Yeah GOP!

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari
My point is, and has always been, that you supported a useless war that has done nothing for America and has cost us hundreds of billions of dollars. Yet, when it comes to helping out American manufacturing, you're against it. You truly are part of a ship of fools.

That is fine, point taken. Now answer my question.

Well, if you admit to being a fool, there's no point in talking to you.

I'll take that answer to mean you realize your argument has serious flaws. And in realizing that you are going home and taking your toys with you.

A foolish response, no doubt.

k

 

[Chunkee]

Originally posted by: chess9
No one wants the American auto industry to die. Get over your juvenile fantasies.

What we don't want to do is waste precious resources on an industry that will fail anyway.

-Robert

I agree. Same with the Banking and Wall Street.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Good. The bailout needed to fail.

Ok that's fine, now what happens to the economy when the result is millions of unemployed? That's what concerns me, not the plight of the Union.

Its very unlikely "millions" will be unemployed. Only Chrysler is in a serious situation. Ford and GM want the bailout because its an easy temporary fix for them.

So you're confident that our economy won't take a big hit if we don't bail them out?

It probably will short-term, but $14B won't get them far at all, so it will end up costing far more, and long-term we have then a situation whereby public funding is keeping up companies that the market otherwise says are untenable, so the costs long term would be greater than short term.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Good. The bailout needed to fail.

Ok that's fine, now what happens to the economy when the result is millions of unemployed? That's what concerns me, not the plight of the Union.

Its very unlikely "millions" will be unemployed. Only Chrysler is in a serious situation. Ford and GM want the bailout because its an easy temporary fix for them.

So you're confident that our economy won't take a big hit if we don't bail them out?

I'm confident that our economy will be better off if we have strong companies. Right now, they are not strong companies - they need to restructure and rework their attitude and image.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Corbett
I live in Detroit and I'll be honest in saying that I don't want to see many people I know out of a job.

My dad is the global project manager for the blackberry project for all of Genera Motors, so yes, people very close to me are effected by the situation.

On the other hand, I don't think giving the big 3 these loans are going to fix the situation and are only a band-aid on a leg that needs amputation.

Everywhere I go I see people everday with that bumper sticker that says "Out of a job yet, keep buy foreign!" and I cringe every time I see it.

I've even considered making a few different bumper stickers such as :

Out of a job yet? Keep supporting the UAW.
or
Our of a job yet? Keep designing sub-standard products.

Michigan's economy has been in the crapper for almost 5 years now and its only going to get worse with or without these loans from the government.

But like I said, even if the big 3 get the loans, they will be right back in Washington years later asking for the same thing.

What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

No they won't because one of the great thing about these discussions is that it is putting huge pressures on the unions. Furthermore, if the Big Three can become smaller and focus on making products Americans want, everybody wins. The astonishing thing about all of this is that these discussions would never happen in Japan or Germany.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

But we should absolutely cut our nose off to spite our face.

Thanks.

They have not exhausted all avenues of BEFORE going to the people and asking for money.

The UAW is unwilling to make concessions.

why the hell should they get a dime?

When the big 3 have sold off all their assets that are draining them, leaned out their operations, spent some of their profit money and come up with a plan that is not the same old same old......THEN they can come ask for money...it does not mean they will get it....just that they can ask.

The same goes for the UAW....if they are not willing to make some concessions now....when will they be? As long as they are unwilling to play ball why should they get help?

So yeah...if you have these two stubborn giants that are going to fuck me over and take my money...no thanks...I'll do it myself and waste my money on my terms...not theirs.

If you can't see that this was plain old political manuvering then you're blind. The same dipshits who shot this down are the ones who *LOVE* putting $10BN PER MONTH into the sinkhole of Iraq.

It's about time we stopped fooling ourselves. The only bailout the Repuglicans want is for corporations through tax breaks and political control using fearmongering (religous and terrorist).

The dems aren't any better. However, it's disgusting to see the forked tongue that the Repugs are now using.

 

[Modelworks]

What if it was planned to fail in the senate ?
I'm just thinking about how the big 3 didn't like all the rules and oversight that were going to be attached to the original bailout.
Does them getting the money from the tarp funds bypass those rules and give them more leniency on how they spend the money ?
Or would the same conditions apply ?

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

But we should absolutely cut our nose off to spite our face.

Thanks.

They have not exhausted all avenues of BEFORE going to the people and asking for money.

The UAW is unwilling to make concessions.

why the hell should they get a dime?

When the big 3 have sold off all their assets that are draining them, leaned out their operations, spent some of their profit money and come up with a plan that is not the same old same old......THEN they can come ask for money...it does not mean they will get it....just that they can ask.

The same goes for the UAW....if they are not willing to make some concessions now....when will they be? As long as they are unwilling to play ball why should they get help?

So yeah...if you have these two stubborn giants that are going to fuck me over and take my money...no thanks...I'll do it myself and waste my money on my terms...not theirs.

If you can't see that this was plain old political manuvering then you're blind. The same dipshits who shot this down are the ones who *LOVE* putting $10BN PER MONTH into the sinkhole of Iraq.

It's about time we stopped fooling ourselves. The only bailout the Repuglicans want is for corporations through tax breaks and political control using fearmongering (religous and terrorist).

The dems aren't any better. However, it's disgusting to see the forked tongue that the Repugs are now using.

Its quite simple, the Big 3 need sound restructuring plans BEFORE they get money.

Its really f'ing simple. Do away with brands(hint, the foriegn auto co's dont have 5-6 brands all with their own model for each segment), close plants, layoff workers. Oh wait they cannot because the UAW will fight tooth and nail against all of it. The UAW will fight against the Big 3 getting leaner because it means less money for them.

Giving money to Big 3 doesnt fix the problem. They need to fix their problems first, then throw money at it.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

But we should absolutely cut our nose off to spite our face.

Thanks.

They have not exhausted all avenues of BEFORE going to the people and asking for money.

The UAW is unwilling to make concessions.

why the hell should they get a dime?

When the big 3 have sold off all their assets that are draining them, leaned out their operations, spent some of their profit money and come up with a plan that is not the same old same old......THEN they can come ask for money...it does not mean they will get it....just that they can ask.

The same goes for the UAW....if they are not willing to make some concessions now....when will they be? As long as they are unwilling to play ball why should they get help?

So yeah...if you have these two stubborn giants that are going to fuck me over and take my money...no thanks...I'll do it myself and waste my money on my terms...not theirs.

If you can't see that this was plain old political manuvering then you're blind. The same dipshits who shot this down are the ones who *LOVE* putting $10BN PER MONTH into the sinkhole of Iraq.

It's about time we stopped fooling ourselves. The only bailout the Repuglicans want is for corporations through tax breaks and political control using fearmongering (religous and terrorist).

The dems aren't any better. However, it's disgusting to see the forked tongue that the Repugs are now using.

Its quite simple, the Big 3 need sound restructuring plans BEFORE they get money.

Its really f'ing simple. Do away with brands(hint, the foriegn auto co's dont have 5-6 brands all with their own model for each segment), close plants, layoff workers. Oh wait they cannot because the UAW will fight tooth and nail against all of it. The UAW will fight against the Big 3 getting leaner because it means less money for them.

Giving money to Big 3 doesnt fix the problem. They need to fix their problems, instead of throwing money at it.

Granted they definitely need to fix their problems but is now the time to force them to do it while our economy is on the ropes?

 

[IronWing]

Hooray for GOP class warfare and crony capitalism! We'll bet the treasury to save our buddies at the banks in this time of crisis but then turn around and use the crisis to attack the workers. Scum doesn't come much scummier than Mitch McConnell.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: ironwing
Hooray for GOP class warfare and crony capitalism! We'll bet the treasury to save our buddies at the banks in this time of crisis but then turn around and use the crisis to attack the workers. Scum doesn't come much scummier than Mitch McConnell.

Yeah because the GOP was so into the other bailouts... :roll:

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

But we should absolutely cut our nose off to spite our face.

Thanks.

They have not exhausted all avenues of BEFORE going to the people and asking for money.

The UAW is unwilling to make concessions.

why the hell should they get a dime?

When the big 3 have sold off all their assets that are draining them, leaned out their operations, spent some of their profit money and come up with a plan that is not the same old same old......THEN they can come ask for money...it does not mean they will get it....just that they can ask.

The same goes for the UAW....if they are not willing to make some concessions now....when will they be? As long as they are unwilling to play ball why should they get help?

So yeah...if you have these two stubborn giants that are going to fuck me over and take my money...no thanks...I'll do it myself and waste my money on my terms...not theirs.

If you can't see that this was plain old political manuvering then you're blind. The same dipshits who shot this down are the ones who *LOVE* putting $10BN PER MONTH into the sinkhole of Iraq.

It's about time we stopped fooling ourselves. The only bailout the Repuglicans want is for corporations through tax breaks and political control using fearmongering (religous and terrorist).

The dems aren't any better. However, it's disgusting to see the forked tongue that the Repugs are now using.

Its quite simple, the Big 3 need sound restructuring plans BEFORE they get money.

Its really f'ing simple. Do away with brands(hint, the foriegn auto co's dont have 5-6 brands all with their own model for each segment), close plants, layoff workers. Oh wait they cannot because the UAW will fight tooth and nail against all of it. The UAW will fight against the Big 3 getting leaner because it means less money for them.

Giving money to Big 3 doesnt fix the problem. They need to fix their problems first, then throw money at it.

They've laid out the very plans you're advocating already. You can read it here;

http://online.wsj.com/public/r...cturing_plan120208.pdf

It's 37 pages long, so hopefully your employer won't mind you taking the time to read it and post here too.

Posts with some knowledge and substance behind them are much more effective that knee-jerk reactions that are not well thought out.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: boomerang
I'll never understand the logic behind wanting 3 million people out of work to justify the hard-on one has for a car company.

This, I don't like domestic cars so they must die attitude is juvenile at the very least.

What are you blabbering about?

They don't make anything anyone can use and haven't for years now.

What woud you buy and why?

Here's what i wrote. The part that you conveniently left out has been bolded.

Yes, why does everyone assume that because they don't want to buy domestic that nobody else does either? 9.3 million people worldwide bought GM vehicles last year. Does that sound like nobody likes their cars?

I'll never understand the logic behind wanting 3 million people out of work to justify the hard-on one has for a car company. This, I don't like domestic cars so they must die attitude is juvenile at the very least.

9.3 million people Dave. I know that fact doesn't fit in with your agenda. So now you know what I was blabbering about.

Do you even realize that you can't maintain a consistent line of thinking on a subject? One minute you want the domestics to fail and the next you're saying how bad it's going to be for the country.

 

[TraumaRN]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Good. The bailout needed to fail.

Ok that's fine, now what happens to the economy when the result is millions of unemployed? That's what concerns me, not the plight of the Union.

You mean - what happens to the economy IF the result is millions of unemployed.

Then other car manufacturers will pick up the slack. Americans buy cars so there is still a healthy market for them. Not stupidly large numbers like yesteryear but still plenty to sustain well structured auto manufacturers.

File, restructure, and come back stronger. It's the only way to have a healthy industry for the long term.

How would the other manufacturers pick up the slack?? If two out of the three fail thats a HUGE production hole to fill. I'd be willing to bet they'd be unable to pick up the slack for a few years.

And the economy will suffer if these companies go bankrupt. Thinking that it wouldn't is asinine. Sure they can restructure but what about all those suppliers...surely you can't expect them to all restructure and file for bankruptcy too?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DeathBUA

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Good. The bailout needed to fail.

Ok that's fine, now what happens to the economy when the result is millions of unemployed? That's what concerns me, not the plight of the Union.

You mean - what happens to the economy IF the result is millions of unemployed.

Then other car manufacturers will pick up the slack. Americans buy cars so there is still a healthy market for them. Not stupidly large numbers like yesteryear but still plenty to sustain well structured auto manufacturers.

File, restructure, and come back stronger. It's the only way to have a healthy industry for the long term.

How would the other manufacturers pick up the slack?? If two out of the three fail thats a HUGE production hole to fill. I'd be willing to bet they'd be unable to pick up the slack for a few years.

And the economy will suffer if these companies go bankrupt. Thinking that it wouldn't is asinine. Sure they can restructure but what about all those suppliers...surely you can't expect them to all restructure and file for bankruptcy too?

IF 2 of the 3 fail - do you really think they'll just disappear? I'm not naive enough to fall for that sort of BS and neither should you. They won't just disappear if they file chap 11.

The economy will suffer longer if we just throw money at these companies and they don't get their shit straight. Again, there will be car demand regardless of what happens to the big 3(really only 2 supposedly in dire straights) so suppliers will have approx the same demand no matter what happens because people buy cars.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: ironwing
Hooray for GOP class warfare and crony capitalism! We'll bet the treasury to save our buddies at the banks in this time of crisis but then turn around and use the crisis to attack the workers. Scum doesn't come much scummier than Mitch McConnell.

Yeah because the GOP was so into the other bailouts... :roll:

They were. The bailout was proposed by a Republican administration and passed in a Senate where Republicans could have stopped it. The Republicans are willing to destroy the economy if that is what it takes to destroy a union.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: JS80
Finally GOP restoring faith.

But since when do the poor pay taxes?

How is this "restoring faith"?

Instead of restraining spending in the last 8 years they spent like drunken sailors. Instead of restraining borrowing and regulating more, they let the animals run wild.
Instead of being the stewards of the country they treated it as their own domain to be used and abused.

Now, as a result of their misdeeds, incompetence, and lack of foresight, we are in massive trouble. Instead of actually allowing the companies time to adjust to the new reality, instead of the fake one the Republicans allowed for the last 8 years, they are cutting them off.

It's like a parent encouraging a kid to misbehave, run wild, and cause problems and then chopping the kid's head off when they do.

The Republicans aren't restoring faith, they are passing the buck.

What misdeeds, incompetence, and lack of foresight by the Republicans contributed to the Big 3 debacle?

 

[Modelworks]

Treasury Secretary just said they are going to help out since the senate failed.
Convenient for the big 3.

 

[geno]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Com on America!

Sad but true. How insane is it that a company doesn't have to worry about hitting rock bottom since we're going to end up paying their way out anyhow? The fat cats on top will be as rich as ever and the middle / lower class will end up footing the bill yet again.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DeathBUA

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Good. The bailout needed to fail.

Ok that's fine, now what happens to the economy when the result is millions of unemployed? That's what concerns me, not the plight of the Union.

You mean - what happens to the economy IF the result is millions of unemployed.

Then other car manufacturers will pick up the slack. Americans buy cars so there is still a healthy market for them. Not stupidly large numbers like yesteryear but still plenty to sustain well structured auto manufacturers.

File, restructure, and come back stronger. It's the only way to have a healthy industry for the long term.

How would the other manufacturers pick up the slack?? If two out of the three fail thats a HUGE production hole to fill. I'd be willing to bet they'd be unable to pick up the slack for a few years.

And the economy will suffer if these companies go bankrupt. Thinking that it wouldn't is asinine. Sure they can restructure but what about all those suppliers...surely you can't expect them to all restructure and file for bankruptcy too?

IF 2 of the 3 fail - do you really think they'll just disappear? I'm not naive enough to fall for that sort of BS and neither should you. They won't just disappear if they file chap 11.

The economy will suffer longer if we just throw money at these companies and they don't get their shit straight. Again, there will be car demand regardless of what happens to the big 3(really only 2 supposedly in dire straights) so suppliers will have approx the same demand no matter what happens because people buy cars.

They will file Chapter 11, IF they can get DIP financing. Otherwise, they will need a merger with a viable company that can support them (unlikely), or they will liquidate under Chapter 7.

I wish only the best for the auto companies and especially their workers, but the chickens have finally come to roost from years of mismanagement by leaders of the Big Three. This is an example of a collosal failure of capitalism, much like what's happened on Wall Street, including today's news about Maddow's 50 billion dollar Ponzi scheme.

We were all fearful that Communism would bring down Capitalism, yet it's Capitalism's excesses that have brought Capitalism to its knees. If Marx were alive today, the irony for him would be rich indeed.

-Robert

 

[evident]

let chrysler die, let ford and maybe gm get some aid. it's pretty alarming that the viability of that company hasn't even been assessed or addressed by the house/senate.

 

[MikeyLSU]

Originally posted by: ironwing
Hooray for GOP class warfare and crony capitalism! We'll bet the treasury to save our buddies at the banks in this time of crisis but then turn around and use the crisis to attack the workers. Scum doesn't come much scummier than Mitch McConnell.

Do you even know what you are talking about? Republicans voted against that one too?

Democrats could pass this if it were that great of a plan.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

But we should absolutely cut our nose off to spite our face.

Thanks.

They have not exhausted all avenues of BEFORE going to the people and asking for money.

The UAW is unwilling to make concessions.

why the hell should they get a dime?

When the big 3 have sold off all their assets that are draining them, leaned out their operations, spent some of their profit money and come up with a plan that is not the same old same old......THEN they can come ask for money...it does not mean they will get it....just that they can ask.

The same goes for the UAW....if they are not willing to make some concessions now....when will they be? As long as they are unwilling to play ball why should they get help?

So yeah...if you have these two stubborn giants that are going to fuck me over and take my money...no thanks...I'll do it myself and waste my money on my terms...not theirs.

The labor component of making a car is 10%. The UAW has already made concessions - starting 2009 -2010 the worker will actually make less than the non union workers working in state subsidized plants in the south.



Can we all stop the charade and call it what it is? This is R senators hoping to a) break the unions which traditionally vote Democratic, b) thinking that by breaking Detroit they will attract more car manufacturing jobs in their states, c) make the democrats & Bush look bad.

What those idiots do not realize is that they will have deal with the huge upheaval if detroit goes down. Even the car makers in their states will be affected.

And, once the union is busted, look for wages to drop across the board for car makers (the Japs only pay what they pay to keep unions out) - it will be a race to the bottom. The walmart effect.

Ford and GM wont go tits up without the bailout.

but but but the sky is falling!!! The economy will collapse!!! Everyone will be on the streets!!! The only remedy is throwing money at it!!!

What you, and everybody else, need to keep in mind is that unlike wall street, the domestic automakers are only asking for a loan and not a bailout. And Ford is only asking for a line of credit. Why is that so hard to do?

And if you haven't noticed the economy is already in the shitter. And for anyone or any entity that does not have cash to keeps its operations, giving it the money to keep moving is not an unreasonable course of action. Part of the problems auto makers are facing is caused by the lack of credit which is a result of wall streets misdeeds and greed. But they got a bailout with almost no oversight or even questioning.

Your la-di-da response does nothing to the discussion.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: JS80
Finally GOP restoring faith.

But since when do the poor pay taxes?

How is this "restoring faith"?

Instead of restraining spending in the last 8 years they spent like drunken sailors. Instead of restraining borrowing and regulating more, they let the animals run wild.
Instead of being the stewards of the country they treated it as their own domain to be used and abused.

Now, as a result of their misdeeds, incompetence, and lack of foresight, we are in massive trouble. Instead of actually allowing the companies time to adjust to the new reality, instead of the fake one the Republicans allowed for the last 8 years, they are cutting them off.

It's like a parent encouraging a kid to misbehave, run wild, and cause problems and then chopping the kid's head off when they do.

The Republicans aren't restoring faith, they are passing the buck.

You misunderstood my point. I lost faith in them because of the reasons you just presented. This is the first step in "restoring" my faith in them. I have huge disdain for the Big 3 and the UAW so I admit I am biased when I wish it death.

And I reiterate my point. Killing a kid because you encouraged the behavior is a silly notion. You caused the problem, you fix the problem in a responsible way.

I have a huge amount of disdain for any Republican who has been in office the past 10 years who has allowed this stupidity to happen. All of them need to be voted out and publicly flogged for being lying, pandering, and non-representative asses. They didn't do one thing in the public interest and they acted as though they were kings, not servants. It's disgusting the Republican party has devolved into such stupidity, Lincoln would be ashamed.

Now, passing the buck? They are even more shallow and hollow. It's their own fucking fault, now they need to man up and fix the damn problem.

Woah. Where do you get off laying all of this at the Republicans' feet?

 

[Atreus21]

Are there any american car manufacturers that aren't part of the big 3?