Goodbye public option, we hardly knew ya

[StageLeft]

Our regular UPS driver here at work has 20 years on the job and he makes 60K/year and gets 12 weeks paid vacation.

I didn't know you worked in Europe.

 

[Robor]

You're looking at health care as a percentage of GDP, and want to lower it. There are two ways to go about it, either (1) reduce medical costs while keeping GDP the same, or (2) keep medical costs the same while raising GDP. Frankly, I'd rather we raise GDP, giving us the same end result, but with a much better economy and much better quality care.

But "progressives" don't like manufacturing jobs, because manufacturing creates wealth, and wealth is bad for some reason. We have among the highest corporate tax rates in the world, perhaps we should lower that, spur on some better global competitiveness, create some wealth, and that in turn lowers the percentage health care is of GDP.

Germany and Taiwan are a lower percentage, because they actually manufacture things. They actually create wealth. It's not that their health care is cheaper, it's that the rest of their economy is stronger.

That's a pile of crap, especially when 'the wealthy' would create or soon ship any 'manufacturing jobs' overseas for more profit.

 

[cubby1223]

That's a pile of crap, especially when 'the wealthy' would create or soon ship any 'manufacturing jobs' overseas for more profit.

Or we could attempt to make this country more hospitable to such jobs.

 

[Balt]

You're looking at health care as a percentage of GDP, and want to lower it. There are two ways to go about it, either (1) reduce medical costs while keeping GDP the same, or (2) keep medical costs the same while raising GDP. Frankly, I'd rather we raise GDP, giving us the same end result, but with a much better economy and much better quality care.

But "progressives" don't like manufacturing jobs, because manufacturing creates wealth, and wealth is bad for some reason. We have among the highest corporate tax rates in the world, perhaps we should lower that, spur on some better global competitiveness, create some wealth, and that in turn lowers the percentage health care is of GDP.

Germany and Taiwan are a lower percentage, because they actually manufacture things. They actually create wealth. It's not that their health care is cheaper, it's that the rest of their economy is stronger.

Stop pretending you know anything about economics, because you clearly lack even a basic understanding.

 

[Robor]

Or we could attempt to make this country more hospitable to such jobs.

How are you going to compete with Mexico, China, etc when they make a fraction of what our minimum wage workers get?

 

[exar333]

You do understand that we have the highest standing of living in the world. And why is that? Because we are socialist?

No.

It's because we believe in an ideal called the American Way.

That one man has an opportunity to succeed, buy a white fenced gabled house, find a wife, and etc.

He sure didn't know that his purpose in life was making sure some crack-head in Harlem got health insurance.

+1. Health insurance is not a right.

 

[cubby1223]

Stop pretending you know anything about economics, because you clearly lack even a basic understanding.

Stop pretending you know anything about what other people are really saying with what they write, because you clearly lack even a basic understanding.

 

[cubby1223]

How are you going to compete with Mexico, China, etc when they make a fraction of what our minimum wage workers get?

Yes, that is the question, isn't it.

 

[drebo]

How are you going to compete with Mexico, China, etc when they make a fraction of what our minimum wage workers get?

Simplicity in itself: get rid of minimum wage.

Minimum wage is nothing other than a redistribution of wealth which artificially inflates people's worth. If minimum wage were to be abolished, the prices of ALL of our products would go WAY down.

 

[Ausm]

How are you going to compete with Mexico, China, etc when they make a fraction of what our minimum wage workers get?

Tax breaks for US businesses to leave jobs here and impose tariffs on countries that are trading unfairly i.e. China.

 

[Ausm]

Simplicity in itself: get rid of minimum wage.

Minimum wage is nothing other than a redistribution of wealth which artificially inflates people's worth. If minimum wage were to be abolished, the prices of ALL of our products would go WAY down.

pst hey dipshit...try living on minimum wage once it's almost impossible but that would give people of your ilk even more to bitch about because there will be even MORE people on welfare and food stamps.

 

[Robor]

Simplicity in itself: get rid of minimum wage.

Minimum wage is nothing other than a redistribution of wealth which artificially inflates people's worth. If minimum wage were to be abolished, the prices of ALL of our products would go WAY down.

Paying US workers to match Mexico, China, etc is your solution? Wow. :thumbsdown:

 

[drebo]

For anyone unwilling to engage in a little critical thinking, I'll break it down for you:

Minimum wage is a self-fulfilling prophesy. It provides the illusion that people are more wealthy or making more money than they actually are. As a result, they can "buy more" which artifically increases the demand in the free market. Because there is a relatively static suppy to most commodity items, the artificially high demand drives prices up. Higher wages do not mean more money to spend. So, the fact that their wages are higher does not, in fact, mean that they are wealthier. In fact, one might go as far as to say that minimum wage laws are DESTRUCTIVE to the overall wealth of a nation.

Let's take this one step further, though. Minimum wage laws (union contracts can be lumped here, too, although they are not unconstitutional as are minimum wage laws) not only drive up the PRICE of a good, it also drives up the COST of a good. This doubly increases prices, as now we've got increased demand and increased cost, yet static supply. Domestically, this might be okay. But, the fact of the matter is that it makes us less competitive on a global scope. A country cannot survive without outside trade.

So, under the guise of assuring people have more money, our government has effectively crippled our capability to compete in the global market while at the same time not even accomplishing the goals which they had in mind.

People on minimum wage, by your own admission, are still poor. Your solution might be to raise the minimum wage, but in reality, this would just lead to the same problem again.

The only solution is to allow the free market to determine both the prices of labor and the prices of goods. This is the only way we will ever be able to bring the US back into competitiveness in the global market.

 

[drebo]

Paying US workers to match Mexico, China, etc is your solution? Wow. :thumbsdown:

No, my solution is to let the free market do its thing.

Government intervention in the free market has done nothing but cause problems. Our current economic situation should be all the evidence you need to convince yourself of that.

 

[Balt]

Stop pretending you know anything about what other people are really saying with what they write, because you clearly lack even a basic understanding.

Nah, I'm pretty sure you have no idea what you are talking about. You can claim people misinterpreted what you said all you want, but what you said was ignorant (irrespective of any interpretation).

If you want to throw around generalities, you should at least make sure that they don't completely ignore reality. Basic economics, read about it. I recommend you start with comparative advantage.

 

[sandorski]

For anyone unwilling to engage in a little critical thinking, I'll break it down for you:

Minimum wage is a self-fulfilling prophesy. It provides the illusion that people are more wealthy or making more money than they actually are. As a result, they can "buy more" which artifically increases the demand in the free market. Because there is a relatively static suppy to most commodity items, the artificially high demand drives prices up. Higher wages do not mean more money to spend. So, the fact that their wages are higher does not, in fact, mean that they are wealthier. In fact, one might go as far as to say that minimum wage laws are DESTRUCTIVE to the overall wealth of a nation.

Let's take this one step further, though. Minimum wage laws (union contracts can be lumped here, too, although they are not unconstitutional as are minimum wage laws) not only drive up the PRICE of a good, it also drives up the COST of a good. This doubly increases prices, as now we've got increased demand and increased cost, yet static supply. Domestically, this might be okay. But, the fact of the matter is that it makes us less competitive on a global scope. A country cannot survive without outside trade.

So, under the guise of assuring people have more money, our government has effectively crippled our capability to compete in the global market while at the same time not even accomplishing the goals which they had in mind.

People on minimum wage, by your own admission, are still poor. Your solution might be to raise the minimum wage, but in reality, this would just lead to the same problem again.

The only solution is to allow the free market to determine both the prices of labor and the prices of goods. This is the only way we will ever be able to bring the US back into competitiveness in the global market.

Convoluted post of the Day. It does not work that way, at all.

 

[StageLeft]

Simplicity in itself: get rid of minimum wage.

Minimum wage is nothing other than a redistribution of wealth which artificially inflates people's worth. If minimum wage were to be abolished, the prices of ALL of our products would go WAY down.

i think minimum wage is another divisive issue that really doesn't have much relevance. Very few Americans are actually on it and most of those who are are using the money for drinking money or supplementing their money to buy bingo sheets for Wednesday night. Grown adults who actually work for a living are almost entirely above minimum wage.

No, my solution is to let the free market do its thing.

Government intervention in the free market has done nothing but cause problems. Our current economic situation should be all the evidence you need to convince yourself of that.

Government has intervened in bad ways but in history when the market was more free in the US I think it was worse for most people and better for those at the top. A purely free market may end up with a more productive country overall but at a human cost. E.g. if you happen to be crippled or something and cannot work you'd end up impoverished in a gutter unless there are enough private charities around to help you out.

 

[woodie1]

For anyone unwilling to engage in a little critical thinking, I'll break it down for you:

Minimum wage is a self-fulfilling prophesy. It provides the illusion that people are more wealthy or making more money than they actually are. As a result, they can "buy more" which artifically increases the demand in the free market. Because there is a relatively static suppy to most commodity items, the artificially high demand drives prices up. Higher wages do not mean more money to spend. So, the fact that their wages are higher does not, in fact, mean that they are wealthier. In fact, one might go as far as to say that minimum wage laws are DESTRUCTIVE to the overall wealth of a nation.

Let's take this one step further, though. Minimum wage laws (union contracts can be lumped here, too, although they are not unconstitutional as are minimum wage laws) not only drive up the PRICE of a good, it also drives up the COST of a good. This doubly increases prices, as now we've got increased demand and increased cost, yet static supply. Domestically, this might be okay. But, the fact of the matter is that it makes us less competitive on a global scope. A country cannot survive without outside trade.

So, under the guise of assuring people have more money, our government has effectively crippled our capability to compete in the global market while at the same time not even accomplishing the goals which they had in mind.

People on minimum wage, by your own admission, are still poor. Your solution might be to raise the minimum wage, but in reality, this would just lead to the same problem again.

The only solution is to allow the free market to determine both the prices of labor and the prices of goods. This is the only way we will ever be able to bring the US back into competitiveness in the global market.

+1

 

[drebo]

Convoluted post of the Day. It does not work that way, at all.

Care to elaborate, or are you just going to try and straw-man me to death?

Or do you misunderstand basic microeconomics that much?

 

[sandorski]

Care to elaborate, or are you just going to try and straw-man me to death?

Or do you misunderstand basic microeconomics that much?

Not a Strawman, look up terms before you use them.

Just compare a Minimum Wage Economy to one where none exist. You'll notice a Trend.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Care to elaborate, or are you just going to try and straw-man me to death?

Or do you misunderstand basic microeconomics that much?

You Should just Be honored That he Posted more Than a One word Answer.

 

[drebo]

i think minimum wage is another divisive issue that really doesn't have much relevance. Very few Americans are actually on it and most of those who are are using the money for drinking money or supplementing their money to buy bingo sheets for Wednesday night. Grown adults who actually work for a living are almost entirely above minimum wage.

Your point is taken, but I don't think it's quite accurate or goes quite deep enough.

Minimum wage sets a precident. In California, the lowest hourly wage you can make is $8.50/hr. As a result, someone with a year of experience thinks they should be worth $9.50/hr, etc.

Get rid of the lower-bound and the entire wage scale shifts downward, from top to bottom, dramatically lowering costs and prices.

Government has intervened in bad ways but in history when the market was more free in the US I think it was worse for most people and better for those at the top. A purely free market may end up with a more productive country overall but at a human cost. E.g. if you happen to be crippled or something and cannot work you'd end up impoverished in a gutter unless there are enough private charities around to help you out.

Emphasis added. There are. There are litterally thousands of charitable organizations in the US. Many people, though, feel as if the continual forced redistribution of wealth by the government should be enough and opt not to donate to domestic charities. Even so, charitable organizations take in a LOT of money each year.

Despite all that, though, what's wrong with bringing back the familial welfare system? If my brother can't work because he was born without a hand, I should be taking care of him, not the government. Same thing with injury. If my sister got laid off, why is it taboo for her to live with me and my wife until she gets back on her feet? Why is it the responsibility of the government?

 

[Ausm]

i think minimum wage is another divisive issue that really doesn't have much relevance. Very few Americans are actually on it and most of those who are are using the money for drinking money or supplementing their money to buy bingo sheets for Wednesday night. Grown adults who actually work for a living are almost entirely above minimum wage.
Government has intervened in bad ways but in history when the market was more free in the US I think it was worse for most people and better for those at the top. A purely free market may end up with a more productive country overall but at a human cost. E.g. if you happen to be crippled or something and cannot work you'd end up impoverished in a gutter unless there are enough private charities around to help you out.

I think there are more Adults on minimum wage then you think Skoorb. Factory starting wages were I live are minimum wage and they max out at 10 bucks/hour. Of all the factories that I work with I would say roughly 2/3 of their labor force barely makes 10 bucks/hour and that is after working there for several years.

 

[Robor]

No, my solution is to let the free market do its thing.

Government intervention in the free market has done nothing but cause problems. Our current economic situation should be all the evidence you need to convince yourself of that.

The only people who are going to work for less than minimum wage are the illegals doing it now. I thought deregulation in the mortgage/banking industries lead to the current economic situation.

 

[Robor]

continual forced redistribution of wealth by the government

You said a lot just to get that jab in again.