CIA Torture Report Set to Go Nuclear

[surfsatwerk]

we'd end up with Hilary next.

Don't temp fate imo.

 

[marincounty]

All I hear on here is that Obama has failed to prosecute any Wall street types for the economic meltdown, and here is an opportunity to find out about the biggest fuckup in U.S. history, a war against a country that never attacked us, and Republicans don't want to hear about it.
Republicans never want to hear about their colossal mistakes, but if Clinton had traded arms to Iran he would have been executed.
I don't generally like Diane Feinstein,(too conservative), but in this case she is right on.

 

[shira]

Not all, something less than 10%.
The document runs to 525 pages we can see, the bulk of the remaining 6000 will remain unavailable.

Is anyone really surprised by any of this. Wars lead to nasty deeds. Anyone been to the Goya gallery depicting the horrors of war? Castration of prisoners was routine.
The American academic Paul Fusserl (Doing Battle) saw his buddies routinely shoot German prisoners in WW2, just because they wore clothes they did not like.

Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't 'jihadi John' recently decapitated a wholly innocent aid worker.

Are Americans seriously saying that they are above petty acts of sadism? Just look at what the two sides did to each other in the US Civil War. Heard of Andersonville? Do a Wiki. Far worse than anything we learn today.

This is what guys everywhere do to defeated people they really dislike. The only surprise is that some lived through the experience.

The (practical as opposed to moral) problem with torture is that it leads to a huge volume of untestable false confessions which soak-up endless hours of intelligence cross-checking.
As I understand it, the bits of the report published today, agree that the actual torture (and being held in a coffin for a week listening to Meat Loaf at 120 db whilst being 'fed' by a rectal suppository, is torture) acknowledges that it does not work.

Did the SS doctors in Auschwitz seriously think that injecting blue dyes into the eyes of children could produce Aryans? I doubt it, but they did it anyhow.
Because they could, and they knew no one would complain.

Andersonville is really not a valid comparison. The Confederacy wasn't intentionally trying to mistreat captured Union soldiers. Rather, the North wasn't willing to do prisoner exchanges at that point in the war (a part of the North's strategy to wear down the South) AND the Confederacy barely had sufficient supplies to feed their own soldiers, let alone tens of thousands of captured Union solders.

 

[lozina]

Among the more jarring passages in the Senate Intelligence Committee’s report on CIA interrogations of terrorism suspects are descriptions of agency employees subjecting uncooperative detainees to “rectal rehydration” and “rectal feeding.”

Nope nope nope nope! Not torture! Nuh uhhh!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ffb1ec-7fb8-11e4-8882-03cf08410beb_story.html

 

[JTsyo]

Summary found on Reddit

The Committee makes the following findings and conclusions:

1: The CIA's use of its enhanced interrogation techniques was not an effective means of acquiring intelligence or gaining cooperation from detainees

2: The CIA's justification for the use of its enhanced interrogation techniques rested on inaccurate claims of their effectiveness.

3: The interrogations of CIA detainees were brutal and far worse than the CIA represented to policymakers and others.

4: The conditions of confinement for CIA detainees were harsher than the CIA had represented to policymakers and others.

5: The CIA repeatedly provided inaccurate information to the Department of Justice, impeding a proper legal analysis of the CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program.

6: The CIA has actively avoided or impeded congressional oversight of the program.

7: The CIA impeded effective White House oversight and decision-making.

8: The CIA's operation and management of the program complicated, and in some cases impeded, the national security missions of other Executive Branch agencies.

9: The CIA impeded oversight by the CIA's Office of Inspector General.

10: The CIA coordinated the release of classified information to the media, including inaccurate information concerning the effectiveness of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques.

11: The CIA was unprepared as it began operating its Detention and Interrogation Program more than six months after being granted detention authorities.

12: The CIA's management and operation of its Detention and Interrogation Program was deeply flawed throughout the program's duration, particularly so in 2002 and early 2003.

13: Two contract psychologists devised the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques and played a central role in the operation, assessments, and management of the CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program. By 2005, the CIA had overwhelmingly outsourced operations related to the program.

14: CIA detainees were subjected to coercive interrogation techniques that had not been approved by the Department of Justice or had not been authorized by CIA Headquarters.

15: The CIA did not conduct a comprehensive or accurate accounting of the number of individuals it detained, and held individuals who did not meet the legal standard for detention. The CIA's claims about the number of detainees held and subjected to its enhanced Interrogation techniques were inaccurate.

16: The CIA failed to adequately evaluate the effectiveness of its enhanced interrogation techniques.

17: The CIA rarely reprimanded or held personnel accountable for serious and significant violations, inappropriate activities, and systemic and individual management failures.

18: The CIA marginalized and ignored numerous internal critiques, criticisms, and objections concerning the operation and management of the CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program.

19: The CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program was inherently unsustainable and had effectively ended by 2006 due to unauthorized press disclosures, reduced cooperation from other nations, and legal and oversight concerns.

20: The CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program damaged the United States' standing in the world, and resulted in other significant monetary and non-monetary costs.

 

[Perknose]

Andersonville is really not a valid comparison. The Confederacy wasn't intentionally trying to mistreat captured Union soldiers.

Oh, well, in that case, it was all ok.

Here are pics of some of the survivors of Andersonville:

Rather, the North wasn't willing to do prisoner exchanges at that point in the war (a part of the North's strategy to wear down the South)

Yes, but that is NOT how or why the prisoner exchange initially broke down.

Prisoner camps were largely empty in mid-1862 because of the informal exchange system. Both sides agreed to formalize it. Negotiations resumed in July, 1862, when the Union appointed Maj. Gen. John A. Dix and the Confederacy appointed Maj. Gen. D. H. Hill. The cartel agreement established a scale of equivalents to manage the exchange of military officers and enlisted personnel. For example, a naval captain or a colonel in the army would exchange for fifteen privates or common seamen, while personnel of equal ranks would transfer man for man. Each government would appoint an agent to handle the exchange and parole of prisoners. The agreement allowed the exchange of non-combatants, such as citizens accused of disloyalty, and civilian employees of the military, and also allowed the exchange or parole of captives between the commanders of two opposing forces.

Authorities were to parole any prisoners not formally exchanged within ten days following their capture. The terms of the cartel prohibited paroled prisoners from returning to the military in any capacity including "the performance of field, garrison, police, or guard, or constabulary duty."[6]

The exchange system collapsed in 1863 because the Confederacy refused to treat black prisoners the same as whites. They said they were probably ex-slaves and belonged to their masters, not to the Union Army.[7]

Only some time later, towards the end of the war, did the North decide to oppose most big prisoner exchanges for strategic manpower reasons.

AND the Confederacy barely had sufficient supplies to feed their own soldiers, let alone tens of thousands of captured Union solders.

Look at those men above. LOOK AT THEM. They are some of the "lucky" survivors.

During a period of 14 months in Camp Sumter, located near Andersonville, Georgia, 13,000 (28%) of the 45,000 Union soldiers confined there died.[12]

Nothing excuses what happened. And, btw, conditions in many of the Northern camps were almost as bad. What transpired is a stain on us all.

 

[Caravaggio]

Andersonville is really not a valid comparison.

Well, it is certainly not identical, I grant you. But looking at the wiki page I see that 13,000 men died in the Andersonville civil war era stockade.
They were described as "walking, vermin-ridden skeletons". There was no proper sanitation. The men drank their own sewage, I understand. Look at the picture of the man who looks as if he has just walked out of Belsen. This was not an administrative error. Prisoners were starved to death in great numbers.

If you want a more recent example of US depravity, try Abu Gharib prison in Iraq. Saddam's old torture prison was, a year after his defeat, a place where a rather dim US soldier dragged naked prisoners around on dog leads and piled them up in towers, forcing them to masturbate or be beaten. If they complained, attack dogs nipped their genitals. Have you read that report?

My point is NOT that the U.S. troops and intelligence personnel are especially nasty but that defeated enemies are often the butt of the sadistic fantasies of their more powerful captors. The British castrated their Mau Mau prisoners in Kenya, in the 1950's.

I'm not blaming, I'm trying to bear witness. The big boys at school beat the new kids.
It is a vileness of the human make-up which must be consciously constrained.

 

[Jaskalas]

19th century prisoner camps lacked food? Not entirely unusual.

What does that have to do with torture in our modern age of abundance?

 

[Blanky]

So I predict a grand total of zero people go to prison over this. They should, but this is 'merica. You can torture people in the name of the government and the low brow peasants will thank you for it but if you dare sell ounce of weed it is fucking jail for you.

 

[Fern]

Oh, well, in that case, it was all ok.

Here are pics of some of the survivors of Andersonville:

-snip-

Wow, it's hard to believe that those people are actually alive.

Fern

 

[Jaskalas]

Oh, and for anyone wanting to support our "methods" in dealing with "terrorism", who still owns Afghanistan today?

Did we take it from our enemy and smite them unto ruin and surrender, or did we merely spend $billions to exchange a few lives while maintaining the status quo and their continued hold over the country?

If our use of torture is legitimized by our "war status", what war? If we were fighting a war one might suggest we'd be winning. That we'd ensure our enemy no longer existed. This is not the case. Therefore I find our extreme measures in one area do not match our overall efforts. We harmed individual "enemies" after they no longer posed a threat, but we leave the vast majority alive on the field.

There is a cognitive dissonance in our efforts on our prisoners VS our efforts in Afghanistan. One of those efforts is entirely out of line and a grave mark of defeat for this country. Either by our claimed ideals of superior morality, or our claimed urgency in winning a war.

If anything, all one can conclude from this is that the "war on terror" is a complete and utter failure and that we have done terrible things in order to achieve NOTHING.

 

[Jhhnn]

Maybe we should start with the guy who authorized the execution of a 16 year old kid.

And maybe we need to recognize that as deliberate spin-

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/23/obama-anwar-al-awlaki-son_n_3141688.html

There's no evidence to suggest that Obama ordered the killing of the younger Awlaki.

Yes, Gibbs is an idiot.

Which is not to say that I support the drone war at all, but rather to point out that accusation is not fact. The US has killed a lot of people in Yemen in support of the govt in their civil war.

 

[Victorian Gray]

And maybe we need to recognize that as deliberate spin-

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/23/obama-anwar-al-awlaki-son_n_3141688.html

There's no evidence to suggest that Obama ordered the killing of the younger Awlaki.

Yes, Gibbs is an idiot.

Which is not to say that I support the drone war at all, but rather to point out that accusation is not fact. The US has killed a lot of people in Yemen in support of the govt in their civil war.

Out of curiosity, do you condemn Obama's continuation and expansion of extra judicial assassination?

 

[berzerker60]

"We are concerned that this release could endanger the lives of Americans overseas, jeopardize U.S. relations with foreign partners, potentially incite violence, create political problems for our allies, and be used as a recruitment tool for our enemies," Republican Senators Marco Rubio and Jim Risch said in a statement on Monday.

Good to see that the Party of Small Government has no problem with the executive branch kidnapping and torturing people without any sort of trial or judicial or legislative oversight, or the executive branch lying to Congress about it, or committing war crimes. It's just people writing truthful things about it that's the problem.

Out of curiosity, do you condemn Obama's continuation and expansion of extra judicial assassination?

Don't know about him, but I sure as hell do.

This should not be a partisan issue. Those involved in this torture scheme committed heinous crimes and should be prosecuted under the law. That includes anyone in the Bush White House who it can be established knew about this and/or approved it. The Obama White House likely has committed additional heinous crimes in terms of drone strikes and assassinations of civilians, and should be held accountable for that. If you find yourself protecting the kidnapping and torture of innocent people (lots of these people in the CIA report were identified as having been mistakenly kidnapped by the CIA itself, yet still held beyond that point, not even talking about the actual terrorists) because it's bad for your political party, you need to take a hard look at your life.

 

[Zorkorist]

I agree. Everyone involved in war crimes should be prosecuted.

Releasing the report is not "coming clean." Only the prosecution of the individuals, or agencies, involved will show the world how the Government of the United States of America is against torture.

-John

 

[Jhhnn]

Out of curiosity, do you condemn Obama's continuation and expansion of extra judicial assassination?

Why is this now about Obama? I expect such diversion from the usual suspects, not you.

The CIA claims they did nothing illegal, and they have memos from Yoo & Bybee to back them up, too.

I'm not seeing the new Repub Congress calling them in to testify so as to reveal direction from the Bush White House, do you?

Darryl Issa, where are you when we need you, anyway?

 

[Zorkorist]

It's not about Obama, Jhhnn. It's about protecting the rights of Americans in combat, and worldwide.

The United States of America does not stand torture, or war crimes, and if and when discovered, the individuals or agencies involved will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

-John

 

[Blanky]

Wow, it's hard to believe that those people are actually alive.

Fern

Yea that one guy in particular I didn't think a person could be that thin and still alive.

As mentioned above humans are horrendous and we must constantly be reminded of it lest we repeat it, as we often do, because of fuck wads who don't appreciate history and that while on their righteous high horse they are easily seen as barbarians.

That the cia can do this with near impunity and most Americans are not appalled tells us all we need to know about the current state of affairs about a so called morally superior nation. Many here are still savage beasts without any appreciation for history or their innately human evil. It is just so sad how quickly people can be brought to support this torture.

 

[OutHouse]

This info release should have never been released.

 

[Brainonska511]

This info release should have never been released.

These acts should never have occurred in the first place.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Why is this now about Obama? I expect such diversion from the usual suspects, not you.

The CIA claims they did nothing illegal, and they have memos from Yoo & Bybee to back them up, too.

I'm not seeing the new Repub Congress calling them in to testify so as to reveal direction from the Bush White House, do you?

Darryl Issa, where are you when we need you, anyway?

Answer the question please.

"Which is not to say that I support the drone war at all"

Out of curiosity, do you condemn Obama's continuation and expansion of extra judicial assassination?

 

[Jhhnn]

These acts should never have occurred in the first place.

They're just a footnote to greater evil propagated on the basis of 9/11, the greatest political windfall since Pearl Harbor. The Bush admin turned that national tragedy towards very dark ends in a ruthless & cunning fashion.

 

[Jhhnn]

Answer the question please.

"Which is not to say that I support the drone war at all"

Out of curiosity, do you condemn Obama's continuation and expansion of extra judicial assassination?

Why should I answer? What does the question have to do with the topic of this thread, anyway? Should I condemn the killing of Bin Laden along with the drone war, which I've already done?

 

[OutHouse]

Why should I answer? What does the question have to do with the topic of this thread, anyway? Should I condemn the killing of Bin Laden along with the drone war, which I've already done?

You are not testifying before congress, answer the fucking question or stfu.

 

[ivwshane]

This report goes to show how gullible people are and how easily they are manipulated.

I remember quite a few posters on P&N claiming that torture not only worked but that it was necessary.

I wonder if these same people are even questioning themselves, their beliefs, or are even capable of admitting being duped.

America can no longer claim (and it's not just because of this report) the moral high ground or moral superiority, we are no different than those we call our enemies. Well we are different in that we have a better propaganda machine than they do.



I wonder how many Cheney supporters we stil have?