CIA Torture Report Set to Go Nuclear

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
The report is here: http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy1.pdf

TLDR: The CIA tortured people. The torture didn't work. The CIA lied about torturing people, about how many it tortured and lied about the effectiveness and resisted any oversight or criticism. Ultimately, the torture program has hurt the US.

Summary of Findings.
#1: The CIA's use of its enhanced interrogation techniques was not an effective means of
acquiring intelligence or gaining cooperation from detainees.

#2: The CIA's justification for the use of its enhanced interrogation techniques rested on
inaccurate claims of their effectiveness

#3: The interrogations of CIA detainees were brutal and far worse than the CIA
represented to policymakers and others.

#4: The conditions of confinement for CIA detainees were harsher than the CIA had
represented to policymakers and others.

#5: The CIA repeatedly provided inaccurate information to the Department ofJustice,
impeding a proper legal analysis of the CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program.

#6: The CIA has actively avoided or impeded congressional oversight of the program.

#7: The CIA impeded effective White House oversight and decision-making

#8: The CIA's operation and management of the program complicated, and in some cases
impeded, the national security missions of other Executive Branch agencies

#9; The CIA impeded oversight by the CIA's Office of Inspector General.

#10: The CIA coordinated the release of classified information to the media, including
inaccurate information concerning the effectiveness of the CIA's enhanced interrogation
techniques.

#11: The CIA was unprepared as it began operating its Detention and Interrogation
Program more than six months after being granted detention authorities.

#12: The CIA's management and operation of its Detention and Interrogation Program
was deeply flawed throughout the program's duration, particularly so in 2002 and early
2003.

#13: Two contract psychologists devised the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques and
played a central role in the operation, assessments, and management of the CIA's
Detention and Interrogation Program. By 2005, the CIA had overwhelmingly outsourced
operations related to the program.


#14: CIA detainees were subjected to coercive interrogation techniques that had not been
approved by the Department of Justice or had not been authorized by CIA Headquarters.


#15: The CIA did not conduct a comprehensive or accurate accounting of the number of
individuals it detained, and held individuals who did not meet the legal standard for
detention. The CIA's claims about the number of detainees held and subjected to its
enhanced Interrogation techniques were inaccurate.

#16: The CIA failed to adequately evaluate the effectiveness of its enhanced interrogation
techniques

#17: The CIA rarely reprimanded or held personnel accountable for serious and
significant violations, inappropriate activities, and systemic and individual management
failures.


#18: The CIA marginalized and ignored numerous internal critiques, criticisms, and
objections concerning the operation and management of the CIA's Detention and
Interrogation Program.



#19; The CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program was inherently unsustainable and
had effectively ended by 2006 due to unauthorized press disclosures, reduced cooperation
from other nations, and legal and oversight concerns.



#20; The CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program damaged the United States'
standing in the world, and resulted in other significant monetary and non-monetary costs.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,711
8
81
The criticism of releasing the report for the reason that it might get us in trouble is like hitting some pedestrian on the street with your car and then leaving the scene and not calling the cops because it might get you in trouble.

(It means you are an awful person)
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,869
10,659
147
daily-cartoon-141209-cia-1200.jpg
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Has anybody noticed anything the intelligence community claims they need to gather information rarely produces useful information? They wanted torture but turns out not much useful information came from it. They want to spy on citizens yet cant produce a single instance of their collection program providing useful information that stopped an attack.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,958
55,346
136
He is a RINO

It's things like this that show just how extreme the Republican Party has become in recent years. Their presidential nominee of only 6 years ago is now considered unacceptably liberal.

That says a lot more about you than it does about McCain.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,797
572
126
This report seems to explicitly say Bush wasn't at fault for this.
And Ronald Reagan was "out of the loop" on Iran-Contra.
Should we start listing all the things Obama "wasn't aware of"?

The thing is President Ford arguably did a terrible thing when he pardoned President Nixon for Watergate. It set a bad precedent where future presidents are willing to pardon their predecessors for bad behavior and more easily engage in questionable behaviors themselves...

People who turn this into your team captain is a bigger asshole than ours are behaving like idiotic children who don't know better... the problem is that it's very likely that no President will be likely to go against the bad precedent set in the wake of the Watergate Scandal.


As we have seen, the opponents have no compulsion toward the war crimes; but they are not held accountable for such.

If you're referring to Al-Qaeda operatives... their leaders have been being killed with a fair amount of regularity it seems. Unfortunately drone strikes can also kill people who are not enemy combatants and relatives of those victims may turn to terrorism.

After WWII members of the Nazi officers (and some Japanese military members iirc) were tried and found guilty of war crimes.

Unfortunately elected officials have forgotten the faces of this nation's Founding Fathers and decided that what was once a war crime is now legal....

We have pissed on their memory by allowing the torture of prisoners.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0614/p09s02-coop.html

But George Washington and his compatriots took their founding principles quite seriously. On Aug. 11, 1775, Washington sent a blistering letter to a British counterpart, Thomas Gage. He complained about gravely wounded and untreated American soldiers being thrown into a jail with common criminals.

Eight days later, despite threatening to treat British soldiers with equal cruelty, Washington admitted that he could not and would not retaliate in kind, writing: "Not only your Officers, and Soldiers have been treated with a Tenderness due to Fellow Citizens, & Brethren; but even those execrable Parricides [traitors] whose Counsels & Aid have deluged their Country with Blood, have been protected from the Fury of a justly enraged People."

Imagine that; a government on the run fighting a desperate war against a hated enemy and treating captured prisoners with compassion and decency. No doubt many of the captured British troops had intelligence that might have been useful to the Revolutionary cause – still, decent treatment was the norm. In the current war on terror, that would be described as being "soft."

Alexander Hamilton, while commanding soldiers against the British, prevented what could have been a massacre. After the siege of Yorktown, one of Hamilton's captains, eager for revenge against the British, was about to run a prisoner through with his bayonet.

Hamilton stepped in personally to stop the man, and later reported proudly: "Incapable of imitating examples of barbarity and forgetting recent provocations, the soldiers spared every man who ceased to resist."

The Founding Fathers didn't treat prisoners decently solely because they were decent people. Although their writings and ideals reveal a constant and passionate interest in essential human rights, it's important to remember that they were also pragmatists. They understood that the Revolutionary cause had to take and hold the moral high ground in order to rally popular support and exhaust the British giant. And they knew that their necks were very literally on the line were they to be captured by the British. Mistreatment of British soldiers would come back on their heads a thousandfold.

Times have changed, of course, and now it's the US that holds the upper hand from a military perspective. There is no longer any fear among US leaders that they personally will suffer the effects of cruel treatment of prisoners, and so they feel far more comfortable ordering the sort of "extraordinary" measures of interrogation and detainment that led to the Gitmo suicides.

What they overlook, of course, is that the moral high ground is still there to be taken – or lost.


The thing is we might have taken an entirely different course if a special forces team was authorized to carry out one of two plans they proposed to get Bin Laden while he was in Tora Bora...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/elite-officer-recalls-bin-laden-hunt/

Delta developed an audacious plan to come at bin Laden from the one direction he would never expect.

"We want to come in on the back door," Fury explains. "The original plan that we sent up through our higher headquarters, Delta Force wants to come in over the mountain with oxygen, coming from the Pakistan side, over the mountains and come in and get a drop on bin Laden from behind."

But they didn't take that route, because Fury says they didn't get approval from a higher level. "Whether that was Central Command all the way up to the president of the United States, I'm not sure," he says.

The next option that Delta wanted to employ was to drop hundreds of landmines in the mountain passes that led to Pakistan, which was bin Laden's escape route.

"First guy blows his leg off, everybody else stops. That allows aircraft overhead to find them. They see all these heat sources out there. Okay, there a big large group of Al Qaeda moving south. They can engage that," Fury explains.

But they didn't do that either, because Fury says that plan was also disapproved. He says he has "no idea" why.

"How often does Delta come up with a tactical plan that's disapproved by higher headquarters?" Pelley asks.


Torturing prisoners has cost the U.S. and perhaps has made it easier for terrorist groups to recruit more members. The sad thing is that Bin Laden the one who was actually responsible for 9/11 could have been killed well before he was finally killed in 2010.


.....
 
Last edited:

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
What's the ratio? Terrorists created to terrorists apprehended by CIA interrogation methods. 100 to 1 or am I understating?
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
What's the ratio? Terrorists created to terrorists apprehended by CIA interrogation methods. 100 to 1 or am I understating?

If you think the CIA using enhanced interrogation methods the sole factor in creating terrorists, you are incredibly misguided. Sure, the publication of this helps fuel the propaganda used to brainwash people into believing the US is the cause of their problems, but it certainly ins't the sole reason, nor will eliminating it slow the rate at which people convert.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,857
31,346
146
Answer the first question dumbass

So, who is more culpable in whatever fallout would have occurred from confirming that it was one of only 2 possible teams that performed the raid?

--The admin for confirming that information
--The individual SEAL members that participated in that raid, then published their stories and revealed their own identities?

I mean, who is actually more concerned about protecting who, and what? Is it about protecting the SEAL team? If so--I mean, well, think about it.

If rage must be raged on about this issue, I think it should be properly directed at the appropriate target.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
126
This report seems to explicitly say Bush wasn't at fault for this.

But...but...he and his criminal cabal of murderers, thiefs, thugs, and general incompetents shredded our Constitution and Obama is going to throw them in jail! Harvey said so!
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
508
1
0
All the nasty shit the government did in our name is about to be released to the entire world.
Not all, something less than 10%.
The document runs to 525 pages we can see, the bulk of the remaining 6000 will remain unavailable.

Is anyone really surprised by any of this. Wars lead to nasty deeds. Anyone been to the Goya gallery depicting the horrors of war? Castration of prisoners was routine.
The American academic Paul Fusserl (Doing Battle) saw his buddies routinely shoot German prisoners in WW2, just because they wore clothes they did not like.

Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't 'jihadi John' recently decapitated a wholly innocent aid worker.

Are Americans seriously saying that they are above petty acts of sadism? Just look at what the two sides did to each other in the US Civil War. Heard of Andersonville? Do a Wiki. Far worse than anything we learn today.

This is what guys everywhere do to defeated people they really dislike. The only surprise is that some lived through the experience.

The (practical as opposed to moral) problem with torture is that it leads to a huge volume of untestable false confessions which soak-up endless hours of intelligence cross-checking.
As I understand it, the bits of the report published today, agree that the actual torture (and being held in a coffin for a week listening to Meat Loaf at 120 db whilst being 'fed' by a rectal suppository, is torture) acknowledges that it does not work.

Did the SS doctors in Auschwitz seriously think that injecting blue dyes into the eyes of children could produce Aryans? I doubt it, but they did it anyhow.
Because they could, and they knew no one would complain.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
So, who is more culpable in whatever fallout would have occurred from confirming that it was one of only 2 possible teams that performed the raid?

--The admin for confirming that information
--The individual SEAL members that participated in that raid, then published their stories and revealed their own identities?

I mean, who is actually more concerned about protecting who, and what? Is it about protecting the SEAL team? If so--I mean, well, think about it.

If rage must be raged on about this issue, I think it should be properly directed at the appropriate target.

We could have this discussion is Obama hadn't already outed the team as the ones who did it.

There is no rage. Its impossible to get upset at Obama anymore. He is a tyrannical leader who continues to move the country closer to civil war and damage our alliances.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,857
31,346
146
We could have this discussion is Obama hadn't already outed the team as the ones who did it.

There is no rage. Its impossible to get upset at Obama anymore. He is a tyrannical leader who continues to move the country closer to civil war and damage our alliances.

lol....no.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,841
33,900
136
We could have this discussion is Obama hadn't already outed the team as the ones who did it.

There is no rage. Its impossible to get upset at Obama anymore. He is a tyrannical leader who continues to move the country closer to civil war and damage our alliances.
So your team lost the last two presidential elections, boo fucking hoo. Grow up.