Yeah GOP!

[chess9]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: chess9
So....

We give Detroit $14 billion dollars while millions of people are losing their jobs, credit availability is almost at zero, Americans have low esteem for American made cars, people are wary of buying from a failing automaker, consumer confidence is at historic lows...YET

Someone obviously is delusional enough to think that there are plenty of Americans who will actually buy American cars.

Please explain to me how doing this makes any sense?

Are we prepared to spend $200 billion on the automakers to keep them afloat for at least one and maybe two years? How deep will we go?

We survived the Great Depression, Two World Wars and George W. Bush (almost), so I think we can survive the loss of the Big Three.

The big pain is coming and this bailout won't stop it, but WILL make the pain worse. This is like giving aspirin to someone with a ruptured appendix. The patient is going to get very sick because the remedy is inappropriate.

What was it Einstein said? ""Two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former".

-Robert

Do you even know what you're talking about? GM is still outselling Toyota. The American public has lost confidence in the economy, not the US auto industry. EVERYONE is losing sales even Toyota and Honda.


http://online.wsj.com/mdc/publ...osales.html#autosalesE

Thanks for making my point, in part. GM may be outselling Toyota, but they are bleeding money like they have a severed artery. And GM has been losing market share for years to the Japanese. You need an historical perspective young man. Thirty years ago very few people would buy Japanese cars. Today, GM may be outselling Toyota in the USA, but is that a point worth making? Toyota is the world's largest car maker, and they are beating GM is almost all of the world's markets and competing just short of parity here.

But, even if your point were worth making, people aren't going to be buying cars for another year at least. Retrenchment in all sectors is just now picking up steam, so it's anyone's guess just how deep and how long this recession will be. I've seen estimates from 6 months to 3 years. But, as I said, thanks for making that point for me as well, though you fail to answer the question: "Who is going to be buying cars in America?"

Show me you know what YOU are talking about.

-Robert

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: chess9
So....

We give Detroit $14 billion dollars while millions of people are losing their jobs, credit availability is almost at zero, Americans have low esteem for American made cars, people are wary of buying from a failing automaker, consumer confidence is at historic lows...YET

Someone obviously is delusional enough to think that there are plenty of Americans who will actually buy American cars.

Please explain to me how doing this makes any sense?

Are we prepared to spend $200 billion on the automakers to keep them afloat for at least one and maybe two years? How deep will we go?

We survived the Great Depression, Two World Wars and George W. Bush (almost), so I think we can survive the loss of the Big Three.

The big pain is coming and this bailout won't stop it, but WILL make the pain worse. This is like giving aspirin to someone with a ruptured appendix. The patient is going to get very sick because the remedy is inappropriate.

What was it Einstein said? ""Two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former".

-Robert

Do you even know what you're talking about? GM is still outselling Toyota. The American public has lost confidence in the economy, not the US auto industry. EVERYONE is losing sales even Toyota and Honda.


http://online.wsj.com/mdc/publ...osales.html#autosalesE

Yes, why does everyone assume that because they don't want to buy domestic that nobody else does either? 9.3 million people worldwide bought GM vehicles last year. Does that sound like nobody likes their cars?

I'll never understand the logic behind wanting 3 million people out of work to justify the hard-on one has for a car company. This, I don't like domestic cars so they must die attitude is juvenile at the very least.

 

[Leon]

Do you even know what you're talking about? GM is still outselling Toyota.

They are doing fine then, no need for bailout.

 

[ProfJohn]

The fall of the big 3 and the rise of the Japanese is a perfect example of the free market at work.

The Japanese companies follow the free market when it comes to wages. They pay their work force a 'fair' wage and fair benefits based on where ever their plants are located.

The big 3 do not follow the free market because the unions hold them hostage to get better than average compensation. It is because of the unions holding them hostage that they caved in and gave life time medical and huge pensions and job banks etc etc etc. If there were no unions the big 3 would pay market wages and provide market benefits and would be far more competitive.

You can claim that the management of the big 3 'gave' the unions all those great perks, but that is like claiming a bank teller 'gave' money to a robber.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The fall of the big 3 and the rise of the Japanese is a perfect example of the free market at work.

The Japanese companies follow the free market when it comes to wages. They pay their work force a 'fair' wage and fair benefits based on where ever their plants are located.

The big 3 do not follow the free market because the unions hold them hostage to get better than average compensation. It is because of the unions holding them hostage that they caved in and gave life time medical and huge pensions and job banks etc etc etc. If there were no unions the big 3 would pay market wages and provide market benefits and would be far more competitive.

You can claim that the management of the big 3 'gave' the unions all those great perks, but that is like claiming a bank teller 'gave' money to a robber.

You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Try studying the Japanese political-economy then try repeating this garbage.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: boomerang
I'll never understand the logic behind wanting 3 million people out of work to justify the hard-on one has for a car company.

This, I don't like domestic cars so they must die attitude is juvenile at the very least.

What are you blabbering about?

They don't make anything anyone can use and haven't for years now.

What woud you buy and why?

 

[First]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The fall of the big 3 and the rise of the Japanese is a perfect example of the free market at work.

The Japanese companies follow the free market when it comes to wages. They pay their work force a 'fair' wage and fair benefits based on where ever their plants are located.

The big 3 do not follow the free market because the unions hold them hostage to get better than average compensation. It is because of the unions holding them hostage that they caved in and gave life time medical and huge pensions and job banks etc etc etc. If there were no unions the big 3 would pay market wages and provide market benefits and would be far more competitive.

You can claim that the management of the big 3 'gave' the unions all those great perks, but that is like claiming a bank teller 'gave' money to a robber.

Layman economics FTL, per usual. Aren't you tired of getting everything wrong, from the recession to the election to social trends? Must be frustrating sucking that badly.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: JS80

No, I would wait and buy the car from the company that emerged from bk and is no longer made with union labor.

So if everyone did what you just said, the company would definitely go out of business. Thanks for proving my point on why bankruptcy is useless to these car companies.

I fail to see what point you proved. They are going bk no matter what at the burn rate right now. They will inevitably burn through the bailout money and will file bk.

To play devil's advocate here, you seem to dodge the question with the anti-union stipulation. It would seem that you seem to care more about breaking the union than the bankruptcy/reorganization question. What if they did go into chapter 11 and still came out without getting rid of the UAW, or restarted their union after the reorganization went through? Remember that the union and its members have obligations that must be met by law before many other creditors in chapter 11...

Responses like this only seem to confirm my suspicion that opposition to the bailout has more to do with union-busting than it does with the bailout as a matter of fiscal/industrial policy...

That is pretty much what the R senators are all about. As someone posted earlier its an opportunity to break the unions which vote primarily Democratic and support the foreign car factories in their states which were enticed there with huge incentives using taxpayer money.

What those idiots do not realize if the big 3 die the whole auto industry will be in upheaval with lots of job losses, and yes even in their own states and at the foreign car makers. Talk of cutting your nose to spite your face.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The fall of the big 3 and the rise of the Japanese is a perfect example of the free market at work.

The Japanese companies follow the free market when it comes to wages. They pay their work force a 'fair' wage and fair benefits based on where ever their plants are located.

The big 3 do not follow the free market because the unions hold them hostage to get better than average compensation. It is because of the unions holding them hostage that they caved in and gave life time medical and huge pensions and job banks etc etc etc. If there were no unions the big 3 would pay market wages and provide market benefits and would be far more competitive.

You can claim that the management of the big 3 'gave' the unions all those great perks, but that is like claiming a bank teller 'gave' money to a robber.

You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Try studying the Japanese political-economy then try repeating this garbage.

What are the per hour costs for the big 3 vs. the Japanese car plants in THIS country?

$70 something vs. $50 something I believe.

How did the costs of the big 3 get so high?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The fall of the big 3 and the rise of the Japanese is a perfect example of the free market at work.

The Japanese companies follow the free market when it comes to wages. They pay their work force a 'fair' wage and fair benefits based on where ever their plants are located.

The big 3 do not follow the free market because the unions hold them hostage to get better than average compensation. It is because of the unions holding them hostage that they caved in and gave life time medical and huge pensions and job banks etc etc etc. If there were no unions the big 3 would pay market wages and provide market benefits and would be far more competitive.

You can claim that the management of the big 3 'gave' the unions all those great perks, but that is like claiming a bank teller 'gave' money to a robber.

WTF? The Japanese economy is hardly a free market, and is more unionized than the US. And if Toyota needed a $15 billion loan from the infamously protectionist Japanese govt, they'd already have it before the Japanese people even knew about it.

 

[ProfJohn]

I am talking about US plants.

A very large portion of Honda's and Toyota's sold in this country and built right in this country. And they are built cheaper than the big 3 can make cars because they pay more reasonable wages because they don't have a very powerful union holding a gun to their head.

From honda

Nearly 80 percent of the cars and light trucks Honda sells in the U.S. were assembled in North America using domestic and globally sourced parts. Increasingly, many of these products are designed and developed by Honda's R&D operations in America as well as including the Honda Civic Coupe and Civic Si, Element, Pilot and Ridgeline - and the Acura TL and MDX.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I am talking about US plants.

A very large portion of Honda's and Toyota's sold in this country and built right in this country. And they are built cheaper than the big 3 can make cars because they pay more reasonable wages because they don't have a very powerful union holding a gun to their head.

Do you understand how company's fund themselves? Funds Transfer Pricing? Capital costs? Infrastructure investments?

Yeah, all of that costs money, money they get through unfair "competition" through home-boy protectionism. Not to mention the benefits they get domestically are ones that go to subsidize foreign (US) production.

Only a retard wouldn't realize that the "competition" the US faces isn't "free market"

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: boomerang
I'll never understand the logic behind wanting 3 million people out of work to justify the hard-on one has for a car company.

This, I don't like domestic cars so they must die attitude is juvenile at the very least.

What are you blabbering about?

They don't make anything anyone can use and haven't for years now.

What woud you buy and why?

Without even going into trucks/suv's:

Malibu/Aura
Cobalt SS
Astra
Cruze (if it makes ever makes it here)
Volt (ditto)
Solstice/Sky
CTS(V)
Corvette(z51,z06,zr1)
Camaro
Fiesta
Fusion
G8
Mustang
Challenger
Any of the domestic hybrids

 

[ericlp]

The only reason it failed because bush couldn't line his pockets like he did with the 700 billion.

 

[OCGuy]

:thumbsup: GOP.


As soon as you get off your "Gawd-fearing" agenda, you start to have ideas that people can relate to.

 

[cubby1223]

Holy crap - I never watched MSNBC before, heard they were in bed with Democrats, but I put it on for the past 20 minutes, and wow, that station is a mirror image of all the left-wing posters here. Rachel Maddow I think it is. Unions are awesome! Republicans are evil! Look, Republicans want you to lose your job! Just listen to them speak! Republicans are in bed with the foreign auto-makers, sending all our money to them! Show me a UAW making $71 per hour, doesn't exist, Republicans are liars! Any of this sounding exactly like threads created here? She is more partisan than even Hannity! Hannity never embraces Republicans, nor shits on Democrats like Maddow is doing in reverse. No wonder all you lefties feel so emboldened.

It is also very interesting that she's doing a long story on Blagojevich yet not once mentions he is a Democrat. Not once.



Back to the auto bailout and the UAW, good for the Republicans blocking this bailout. The industry was on the verge of collapse even before the financial crisis. Changes *have* to be made. Cut the CEO pay down to one penny and the companies are still in the shitter. Break the union and the companies have a fighting chance to compete. Rebuild the union when the economy turns around.

But come on, there are only two options here (1) break the UAW, or (2) unionize the foreign auto-makers. Only options to make GM, Ford, & Chrysler competitive. The government cannot do the latter. Leaves only one option to make the company competitive. And competitive companies create jobs. Not the other way around.

 

[theeedude]

In theory. In practice, it's going to cost a lot more to clean up this mess than to prevent it. There are simply no jobs out there for these people right now. They are going to be sitting on unemployment or public dole, and our taxes will be paying them to do nothing. Big 3 pensions will have to be bailed out by the taxpayers as well. So yeah, you can do some union busting and score cheap points, or you can prevent a real mess. Can count on the Republicans to take the low road.

 

[Zebo]

This will cause another great depression if America loses its auto industry, it will lose the suppliers as well and will cease to have a manufacturing sector. For years now new age economists have been writing off America?s manufacturing jobs as no big deal and deluding themselves and the public with propaganda about a New Economy based on finance and financial instruments. We see how well that's going that house of cards is just starting to fall you have not seen nothing yet.

Well?it?s been real, and it?s been fun?would?ve been nice if we?d seen the Volt run?

 

[OFFascist]

We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

 

[cubby1223]

Wait a minute, MSNBC told me that Republicans blocked this for the sole benefit of the Japanese auto-makers. They went through one by one who is against the bailout and what foreign auto-makers have a plant or headquarters in their state.

So why are their stocks down this morning? Shouldn't they be soaring? The evil Southern Republicans got their way in a triumphant victory for Japan. I've got to be missing something here...

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

Keep thinking that competitive capitalism is the way to go huh? Meanwhile these nations and their companies beating our socks off have national health care so their employers don't have to worry about it, retirement plans ditto, pay for developments of technologies e.g. toyotas hybrid among other socialized prescriptions such as loan guarantees, and other types of government assistance and national holding schemes. Does the terms ?chaebol? or ?keiretsu? mean anything to you? Teamwork always wins everyone knows this but Neanderthals over here it seems. Guess they long for caves from whence they came. No problem it's coming.

 

[Red Dawn]

So instead of getting the money with stringds attached the Auto Companies will get the money with no requirements having to be met via the Troubled Asset Relief Program through the Bush White House

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So instead of getting the money with stringds attached the Auto Companies will get the money with no requirements having to be met via the Troubled Asset Relief Program through the Bush White House

Sounds about right.

cubbyMSNBC has Keith Olberman who, while amusing, is every bit the polarizing hack as Sean Hannity. I think the channel is crap and not a place a person should be getting news.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

But we should absolutely cut our nose off to spite our face.

Thanks.

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

But we should absolutely cut our nose off to spite our face.

Thanks.

They have not exhausted all avenues of BEFORE going to the people and asking for money.

The UAW is unwilling to make concessions.

why the hell should they get a dime?

When the big 3 have sold off all their assets that are draining them, leaned out their operations, spent some of their profit money and come up with a plan that is not the same old same old......THEN they can come ask for money...it does not mean they will get it....just that they can ask.

The same goes for the UAW....if they are not willing to make some concessions now....when will they be? As long as they are unwilling to play ball why should they get help?

So yeah...if you have these two stubborn giants that are going to fuck me over and take my money...no thanks...I'll do it myself and waste my money on my terms...not theirs.