Metro to a Mercedes.

So how precisely does this work?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

First off, UPS drivers make 100k -ish per year. So they're not broke.

You really don't have any grasp on reality do you.

 

[drebo]

Oh really. How is this different than other things people think we deserve:

Social security. Medicare. Catastrophic weather aid. Police and fire protection. Individual welfare. Corporate welfare. Foreign invader protection. Travel and maintenance of roads. (Complete health care.)

For the love of god, stop with this shit already.

You're confusing issues here. ALL of the social welfare programs you have listed here have been delegated to the states as their responsibility by the Constitution. All of them are supported by LOCAL and STATE taxes. None of them were meant to be federal programs.

Police and fire: supported by local sales taxes in most places and other local taxes in other places.
Individual and Corporate Welfare: programs that are not needed, as charity should be a choice, not an obligation.
Foreign invader protection: paid for by tariffs from other countries (though it's become so bloated that this could not hope to pay for it)
Roads and maintenance: paid for by taxes on gasoline and by truckers and by businesses with storefronts facing the road
Catastrophic weather aid: don't build your house in a tornado ally, flood plain, river basin, or below sea level and you won't have a problem.
Social Security: 401Ks and IRAs do the same thing, although better.
Medicare and Medicaid: if a state wants to implement social health care, they are free to do so, it is not the federal government's job to do so.

And, for the hell of it, because I know you'll just bring it up later:
Education: supported by local property taxes and lotto procedes

The Constitution explicitly delegated all of these (with the exception of foreign invader protection) potential responsibilities to the states for a reason. The federal government is not supposed to be involved with this and it creates unneeded beauraucratic bullshit. Why is there needed a federal Department of Education? There isn't. What is the purpose of the EPA? It doesn't have one.

Once again, however, the ones I know you are referring to in your list in the context of this thread are not RIGHTS ensured to you by the Constitution. The federal government has no authority to impose national health care or retirement plans or even income taxes.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Government already insures half the population mainly old (Medicare) and mothers and their children(Medicaid). Also you got 21,000,000 federal employees and VA. Why not insure the rest? And negotiate pricing like all other counties? That's the whole problem. We pay full retail of whatever they ask. Medical is only business I know that doesn't post prices or negotiate.

That is complete bullshit. The vast majority of people have insurance of some kind and THEY don't negotiate. They TELL health care providers what they are going to get. How would you like to run a business where someone can come in with a card and tell you how much you are going to charge them for a car or food? You would be apeshit, but that's precisely how it is in heath care today. There is NO free market. We work for the insurance companies, private and government. We're told what we can and cannot do because of the Golden Rule. He who has the gold makes the rules, and that why the average physican spends eight hours a week taking care of prior authorizations and the like on top of what his staff does. That's cost shifting. Making the provider spend his own money to take care of administrative costs of others.

 

[Ausm]

First off, UPS drivers make 100k -ish per year. So they're not broke.

Second off, doctors in other countries still make really good money. 250k is not out of the question.

Our regular UPS driver here at work has 20 years on the job and he makes 60K/year and gets 12 weeks paid vacation.

 

[cubby1223]

Do you understand that countries like France, Germany and Taiwan etc insure EVERYONE for half what we pay per capita?

Again all for half price. Think about that.

Now why can't we get there.

You're looking at health care as a percentage of GDP, and want to lower it. There are two ways to go about it, either (1) reduce medical costs while keeping GDP the same, or (2) keep medical costs the same while raising GDP. Frankly, I'd rather we raise GDP, giving us the same end result, but with a much better economy and much better quality care.

But "progressives" don't like manufacturing jobs, because manufacturing creates wealth, and wealth is bad for some reason. We have among the highest corporate tax rates in the world, perhaps we should lower that, spur on some better global competitiveness, create some wealth, and that in turn lowers the percentage health care is of GDP.

Germany and Taiwan are a lower percentage, because they actually manufacture things. They actually create wealth. It's not that their health care is cheaper, it's that the rest of their economy is stronger.