"Why do you ask, Ornery?"
I honestly want to know if this particular case changed any minds.
"No, it's called callous revenge."
I would, because it's callous revenge!
"Considering how determined the State is to protect us from ourselves from harm."
That's YOUR side of the isle! On my side, we are trying to get away from a nanny government! We WANT law and order! We WANT justice meted out. If the death penalty falls under the category of "callous revenge", tuff sh!t. My ONLY reservation about the death penalty is having an innocent person killed. However, if a person like this sniper were found guilty with no doubt... I've got NO qualms on any level.
"Ornery, if the decision was solely yours and you had a gun held against the sniper's head, could you pull the trigger yourself?"
If I knew certainly they did it, absolutely. If he killed somebody I know, I'd rather he died much more slowly, and yes, I'd do that too!
I honestly want to know if this particular case changed any minds.
"No, it's called callous revenge."
I would, because it's callous revenge!
"Considering how determined the State is to protect us from ourselves from harm."
That's YOUR side of the isle! On my side, we are trying to get away from a nanny government! We WANT law and order! We WANT justice meted out. If the death penalty falls under the category of "callous revenge", tuff sh!t. My ONLY reservation about the death penalty is having an innocent person killed. However, if a person like this sniper were found guilty with no doubt... I've got NO qualms on any level.
"Ornery, if the decision was solely yours and you had a gun held against the sniper's head, could you pull the trigger yourself?"
If I knew certainly they did it, absolutely. If he killed somebody I know, I'd rather he died much more slowly, and yes, I'd do that too!
i'd never pull the trigger, but that's just me. i'd let the state kill the prisoners, but for me to point and shoot and have blood on my hands (no matter what kind of blood) just isn't me.
This is just turning into a death penalty discussion, and I've always been anti-death penalty. Just like the evolution threads going around this isn't going to change anybody's opinion, you're either for or against.
:Q
How much high school did you have? Did you start elementary school at an extremely young age? Or did you skip some grades?
By the way, if these two are convicted, they most certainly have earned the death penalty. The American taxpayers do not derserve to keep alive two people who enjoy blowing the brains out of people who walk past them.
LordMaul
Lifer
- Nov 16, 2000
- 15,168
- 1
- 0
No, don't kill him. I mean, common, he doesn't need to be killed for the crimes he's committed so far.
He needs to be put in solitary confinement with a dull butterknife, a food supply of maggots, dog crap, and pond water, and one(only one) Yanni song being played over and over and over again at max volume.
He needs to be put in solitary confinement with a dull butterknife, a food supply of maggots, dog crap, and pond water, and one(only one) Yanni song being played over and over and over again at max volume.
MichaelD
Lifer
- Jan 16, 2001
- 31,528
- 3
- 76
I voted once. I won't be a jerk and continue to vote. But I will bitch out loud.
Callous revenge is GOOD. It helps THE FAMILIES OF THOSE LEFT BEHIND. Earlier, someone linked to the McVeigh execution. Several victims' family members were in attendance and watched thru the one-way glass. More than one said as they left "now I can put it behind me." Or words to that effect. You know what I'm trying to say, here.
I understand Due Process and all that Happy Horsesh.t. It's one of the things this great nation was founded on. However, there's Due Process and then there's DUE PUNISHMENT.
*sigh*
Sometimes I wish that I was born back in the 1800s. Frontier days. If you were in the process of robbing someone or got caught forcing yourself on a woman, they dragged your ass out back, threw a rope over a tree and cleansed the gene pool.
If these two are found guilty, throw them in steel cage (I hate wrestling, but my idea is good) with two dozen randomly picked victims' relatives. No weapons. A good old fashioned beat-to-death with bare hands. Broadcast it live on National TV. That's what we need to get back to.
I am not a barbarian; however, I believe in shock value. This would send a message and give the victims' families some much needed peace.
Callous revenge is GOOD. It helps THE FAMILIES OF THOSE LEFT BEHIND. Earlier, someone linked to the McVeigh execution. Several victims' family members were in attendance and watched thru the one-way glass. More than one said as they left "now I can put it behind me." Or words to that effect. You know what I'm trying to say, here.
I understand Due Process and all that Happy Horsesh.t. It's one of the things this great nation was founded on. However, there's Due Process and then there's DUE PUNISHMENT.
*sigh*
Sometimes I wish that I was born back in the 1800s. Frontier days. If you were in the process of robbing someone or got caught forcing yourself on a woman, they dragged your ass out back, threw a rope over a tree and cleansed the gene pool.
If these two are found guilty, throw them in steel cage (I hate wrestling, but my idea is good) with two dozen randomly picked victims' relatives. No weapons. A good old fashioned beat-to-death with bare hands. Broadcast it live on National TV. That's what we need to get back to.
I am not a barbarian; however, I believe in shock value. This would send a message and give the victims' families some much needed peace.
After the trial, I have no problem with him being sentenced to death, I do however object to those calling for no trial, and unusual punishments such as "letting the victims families have a go at him" Let him have the shot like everyone else....
"This is just turning into a death penalty discussion, and I've always been anti-death penalty. Just like the evolution threads going around this isn't going to change anybody's opinion, you're either for or against."
I just HAD to hear anti death penalty people make excuses for NOT killing the sniper. As it is, 13.55% of the 155 people who voted in the poll, have switched from their position, at least for this case. It's not scientific. It's not a representation of the general population, but it shows people DO change their opinion.
I just HAD to hear anti death penalty people make excuses for NOT killing the sniper. As it is, 13.55% of the 155 people who voted in the poll, have switched from their position, at least for this case. It's not scientific. It's not a representation of the general population, but it shows people DO change their opinion.
The sad thing is that these guys will be rabidly defended by attorneys, then once they get to prison they will be hereos to the pipulation therin.
A question was asked if Onery could pull the trigger in order to end this bs. I do not know (but I could guess he would say yes) . I personallyam sure I could and would.
I am conserviative, although I am still not %100 behind the death penaty because of the way it is handed out...Susan Smith, Andrea Yates???
We do need to revamp our Justice System.
Hear me now and Listen to me later
Hank
A question was asked if Onery could pull the trigger in order to end this bs. I do not know (but I could guess he would say yes) . I personallyam sure I could and would.
I am conserviative, although I am still not %100 behind the death penaty because of the way it is handed out...Susan Smith, Andrea Yates???
We do need to revamp our Justice System.
Hear me now and Listen to me later
Hank
Sorry, as much as I want the guy dead, I don't think killing is warranted, even in state approved justice.
Self-defense is one thing, killing someone in the name of "justice" is another. What right do I have to take another's life?
If it were my wife, sure I'd be mad, and if I got the chance, I might kill him. That doesn't make it right, and I would hope I could keep myself from doing it.
The idea of homeschooling never crossed my mind.
It's probably something I could have used up until high school....
This might surprise some, but I can't vote.....
I claim to be a Christian. I must have it in my heart to forgive. That is a personal choice.
That does not mean I'm not for punishment that can include death for certain crimes. It means that I cannot personally condemn any person to death for the crimes I did not witness or were done to my family in my presence.
We have created a society that decides the fate of one accused of a crime. The fate MUST be decided on the basis of fact, circumstance and most importantly, lack of personal involvement. Personal involvement leads to judgement without the need for fact or circumstance.
In other words, YOU may be just as guilty as the accused!
Revenge is completely wrong unless there is no justice at all. It is my feeling that although our justice system is far from fault, we MUST trust it to do what needs to be done.
I can see what violence and hate can do to you and I. I don't like it but I see that it just might be because our system of justice is no longer blind. It can be swayed by the media. By political influence and a misinformed public can mistakenly cause injustice.
My agreement with black leaders on this subject is profound. Justice IS for sale! Very few of the rich or those with influence ever get punished, but if a person must depend on a public defender or lessor lawyer...may the Lord have mercy, it's all over!
One of the big reasons I vote Conservative and therefore Republican is the issue of justice. I prefer those judges appointed thatenforce the letter of the law and do not adapt the law ignoring precedence. When we subvert the meaning and intent of a law, we lessen it and lessen justice.
Our reaction to this has been to write more laws and more laws. Today not ONE PERSON can even comprehend the scope of law. Therefore there can be no justice! A jury of peers for these guys will be black and Muslem and they must have worked at The Million Man March as a security guard! Trial Lawyers have completely negated any form of justice!
Yes, in large part it is the 'bleeding hearts' that have put us in this situation, but none of us are without blame.
Some kind of 'justice' will be served to be sure, but as for me personally?
May God have mercy on their souls. I will look to him for strength because there is no real justice on this earth, only what we pretend to be justice. In my heart I just pray that understanding and love for my fellow man will prevail.
God will deliver the ultimate justice for each one of us.
I claim to be a Christian. I must have it in my heart to forgive. That is a personal choice.
That does not mean I'm not for punishment that can include death for certain crimes. It means that I cannot personally condemn any person to death for the crimes I did not witness or were done to my family in my presence.
We have created a society that decides the fate of one accused of a crime. The fate MUST be decided on the basis of fact, circumstance and most importantly, lack of personal involvement. Personal involvement leads to judgement without the need for fact or circumstance.
In other words, YOU may be just as guilty as the accused!
Revenge is completely wrong unless there is no justice at all. It is my feeling that although our justice system is far from fault, we MUST trust it to do what needs to be done.
I can see what violence and hate can do to you and I. I don't like it but I see that it just might be because our system of justice is no longer blind. It can be swayed by the media. By political influence and a misinformed public can mistakenly cause injustice.
My agreement with black leaders on this subject is profound. Justice IS for sale! Very few of the rich or those with influence ever get punished, but if a person must depend on a public defender or lessor lawyer...may the Lord have mercy, it's all over!
One of the big reasons I vote Conservative and therefore Republican is the issue of justice. I prefer those judges appointed thatenforce the letter of the law and do not adapt the law ignoring precedence. When we subvert the meaning and intent of a law, we lessen it and lessen justice.
Our reaction to this has been to write more laws and more laws. Today not ONE PERSON can even comprehend the scope of law. Therefore there can be no justice! A jury of peers for these guys will be black and Muslem and they must have worked at The Million Man March as a security guard! Trial Lawyers have completely negated any form of justice!
Yes, in large part it is the 'bleeding hearts' that have put us in this situation, but none of us are without blame.
Some kind of 'justice' will be served to be sure, but as for me personally?
May God have mercy on their souls. I will look to him for strength because there is no real justice on this earth, only what we pretend to be justice. In my heart I just pray that understanding and love for my fellow man will prevail.
God will deliver the ultimate justice for each one of us.
Ornery, When you say, "I honestly want to know if this particular case changed any minds." that sounds like a pretty emotionally detached neutral sounding kind of curiosity not in keeping with the profound heat you put in other statements, "If I knew certainly they did it, absolutely. If he killed somebody I know, I'd rather he died much more slowly, and yes, I'd do that too!" for example. I bit later you say to somebody else, "I just HAD to hear anti death penalty people make excuses for NOT killing the sniper." Putting those two together and I'd say your answer to me wasn't wholly genuine or at least very comprehensive.
Maybe I was expecting too much from a simple question, because I at least should be aware enough to know that generally people don't have much idea at all as to what their motivation is. I guess probably knowing ones motivation is something we even prefer not to look at, because it can often be not very pretty, or very self flattering.
I would guess, for example, that you are pissed at the sniper, so pissed, perhaps, and want him so dead, that, maybe, it even troubles you a bit. That might not consciously of course, but enough that the thought of people having a contrary opinion, not feeling that angry themselves, also pisses you off. And maybe you want to get at them too so you can shut up that little voice of doubt inside. That's just a guess, of course, I could be wrong.
But I'm in the habit of going with my guesses; enough darts and you generally hit something, they say, so just in case, I'll play along. But of course my intention would not be to silence any such voice, but to bring it to the fore and let it roar.
Suddenly I recall a saying and I don't know if I remember it correctly or not. Did Christ say that how you treat the least among us is how you will treat me. Maybe I should see if I can google that:
Yes, ?Matt.25:31-46. This is the familiar last judgement text where the king divides the sheep from the goats, ending with the equally familiar "in so much as you have done it unto the least of these, you have done it to me".
What could this mean. Well I'm only one person, and not a Christian one at that, so I could be wrong, but I think he means this:
Who is Christ, this me that you treat as you treat the least? If it is not Christ, himself, as it would seem Christians would say, it would at minimum be that thing of which Christ is a representation, something sacred or divine, either God, or if that's not your thing, than something of which God is a symbol. Well for me that is the true self, the real self, the enlightened being, the Buddha, the one we all are and don't know we are.
And what if instead of how we treat the least among us, it's the other way round. What if it's how we treat our own true self is how we threat the least among us. Well that, if it were true, might cause an intelligent person to sit up and take notice. Naturally I don't expect that to happen since I don't think we?re in any more command of our brains than we are of any other aspects of our self. But assuming it's true than the way you feel about the sniper and what you want to do to him is what you have actually done and do to yourself, why I can imagine why occasionally you might get curious as to whether anybody's changed their mind. Of course you want to change your mind. You'd love to change your mind. You're dying to change it, but also dying because you can't. It's kind of like being crucified isn't it? It also kind of makes you want to crucify somebody yourself. Yup, this kind of information makes people a little bit edgy and want to 'have a parade'.
Now Jesus was one hell of a dude, er, maybe one heavenly dude, and I wouldn't want even to pretend to be the kind of Bleeding Heart, he was, but it has affected the way I look at things. I can see the self-hate, feel it sort of at times, or see how it works indirectly. I haven't made it let go, but I try not to feed it like a beast. We are all filled with rage that we were diverted, perverted and subverted too, however John Lenon put it in that song I forget. We are just waiting for the PROPER JUSTIFICATION to come along to dump our hate, to purge ourselves of pent up frustration. It?s cathartic, but not curative so long as we remain unconscious of the source and were we picked it up. To me that?s the job of self-exploration and the inner journey and in modern terms, maybe what psychiatry will someday become.
So the reason you forgive the sniper is because the way you hate him is the way you hate yourself. That doesn?t mean you let him go or have any expectation that he?s going to change. It means you know what drove him because you?ve got a case of it yourself. Ultimately it would be nice to be free, to love and fully have your self in totality. In the mean time it?s a journey, and wherever you are on it, I wish you well. I know that inwardly I am the least among us, as in ?that?s how I feel?. I put Jesus on the cross. He did say, did he not, ?Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.?
Maybe I was expecting too much from a simple question, because I at least should be aware enough to know that generally people don't have much idea at all as to what their motivation is. I guess probably knowing ones motivation is something we even prefer not to look at, because it can often be not very pretty, or very self flattering.
I would guess, for example, that you are pissed at the sniper, so pissed, perhaps, and want him so dead, that, maybe, it even troubles you a bit. That might not consciously of course, but enough that the thought of people having a contrary opinion, not feeling that angry themselves, also pisses you off. And maybe you want to get at them too so you can shut up that little voice of doubt inside. That's just a guess, of course, I could be wrong.
But I'm in the habit of going with my guesses; enough darts and you generally hit something, they say, so just in case, I'll play along. But of course my intention would not be to silence any such voice, but to bring it to the fore and let it roar.
Suddenly I recall a saying and I don't know if I remember it correctly or not. Did Christ say that how you treat the least among us is how you will treat me. Maybe I should see if I can google that:
Yes, ?Matt.25:31-46. This is the familiar last judgement text where the king divides the sheep from the goats, ending with the equally familiar "in so much as you have done it unto the least of these, you have done it to me".
What could this mean. Well I'm only one person, and not a Christian one at that, so I could be wrong, but I think he means this:
Who is Christ, this me that you treat as you treat the least? If it is not Christ, himself, as it would seem Christians would say, it would at minimum be that thing of which Christ is a representation, something sacred or divine, either God, or if that's not your thing, than something of which God is a symbol. Well for me that is the true self, the real self, the enlightened being, the Buddha, the one we all are and don't know we are.
And what if instead of how we treat the least among us, it's the other way round. What if it's how we treat our own true self is how we threat the least among us. Well that, if it were true, might cause an intelligent person to sit up and take notice. Naturally I don't expect that to happen since I don't think we?re in any more command of our brains than we are of any other aspects of our self. But assuming it's true than the way you feel about the sniper and what you want to do to him is what you have actually done and do to yourself, why I can imagine why occasionally you might get curious as to whether anybody's changed their mind. Of course you want to change your mind. You'd love to change your mind. You're dying to change it, but also dying because you can't. It's kind of like being crucified isn't it? It also kind of makes you want to crucify somebody yourself. Yup, this kind of information makes people a little bit edgy and want to 'have a parade'.
Now Jesus was one hell of a dude, er, maybe one heavenly dude, and I wouldn't want even to pretend to be the kind of Bleeding Heart, he was, but it has affected the way I look at things. I can see the self-hate, feel it sort of at times, or see how it works indirectly. I haven't made it let go, but I try not to feed it like a beast. We are all filled with rage that we were diverted, perverted and subverted too, however John Lenon put it in that song I forget. We are just waiting for the PROPER JUSTIFICATION to come along to dump our hate, to purge ourselves of pent up frustration. It?s cathartic, but not curative so long as we remain unconscious of the source and were we picked it up. To me that?s the job of self-exploration and the inner journey and in modern terms, maybe what psychiatry will someday become.
So the reason you forgive the sniper is because the way you hate him is the way you hate yourself. That doesn?t mean you let him go or have any expectation that he?s going to change. It means you know what drove him because you?ve got a case of it yourself. Ultimately it would be nice to be free, to love and fully have your self in totality. In the mean time it?s a journey, and wherever you are on it, I wish you well. I know that inwardly I am the least among us, as in ?that?s how I feel?. I put Jesus on the cross. He did say, did he not, ?Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.?
Originally posted by: Stark
Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man."
Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."
Exodus 21:12 "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee. 14 "But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die."
I wouldn't rely on the old testament for advice on life and death. It's based heavily upon ancient Mediterranean law codes. If you're going to use the Bible, I'd suggest using the new testament.
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Hell China executes more people than Texas.Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
why not be like china and work them in camps or whatever
heh,
:Q
anyways, with our prison population we could almost under cut chinas low labour costs
Poor choice of a quote man. In case you're not familiar with it, it hung on the gate of Auschwitz. Not much to joke about.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
Originally posted by: sparkyclarky
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Hell China executes more people than Texas.Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
why not be like china and work them in camps or whatever
heh,
:Q
anyways, with our prison population we could almost under cut chinas low labour costs
Poor choice of a quote man. In case you're not familiar with it, it hung on the gate of Auschwitz. Not much to joke about.
u win the prize
i thought no one would catch it. hence the smiley*edit i mean the shocked one
Nope, don't read too much into it Monnbeam. I've always felt the death penalty is needed. I feel it's barbaric, vengeful, and justice served for certain crimes. I believe it passionately. I couldn't imagine anybody defending the sniper's "right to live", while the issue is so fresh. It looks like reasonable doubt is going to be a given too, so that just leaves the far left leaning, "soft on crime", "give 'em another chance" argument to be heard. It's going to ring pretty hollow in light of all the bodies piled up by this, uh, "least among us".
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