Yeah GOP!

[MikeyLSU]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Are there any american car manufacturers that aren't part of the big 3?

yes, Kia for one

 

[MikeyLSU]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: ironwing
Hooray for GOP class warfare and crony capitalism! We'll bet the treasury to save our buddies at the banks in this time of crisis but then turn around and use the crisis to attack the workers. Scum doesn't come much scummier than Mitch McConnell.

Yeah because the GOP was so into the other bailouts... :roll:

They were. The bailout was proposed by a Republican administration and passed in a Senate where Republicans could have stopped it. The Republicans are willing to destroy the economy if that is what it takes to destroy a union.

ummm, the republicans voted against the bank bailout. Dems voted for it. Go look up the votes.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

What you, and everybody else, need to keep in mind is that unlike wall street, the domestic automakers are only asking for a loan and not a bailout. And Ford is only asking for a line of credit. Why is that so hard to do?

With the way these companies (and the banking industry, for that matter) have operated, I think that any of these "loans" have to be considered to be bailouts. What happens if the companies get the loans and still can get into the black? How are they going to pay back money they don't have?

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Are there any american car manufacturers that aren't part of the big 3?

yes, Kia for one

Being a Korean company...

 

[MikeyLSU]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Are there any american car manufacturers that aren't part of the big 3?

yes, Kia for one

Being a Korean company...

lol, yeah, I'm an idiot, wasn't thinking straight. I don't think there are any others.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Are there any american car manufacturers that aren't part of the big 3?

yes, Kia for one

Being a Korean company...

lol, yeah, I'm an idiot, wasn't thinking straight. I don't think there are any others.

Saleen, Panoz, Tesla to name a few, but they produce very little cars and they're more like specialty niche cars.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

But we should absolutely cut our nose off to spite our face.

Thanks.

They have not exhausted all avenues of BEFORE going to the people and asking for money.

The UAW is unwilling to make concessions.

why the hell should they get a dime?

When the big 3 have sold off all their assets that are draining them, leaned out their operations, spent some of their profit money and come up with a plan that is not the same old same old......THEN they can come ask for money...it does not mean they will get it....just that they can ask.

The same goes for the UAW....if they are not willing to make some concessions now....when will they be? As long as they are unwilling to play ball why should they get help?

So yeah...if you have these two stubborn giants that are going to fuck me over and take my money...no thanks...I'll do it myself and waste my money on my terms...not theirs.

The labor component of making a car is 10%. The UAW has already made concessions - starting 2009 -2010 the worker will actually make less than the non union workers working in state subsidized plants in the south.



Can we all stop the charade and call it what it is? This is R senators hoping to a) break the unions which traditionally vote Democratic, b) thinking that by breaking Detroit they will attract more car manufacturing jobs in their states, c) make the democrats & Bush look bad.

What those idiots do not realize is that they will have deal with the huge upheaval if detroit goes down. Even the car makers in their states will be affected.

And, once the union is busted, look for wages to drop across the board for car makers (the Japs only pay what they pay to keep unions out) - it will be a race to the bottom. The walmart effect.

Ford and GM wont go tits up without the bailout.

but but but the sky is falling!!! The economy will collapse!!! Everyone will be on the streets!!! The only remedy is throwing money at it!!!

What you, and everybody else, need to keep in mind is that unlike wall street, the domestic automakers are only asking for a loan and not a bailout. And Ford is only asking for a line of credit. Why is that so hard to do?

And if you haven't noticed the economy is already in the shitter. And for anyone or any entity that does not have cash to keeps its operations, giving it the money to keep moving is not an unreasonable course of action. Part of the problems auto makers are facing is caused by the lack of credit which is a result of wall streets misdeeds and greed. But they got a bailout with almost no oversight or even questioning.

Your la-di-da response does nothing to the discussion.

A loan to a bankrupt corporation is a GIFT, or a bailout, but it's not like they can guarantee to repay the Treasury, unless they can pledge their assets to the Treasury.

The lack of credit, which you aptly point out, means a lot fewer people can afford to buy cars. So, if that's the case, is it prudent to lend money to a bankrupt corp with little hope of selling its product?

-Robert

 

[theeedude]

GOP is shilling for the Japanese Big 3 building cars in Southern states. They couldn't care less about the US autoworkers, economy, or even taxpayer who will have to pick up the pieces if Detroit goes bust.
Hopefully Obama with the Democrat majority will put the screws on the Republicans.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

What you, and everybody else, need to keep in mind is that unlike wall street, the domestic automakers are only asking for a loan and not a bailout. And Ford is only asking for a line of credit. Why is that so hard to do?

With the way these companies (and the banking industry, for that matter) have operated, I think that any of these "loans" have to be considered to be bailouts. What happens if the companies get the loans and still can get into the black? How are they going to pay back money they don't have?

Any loan involves a certain amount of risk. Yes there is the possibility that the loan could go bad, but at least the auto makers are hoping to pay it back, just like Chrysler did in the late 70's.

And if the economy turns around there's a good chance the loans will be paid back and the treasury will make money. IMHO this could end up being a win-win for the Govt. They could help save the domestic manufacturing base and make money. But there is always a risk in any loan.

Actually GM & Ford were on a comeback before the economy went south. Look at last year around this time. GM was selling more cars than others. Ford had been improving its sales. Their cars are getting as high - if not higher - ratings from JD Powers, Consumer Reports and others who rate cars for their build quality and reliability. Also - this doesn't get talked about much - they have some very fuel efficient cars, probably more so than the foreign makes.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Are there any american car manufacturers that aren't part of the big 3?

yes, Kia for one

Being a Korean company...

And a subsidiary of Hyundai.

 

[irishScott]

The party that's appears to be in control (generally the one with the President in office) always gets a bum rap when things go wrong.

Everyone's blaming the GOP now, even more so because Obama's pretty much a Donkey God at this point and can do no wrong. It's not entirely their fault. The Democrats basically sat on their asses too. Look at the congressional voting records; I mean the hard raw voting records on senate.gov or wherever. Neither side has really proposed anything new/productive/progressive in the last 8 years.

There's a reason people hate congress more than bush right now. That said I'm happy I'm from VA. I actually have confidence in Wolf, Warner, and even Webb to a degree.

 

[Puffnstuff]

The big 3 have dug their own grave this time around and there's nobody who shoulders more blame than they themselves do. Poor products, planning and quality have come home to roost and it's going to be painful. I'm in the majority of americans who oppose giving them any money unless strict guidelines are drafted and enforced. The uaw's refusal to agree to any changes in their structure tells you straight away that they want it status quo and they want for us to pay for it. To the uaw I say enjoy your unemployment benefits because you've earned them. Millions of people in various industries have lost their jobs and the government never intervened in any way so take your licks like a big boy.

BTW I'm a union member who's also on unemployment because my employer has shut us down due to the economy and there isn't any government help for me or my coworkers so STFU. I wish our contract was like the uaw's with their pay scale and benefits package.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: senseamp
GOP is shilling for the Japanese Big 3 building cars in Southern states. They couldn't care less about the US autoworkers, economy, or even taxpayer who will have to pick up the pieces if Detroit goes bust.
Hopefully Obama with the Democrat majority will put the screws on the Republicans.

Looks to me like the taxpayers will have to do that even with a bailout.
Secondly I believe most polls show a majority dont believe DC should be bailiing out the car makers.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

but but but the sky is falling!!! The economy will collapse!!! Everyone will be on the streets!!! The only remedy is throwing money at it!!!

What you, and everybody else, need to keep in mind is that unlike wall street, the domestic automakers are only asking for a loan and not a bailout. And Ford is only asking for a line of credit. Why is that so hard to do?

And if you haven't noticed the economy is already in the shitter. And for anyone or any entity that does not have cash to keeps its operations, giving it the money to keep moving is not an unreasonable course of action. Part of the problems auto makers are facing is caused by the lack of credit which is a result of wall streets misdeeds and greed. But they got a bailout with almost no oversight or even questioning.

Your la-di-da response does nothing to the discussion.

A loan to a bankrupt corporation is a GIFT, or a bailout, but it's not like they can guarantee to repay the Treasury, unless they can pledge their assets to the Treasury.

The lack of credit, which you aptly point out, means a lot fewer people can afford to buy cars. So, if that's the case, is it prudent to lend money to a bankrupt corp with little hope of selling its product?

-Robert

Ah, but the big three are in trouble but not bankrupt. The whole issue is to help save them from that possibility.

Wall street firms were heading for bankruptcy but they were bailed out. Distasteful as that was, there was a greater good at play - to stop sinking the economy completely. How sure are we that the money given to wall street will be paid back?

Also see my post in response to FuzzyBee above.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp
GOP is shilling for the Japanese Big 3 building cars in Southern states. They couldn't care less about the US autoworkers, economy, or even taxpayer who will have to pick up the pieces if Detroit goes bust.
Hopefully Obama with the Democrat majority will put the screws on the Republicans.

Looks to me like the taxpayers will have to do that even with a bailout.
Secondly I believe most polls show a majority dont believe DC should be bailiing out the car makers.

There is a difference between some federal help and taking over big 3's pension obligations, and paying unemployment to a million of laid off workers. There are no jobs for these people in these environment, they will be on a lot more public dole if the big 3 go under. Also, polls showed majority didn't believe in bank bailout either, or they believe in creationism, or some other foolishness. Majority of Americans are not qualified to make these decisions. Which is why in CA, where we have proposition process for direct democracy, we are in a huge fiscal mess.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp
GOP is shilling for the Japanese Big 3 building cars in Southern states. They couldn't care less about the US autoworkers, economy, or even taxpayer who will have to pick up the pieces if Detroit goes bust.
Hopefully Obama with the Democrat majority will put the screws on the Republicans.

Looks to me like the taxpayers will have to do that even with a bailout.
Secondly I believe most polls show a majority dont believe DC should be bailiing out the car makers.

There is a difference between some federal help and taking over big 3's pension obligations, and paying unemployment to a million of laid off workers. There are no jobs for these people in these environment, they will be on a lot more public dole if the big 3 go under. Also, polls showed majority didn't believe in bank bailout either, or they believe in creationism, or some other foolishness. Majority of Americans are not qualified to make these decisions. Which is why in CA, where we have proposition process for direct democracy, we are in a huge fiscal mess.

Sounds like a never ending cycle of misery to me. Why enable and prolong it?
I would suspect these people can find a job with whoever takes over the big 3's assets. They may have to move south but Michigan sounds like a dump anyways.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp
GOP is shilling for the Japanese Big 3 building cars in Southern states. They couldn't care less about the US autoworkers, economy, or even taxpayer who will have to pick up the pieces if Detroit goes bust.
Hopefully Obama with the Democrat majority will put the screws on the Republicans.

Looks to me like the taxpayers will have to do that even with a bailout.
Secondly I believe most polls show a majority dont believe DC should be bailiing out the car makers.

There is a difference between some federal help and taking over big 3's pension obligations, and paying unemployment to a million of laid off workers. There are no jobs for these people in these environment, they will be on a lot more public dole if the big 3 go under. Also, polls showed majority didn't believe in bank bailout either, or they believe in creationism, or some other foolishness. Majority of Americans are not qualified to make these decisions. Which is why in CA, where we have proposition process for direct democracy, we are in a huge fiscal mess.

Sounds like a never ending cycle of misery to me. Why enable and prolong it?
I would suspect these people can find a job with whoever takes over the big 3's assets. They may have to move south but Michigan sounds like a dump anyways.

Why prolong it? Because the economy is in no position to create an additional millions of jobs for laid off GM workers, right now. If you think the Japanese are going to hire them, you are delusional. Once they don't have American car industry to compete with politically, they'll just build cars in the cheapest place possible, which is not going to be in the US, north or south.

 

[StageLeft]

they'll just build cars in the cheapest place possible, which is not going to be in the US, north or south.

Some tariffs could sort that out lickity split.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

they'll just build cars in the cheapest place possible, which is not going to be in the US, north or south.

Some tariffs could sort that out lickity split.

So let's put those tariffs in place now, before we lose our own car industry.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

they'll just build cars in the cheapest place possible, which is not going to be in the US, north or south.

Some tariffs could sort that out lickity split.

You know they could have impossed tariffs years ago to help the domestic automakers be on more level footing versus the imports.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp
GOP is shilling for the Japanese Big 3 building cars in Southern states. They couldn't care less about the US autoworkers, economy, or even taxpayer who will have to pick up the pieces if Detroit goes bust.
Hopefully Obama with the Democrat majority will put the screws on the Republicans.

Looks to me like the taxpayers will have to do that even with a bailout.
Secondly I believe most polls show a majority dont believe DC should be bailiing out the car makers.

There is a difference between some federal help and taking over big 3's pension obligations, and paying unemployment to a million of laid off workers. There are no jobs for these people in these environment, they will be on a lot more public dole if the big 3 go under. Also, polls showed majority didn't believe in bank bailout either, or they believe in creationism, or some other foolishness. Majority of Americans are not qualified to make these decisions. Which is why in CA, where we have proposition process for direct democracy, we are in a huge fiscal mess.

Sounds like a never ending cycle of misery to me. Why enable and prolong it?
I would suspect these people can find a job with whoever takes over the big 3's assets. They may have to move south but Michigan sounds like a dump anyways.

Why prolong it? Because the economy is in no position to create an additional millions of jobs for laid off GM workers, right now. If you think the Japanese are going to hire them, you are delusional. Once they don't have American car industry to compete with politically, they'll just build cars in the cheapest place possible, which is not going to be in the US, north or south.

So where is your concern for other industries? Gambling employs nearly as many as the big 3. They are teetering on the brink of destruction. How about the airline industry?

Is the govt now going to be the safety for big industry should their business plans fail?

Japanese if they bought the big 3's assets would. Who else is going to produce those lines? Think Toyota would leave those factories and qualified workers in the United States to produce a Ford Explorer in Tokyo?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Skoorb

they'll just build cars in the cheapest place possible, which is not going to be in the US, north or south.

Some tariffs could sort that out lickity split.

So let's put those tariffs in place now, before we lose our own car industry.

Heh are you Hoover reincarnated?

 

[Farang]

Ford has a big plant in Thailand that they can probably expand. I'm sure there are a ton of other options rather than dealing with the UAW.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp
GOP is shilling for the Japanese Big 3 building cars in Southern states. They couldn't care less about the US autoworkers, economy, or even taxpayer who will have to pick up the pieces if Detroit goes bust.
Hopefully Obama with the Democrat majority will put the screws on the Republicans.

Looks to me like the taxpayers will have to do that even with a bailout.
Secondly I believe most polls show a majority dont believe DC should be bailiing out the car makers.

There is a difference between some federal help and taking over big 3's pension obligations, and paying unemployment to a million of laid off workers. There are no jobs for these people in these environment, they will be on a lot more public dole if the big 3 go under. Also, polls showed majority didn't believe in bank bailout either, or they believe in creationism, or some other foolishness. Majority of Americans are not qualified to make these decisions. Which is why in CA, where we have proposition process for direct democracy, we are in a huge fiscal mess.

Sounds like a never ending cycle of misery to me. Why enable and prolong it?
I would suspect these people can find a job with whoever takes over the big 3's assets. They may have to move south but Michigan sounds like a dump anyways.

Why prolong it? Because the economy is in no position to create an additional millions of jobs for laid off GM workers, right now. If you think the Japanese are going to hire them, you are delusional. Once they don't have American car industry to compete with politically, they'll just build cars in the cheapest place possible, which is not going to be in the US, north or south.

So where is your concern for other industries? Gambling employs nearly as many as the big 3. They are teetering on the brink of destruction. How about the airline industry?

Is the govt now going to be the safety for big industry should their business plans fail?

Japanese if they bought the big 3's assets would. Who else is going to produce those lines? Think Toyota would leave those factories and qualified workers in the United States to produce a Ford Explorer in Tokyo?

Noone is going to produce on those lines. They'll just join the ranks of other manufacturing jobs that will be outsourced to places with even cheaper labor. You can hire someone in China for what it costs to just provide healthcare for an American worker. There is plenty of manufacturing capacity there. They will not produce a Ford Explorer, there won't be a Ford Explorer. These jobs will be gone permanently.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Skoorb

they'll just build cars in the cheapest place possible, which is not going to be in the US, north or south.

Some tariffs could sort that out lickity split.

So let's put those tariffs in place now, before we lose our own car industry.

Heh are you Hoover reincarnated?

Japanese and Koreans are much more protectionist than we are of their own auto industry. We should not be unilaterally surrendering.