You have a lot of good reasons for wanting murderers murdered, Ornery, revenge, punishment for crimes etc. I bet most murderers have exactly the same reasons for killing in the first place. You will find very few people who think of themselves as evil. They all have good reasons to justify their actions. That's why we have a commandment against murder. It's to remind us that our own good reasons, however good we know them to be, are prohibited by God. The human mind in its natural state always self justifies anything it wants. Because each of us is insane, we add to the totality of insanity in the world. It is from that insanity that all evil springs. We are all guilty.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
Originally posted by: Ornery
lalalalalala!!
Such is the echo heard between this turnip's ears day and night.
God knows cold killers deserve the same consideration as innocent babies!
your arguement is based on the assumption that a fetus, from one cell on is equal to that of a full human being. sorry, that isn't the case
you have the right to believe so, but that doesn't make it true. calling it an innocent baby is a simple "liberal" appeal to emotion. would you call a single cell fertilized egg an innocent baby too? making logical leaps aren't we? whos the turnip eh?dont forget those baby murders at fertility clinics. so many unused fertilized eggs, but wait they are creating life for the purpose of having children. its not so simple is it.
you also make the false assumption that we have a perfect justice system. only truely guilty people get sentenced to death. last i checked some state is suffering fall out after more then half of the death penalty cases were thrown out. but wait, gotta break a few eggs to make an omlet eh?
turnip indeed. once convicted in a court of law, execute him.
unless somehow he is not responsible for such actions if he is insane.
that would make him one danged calculating and precise psycho.
that would be the suck if he wasnt crazy and got off pleading insanity. but i suppose that would have to happen quite frequently in our court process, which if followed strictly (not taking into account the heavy handed works of overzealous prosecutors and the likes of OJ and his $30 million legal fund), heavily favors the accused in general.
theres some saying by one of our forefathers(?) its better that 9 murderers get not guilty verdicts and an innocent man let off, than all ten of them getting guily verdicts - something like that can someone correct me?
unless somehow he is not responsible for such actions if he is insane.
that would make him one danged calculating and precise psycho.
that would be the suck if he wasnt crazy and got off pleading insanity. but i suppose that would have to happen quite frequently in our court process, which if followed strictly (not taking into account the heavy handed works of overzealous prosecutors and the likes of OJ and his $30 million legal fund), heavily favors the accused in general.
theres some saying by one of our forefathers(?) its better that 9 murderers get not guilty verdicts and an innocent man let off, than all ten of them getting guily verdicts - something like that can someone correct me?
good point moonbeam, i think that killing out of vengeance is wrong, but for punishment of crimes convicted and the order of society seem like good reasons. cause its yea true it can have dastardly effects on our society - violence breeding more violence etc.
what do YOU suggest or think should be done to the sniper if he is convicted?
life imprisonment, pardoned, nothing, rehabilitation program... what?
Dulanic
Diamond Member
- Oct 27, 2000
- 9,968
- 592
- 136
I am against the death penalty except in a few circumstances and if there is NOOOO question they commited the crime. Some people deny it but out justice system is far from perfect and there are innocent people on death row. In this case.. well there isnt much of a question, they did it and considering how much harm they did... kill em. Any child crimes (killing, raping etc..), any sexual crimes, or serial killers... I agree death sentance is warranted. But most other crimes I dont agree with the death penalty. And this isnt a easy view to keep for me after someone I know lost their father in a robbery while he was working at a convience store, sometimes I doubt my view on it... but I think a life sentance is a better choice, its not worth risking innocent peoples lives who were wrongly convicted.
" I bet most murderers have exactly the same reasons for killing in the first place."
The insane ones get off "by reason of insanity". The rest get what they deserve and they know it.
"American government telling women that they do not have the right to control their own bodies."
Every US citizen, including the unborn, are entitled to the same protection under the Constitution. A baby one hour shy of birth is entitled to the same rights as one born an hour ago, IMO. I think we're only a couple appointments away from making this the law.
Do you personally have any qualms about doing away with third trimester, or partial birth abortions? Most people in this country are appalled by them. Not you though, eh?
The insane ones get off "by reason of insanity". The rest get what they deserve and they know it.
"American government telling women that they do not have the right to control their own bodies."
Every US citizen, including the unborn, are entitled to the same protection under the Constitution. A baby one hour shy of birth is entitled to the same rights as one born an hour ago, IMO. I think we're only a couple appointments away from making this the law.
Do you personally have any qualms about doing away with third trimester, or partial birth abortions? Most people in this country are appalled by them. Not you though, eh?
- It is better to let ten guilty men go free than to convict a single innocent person.
Oh, after months of lurking and months of not visiting AT I find myself drawn to respond to this flamebait. If you really want people's opinions, keep your mind open and (if you must) make judgements after you've heard what people have to say. Starting your post with "Any bleeding hearts" is a straight road to a flamefest.
All that aside, (and let it be known that I did not read all the posts so far) I thought I'd throw in my opinion:
Yes, I oppose the death penalty. No, not because I believe in some innate "right to live," and not because I think that all criminals can be reformed (I don't) but because the death penalty is intrinsically a flawed method of punishment. All judicial systems are prone to make mistakes, and by executing people you don't give yourself much leeway for correction.
That may not apply in this particular case, because from what I've read it seems that its a pretty cut and dry case, however, if you are going to acknowledge that the death penalty is flawed*, then you must acknowledge that to all criminals, no matter how clear their cases may seem.
*<< Since 1973, 102 prisoners have been released from death row in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death. Some had come close to execution after spending many years under sentence of death. Recurring features in their cases include prosecutorial or police misconduct; the use of unreliable witness testimony, physical evidence, or confessions; and inadequate defence representation
...
The Governor of the US state of Illinois, George Ryan, declared a moratorium on executions in January 2000. His decision followed the exoneration of the 13th death row prisoner found to have been wrongfully convicted in the state since the USA reinstated the death penalty in 1977. During the same period, 12 other Illinois prisoners had been executed. >>
Furthermore, the United States' practices regarding the death penalty are among the harshest in the world. We stand alone with Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen as the only countries to have executed child offenders in the past decade. Quite company!
Funny that, as of now, our primary complaint against Iraq is that they have violated U.N. treaties/sanctions, while we execute minors in staunch violation of organizations such as The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the American Convention on Human Rights and the Convention on the Rights of the Child.
Bleeding heart? Maybe, but as a citizen of the United States I refuse to have the blood of innocent people on my hands.
Edit: Link
All that aside, (and let it be known that I did not read all the posts so far) I thought I'd throw in my opinion:
Yes, I oppose the death penalty. No, not because I believe in some innate "right to live," and not because I think that all criminals can be reformed (I don't) but because the death penalty is intrinsically a flawed method of punishment. All judicial systems are prone to make mistakes, and by executing people you don't give yourself much leeway for correction.
That may not apply in this particular case, because from what I've read it seems that its a pretty cut and dry case, however, if you are going to acknowledge that the death penalty is flawed*, then you must acknowledge that to all criminals, no matter how clear their cases may seem.
*<< Since 1973, 102 prisoners have been released from death row in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death. Some had come close to execution after spending many years under sentence of death. Recurring features in their cases include prosecutorial or police misconduct; the use of unreliable witness testimony, physical evidence, or confessions; and inadequate defence representation
...
The Governor of the US state of Illinois, George Ryan, declared a moratorium on executions in January 2000. His decision followed the exoneration of the 13th death row prisoner found to have been wrongfully convicted in the state since the USA reinstated the death penalty in 1977. During the same period, 12 other Illinois prisoners had been executed. >>
Furthermore, the United States' practices regarding the death penalty are among the harshest in the world. We stand alone with Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen as the only countries to have executed child offenders in the past decade. Quite company!
Funny that, as of now, our primary complaint against Iraq is that they have violated U.N. treaties/sanctions, while we execute minors in staunch violation of organizations such as The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the American Convention on Human Rights and the Convention on the Rights of the Child.
Bleeding heart? Maybe, but as a citizen of the United States I refuse to have the blood of innocent people on my hands.
Edit: Link
Ornery, how is it that they know it, but you don't.
darrem, I guess I would wish on them the worst punishment I can imagine. In my opinion the worst thing I can think of is remorse and regret, to feel ones guilt. So I guess I would want that they to have to work and all their income to go to Moslem poor or whatever causes they thought they supported. The contrast between becoming, probably for the first time in their lives, of some real usefulness as compared to the uselessly wasteful path they chose might just make that happen. To discover that your whole life was a waste and that you killed. It wouldn't be a very happy thing to see. And I would make the prisons in such a way that they might be able to earn more and advance, to become real powerhouses of giving so that from all that waste there might be some redemption. And just think what it would feel like to have made something of yourself in jail thinking what you might have become free. And if there were no redemption, there would still be the income and the charity.
darrem, I guess I would wish on them the worst punishment I can imagine. In my opinion the worst thing I can think of is remorse and regret, to feel ones guilt. So I guess I would want that they to have to work and all their income to go to Moslem poor or whatever causes they thought they supported. The contrast between becoming, probably for the first time in their lives, of some real usefulness as compared to the uselessly wasteful path they chose might just make that happen. To discover that your whole life was a waste and that you killed. It wouldn't be a very happy thing to see. And I would make the prisons in such a way that they might be able to earn more and advance, to become real powerhouses of giving so that from all that waste there might be some redemption. And just think what it would feel like to have made something of yourself in jail thinking what you might have become free. And if there were no redemption, there would still be the income and the charity.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
funny. ornery is "going the liberal route" in appealing to emotion again. how many late term abortions are there? ah yes, a small percentage of the whole, and for good reason. it is done in extreme situations.
no ones going to argue that an hour before birth the baby becomes viable. the problem is that some people don't see a line between a fertilized egg and a 9 month old.
that being said, people don't abort 9 month olds unless the mothers life is in danger or the baby is either still born or is a victim of extreme malformation.
in any case, your arguement that a fetus is the same as a full person is shaky at best.
no ones going to argue that an hour before birth the baby becomes viable. the problem is that some people don't see a line between a fertilized egg and a 9 month old.
that being said, people don't abort 9 month olds unless the mothers life is in danger or the baby is either still born or is a victim of extreme malformation.
in any case, your arguement that a fetus is the same as a full person is shaky at best.
"I refuse to have the blood of innocent people on my hands."
How about the blood of these snipers? I wanted to know specifically about these two only. The issue about mistakes falls by the wayside in this case, that's why it makes good fodder.
Too bad about the "bleeding heart" moniker, but that's the only way to distinguish Libertarian type liberals from people like yourself. If you've got a better handle, I'll use it!
Edit: "...And just think what it would feel like to have made something of yourself in jail thinking what you might have become free..."
Guess I'm just a neandertal, because I'll never get past the fact that these killer's victims will NEVER ever have any more feelings of any kind. They'll NEVER be able to make anything of themselves from now on thanks to these animals.
Weeks 7 & 8 - The embryo is now 1 inch in length and begins to take on a human appearance. The hands and feet are recognizable...
...ugh. Just a couple more judicial appointments...
How about the blood of these snipers? I wanted to know specifically about these two only. The issue about mistakes falls by the wayside in this case, that's why it makes good fodder.
Too bad about the "bleeding heart" moniker, but that's the only way to distinguish Libertarian type liberals from people like yourself. If you've got a better handle, I'll use it!
Edit: "...And just think what it would feel like to have made something of yourself in jail thinking what you might have become free..."
Guess I'm just a neandertal, because I'll never get past the fact that these killer's victims will NEVER ever have any more feelings of any kind. They'll NEVER be able to make anything of themselves from now on thanks to these animals.
Weeks 7 & 8 - The embryo is now 1 inch in length and begins to take on a human appearance. The hands and feet are recognizable...
...ugh. Just a couple more judicial appointments...
I haven't killed anyone. The two snipers have blood on THEIR hands, which was THEIR choice and will be THEIR responsibility, and what will come will be THEIR consequences.
And your comment that my "mistakes" argument doesn't apply to these two criminals shows that maybe you need to read my comments again. If you extend priveledges to one criminal, they must go to all criminals. MISTAKES HAPPEN!
If "bleeding heart" is the only way you feel you can describe someone who can see the big picture, I guess I'll take it.
And your comment that my "mistakes" argument doesn't apply to these two criminals shows that maybe you need to read my comments again. If you extend priveledges to one criminal, they must go to all criminals. MISTAKES HAPPEN!
If "bleeding heart" is the only way you feel you can describe someone who can see the big picture, I guess I'll take it.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
following ornerys decision to post pics.
*warning, these are disturbing, do not click if you are not prepared*
you want to post disturbing pictures to illicit emotion instead of reason? should a baby suffering from Harlequin Ichthyosis be born in the first place? its fatal.
Harlequin Ichthyosis
Harlequin Ichthyosis
i don't think you want to see pictures of babies with their brains developed outside their brain. life is not pretty.
*warning, these are disturbing, do not click if you are not prepared*
you want to post disturbing pictures to illicit emotion instead of reason? should a baby suffering from Harlequin Ichthyosis be born in the first place? its fatal.
Harlequin Ichthyosis
Harlequin Ichthyosis
i don't think you want to see pictures of babies with their brains developed outside their brain. life is not pretty.
I didn't link to "images" for a reason. Simply a diagram. If you posted links to graphic images, you better remove them. Last warning, and it may be too late...
Edit: Mistakes happen... no sh|t!
Edit: Mistakes happen... no sh|t!
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
if the mod deems medical pictures and diagrams inappropriate, then so be it.
showing a desease is simply that, not everything in nature is pretty. perhaps we are sheltered.
Key findings:
Harlequin Ichthyosis
Other names: harlequin fetus
Inheritance: autosomal recessive
skin: extremely thick scale encases the entire fetus; deep fissures in scale develop after birth; thick scale causes eversion of the lips (eclabium) and eyelids (ectropion); ears and digits may appear malformed, owing in part to the thick scale that envelops them
Associated findings: in some, none; short stature is common in survivors; neurologic, kidney and lung abnormalities have been described
Age at first appearance: birth
Long-term course: premature birth common; early death may occur from complications of prematurity and/or constriction caused by the thick scale, from infection or from dehydration; survivors have the appearance of lamellar ichthyosis or congenital ichthyosiform erythroderma
Diagnostic tests: skin biopsy for electron microscopy is highly suggestive
Abnormal gene: unknown; may have several causes
showing a desease is simply that, not everything in nature is pretty. perhaps we are sheltered.
Key findings:
Harlequin Ichthyosis
Other names: harlequin fetus
Inheritance: autosomal recessive
skin: extremely thick scale encases the entire fetus; deep fissures in scale develop after birth; thick scale causes eversion of the lips (eclabium) and eyelids (ectropion); ears and digits may appear malformed, owing in part to the thick scale that envelops them
Associated findings: in some, none; short stature is common in survivors; neurologic, kidney and lung abnormalities have been described
Age at first appearance: birth
Long-term course: premature birth common; early death may occur from complications of prematurity and/or constriction caused by the thick scale, from infection or from dehydration; survivors have the appearance of lamellar ichthyosis or congenital ichthyosiform erythroderma
Diagnostic tests: skin biopsy for electron microscopy is highly suggestive
Abnormal gene: unknown; may have several causes
It's a poor argument anyway, unless you want to argue for euthanasia, but I wouldn't put it past you.
Shooting them would be too fast a death. Use something that should make them suffer. eventually shot in the abdomen with high caliber bullet.
Calin
Calin
i'm against killing the sniper.
killing is evil. so i see no reason for us to do the same. if i was in charge of things, i would put the both of them away in two very small rooms for the rest of their natural lives.
make no attempt to complicate the issue- killing is evil.
-reader
killing is evil. so i see no reason for us to do the same. if i was in charge of things, i would put the both of them away in two very small rooms for the rest of their natural lives.
make no attempt to complicate the issue- killing is evil.
-reader
i'm against interning the sniper.
internment is evil. so i see no reason for us to do the same. if i was in charge of things, i would put the both of them away in two very small neighborhoods for the rest of their natural lives.
make no attempt to complicate the issue- internment is evil.
- bleeding heart liberal
internment is evil. so i see no reason for us to do the same. if i was in charge of things, i would put the both of them away in two very small neighborhoods for the rest of their natural lives.
make no attempt to complicate the issue- internment is evil.
- bleeding heart liberal
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
News NVIDIA and Intel to Develop AI Infrastructure and Personal Computing Products- Started by poke01
- Replies: 411
Facebook
Twitter