Yeah GOP!

[chess9]

No one wants the American auto industry to die. Get over your juvenile fantasies.

What we don't want to do is waste precious resources on an industry that will fail anyway.

-Robert

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87
So that is it huh Dari? Cant explain your logic for when democrats continue to fund the war and you keep blaming republicans?

The Iraq war was supported by most Republicans, even though it has given us nothing and protected us from nothing. Besides, I laid out my points on this war early on. You must be slow. But I used the war mainly because you supported it and still support it. Yet you don't support helping your fellow americans, because of your morose principals. With intelligent men such as yourself in the Republican Party, I can definitely see it going regional.

It was also supported and continues to be supported by Democrats. I support my fellow Americans. Throwing money at a failed business model only prolongs the pain for all.

And you need to read a little more. I have been for pulling out for about 18 months now.

But guess what? The WoT isnt over and wont be under Obama. He only plans to shift troops to Afghanistan. At some point I am hoping the idea of you of blaming republicans for democrat decisions and policies is pathetic will sink into your thick skull. But I also realize what a hack you are and what a pipedream that is.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87
So that is it huh Dari? Cant explain your logic for when democrats continue to fund the war and you keep blaming republicans?

The Iraq war was supported by most Republicans, even though it has given us nothing and protected us from nothing. Besides, I laid out my points on this war early on. You must be slow. But I used the war mainly because you supported it and still support it. Yet you don't support helping your fellow americans, because of your morose principals. With intelligent men such as yourself in the Republican Party, I can definitely see it going regional.

It was also supported and continues to be supported by Democrats. I support my fellow Americans. Throwing money at a failed business model only prolongs the pain for all.

And you need to read a little more. I have been for pulling out for about 18 months now.

But guess what? The WoT isnt over and wont be under Obama. He only plans to shift troops to Afghanistan. At some point I am hoping the idea of you of blaming republicans for democrat decisions and policies is pathetic will sink into your thick skull. But I also realize what a hack you are and what a pipedream that is.

:laugh:
Wow, you really are a shill. Somehow, someway, you've taken the Bush Administration's line of equating the Iraq War with the greater War on Terror. I was right about you (and your "principals") all along.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The fall of the big 3 and the rise of the Japanese is a perfect example of the free market at work.

The Japanese companies follow the free market when it comes to wages. They pay their work force a 'fair' wage and fair benefits based on where ever their plants are located.

The big 3 do not follow the free market because the unions hold them hostage to get better than average compensation. It is because of the unions holding them hostage that they caved in and gave life time medical and huge pensions and job banks etc etc etc. If there were no unions the big 3 would pay market wages and provide market benefits and would be far more competitive.

You can claim that the management of the big 3 'gave' the unions all those great perks, but that is like claiming a bank teller 'gave' money to a robber.

You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Try studying the Japanese political-economy then try repeating this garbage.

What are the per hour costs for the big 3 vs. the Japanese car plants in THIS country?

$70 something vs. $50 something I believe.

How did the costs of the big 3 get so high?

How do you think they can subsidize their American operations? Again, look at Mistubishi Motors, a car company that's still around even though they make cars nobody likes. Their cross-company holdings and the Japanese government will help at every opportunity.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87
So that is it huh Dari? Cant explain your logic for when democrats continue to fund the war and you keep blaming republicans?

The Iraq war was supported by most Republicans, even though it has given us nothing and protected us from nothing. Besides, I laid out my points on this war early on. You must be slow. But I used the war mainly because you supported it and still support it. Yet you don't support helping your fellow americans, because of your morose principals. With intelligent men such as yourself in the Republican Party, I can definitely see it going regional.

It was also supported and continues to be supported by Democrats. I support my fellow Americans. Throwing money at a failed business model only prolongs the pain for all.

And you need to read a little more. I have been for pulling out for about 18 months now.

But guess what? The WoT isnt over and wont be under Obama. He only plans to shift troops to Afghanistan. At some point I am hoping the idea of you of blaming republicans for democrat decisions and policies is pathetic will sink into your thick skull. But I also realize what a hack you are and what a pipedream that is.

:laugh:
Wow, you really are a shill. Somehow, someway, you've taken the Bush Administration's line of equating the Iraq War with the greater War on Terror. I was right about you (and your "principals") all along.

/facepalm

You and Dave should get a room.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87
So that is it huh Dari? Cant explain your logic for when democrats continue to fund the war and you keep blaming republicans?

The Iraq war was supported by most Republicans, even though it has given us nothing and protected us from nothing. Besides, I laid out my points on this war early on. You must be slow. But I used the war mainly because you supported it and still support it. Yet you don't support helping your fellow americans, because of your morose principals. With intelligent men such as yourself in the Republican Party, I can definitely see it going regional.

It was also supported and continues to be supported by Democrats. I support my fellow Americans. Throwing money at a failed business model only prolongs the pain for all.

And you need to read a little more. I have been for pulling out for about 18 months now.

But guess what? The WoT isnt over and wont be under Obama. He only plans to shift troops to Afghanistan. At some point I am hoping the idea of you of blaming republicans for democrat decisions and policies is pathetic will sink into your thick skull. But I also realize what a hack you are and what a pipedream that is.

:laugh:
Wow, you really are a shill. Somehow, someway, you've taken the Bush Administration's line of equating the Iraq War with the greater War on Terror. I was right about you (and your "principals") all along.

/facepalm

You and Dave should get a room.

It's amazing how you keep trying to switch focus when my main argument as been against you and your beliefs the whole time. Considering you have nothing substantial to defend yourself with, you instead try to turn the focus towards the 2006 Democratic winnings. Why don't you man up and defend yourself instead of deflecting blame?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87
So that is it huh Dari? Cant explain your logic for when democrats continue to fund the war and you keep blaming republicans?

The Iraq war was supported by most Republicans, even though it has given us nothing and protected us from nothing. Besides, I laid out my points on this war early on. You must be slow. But I used the war mainly because you supported it and still support it. Yet you don't support helping your fellow americans, because of your morose principals. With intelligent men such as yourself in the Republican Party, I can definitely see it going regional.

It was also supported and continues to be supported by Democrats. I support my fellow Americans. Throwing money at a failed business model only prolongs the pain for all.

And you need to read a little more. I have been for pulling out for about 18 months now.

But guess what? The WoT isnt over and wont be under Obama. He only plans to shift troops to Afghanistan. At some point I am hoping the idea of you of blaming republicans for democrat decisions and policies is pathetic will sink into your thick skull. But I also realize what a hack you are and what a pipedream that is.

:laugh:
Wow, you really are a shill. Somehow, someway, you've taken the Bush Administration's line of equating the Iraq War with the greater War on Terror. I was right about you (and your "principals") all along.

/facepalm

You and Dave should get a room.

It's amazing how you keep trying to switch focus when my main argument as been against you and your beliefs the whole time. Considering you have nothing substantial to defend yourself with, you instead try to turn the focus towards the 2006 Democratic winnings. Why don't you man up and defend yourself instead of deflecting blame?

Blame for what? My argument has been the same through this entire conversation. Democrats hold the keys and have for two years. How can you still place blame soley on republicans for contiuation of funding the war? And how will you continue to do so when democrats hold even more power once Obama and new democrats come to power?

Answer that or dont bother responding with more duhversion.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87
So that is it huh Dari? Cant explain your logic for when democrats continue to fund the war and you keep blaming republicans?

The Iraq war was supported by most Republicans, even though it has given us nothing and protected us from nothing. Besides, I laid out my points on this war early on. You must be slow. But I used the war mainly because you supported it and still support it. Yet you don't support helping your fellow americans, because of your morose principals. With intelligent men such as yourself in the Republican Party, I can definitely see it going regional.

It was also supported and continues to be supported by Democrats. I support my fellow Americans. Throwing money at a failed business model only prolongs the pain for all.

And you need to read a little more. I have been for pulling out for about 18 months now.

But guess what? The WoT isnt over and wont be under Obama. He only plans to shift troops to Afghanistan. At some point I am hoping the idea of you of blaming republicans for democrat decisions and policies is pathetic will sink into your thick skull. But I also realize what a hack you are and what a pipedream that is.

:laugh:
Wow, you really are a shill. Somehow, someway, you've taken the Bush Administration's line of equating the Iraq War with the greater War on Terror. I was right about you (and your "principals") all along.

/facepalm

You and Dave should get a room.

It's amazing how you keep trying to switch focus when my main argument as been against you and your beliefs the whole time. Considering you have nothing substantial to defend yourself with, you instead try to turn the focus towards the 2006 Democratic winnings. Why don't you man up and defend yourself instead of deflecting blame?

Blame for what? My argument has been the same through this entire conversation. Democrats hold the keys and have for two years. How can you still place blame soley on republicans for contiuation of funding the war? And how will you continue to do so when democrats hold even more power once Obama and new democrats come to power?

Answer that or dont bother responding with more duhversion.

My point is, and has always been, that you supported a useless war that has done nothing for America and has cost us hundreds of billions of dollars. Yet, when it comes to helping out American manufacturing, you're against it. You truly are part of a ship of fools.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

But we should absolutely cut our nose off to spite our face.

Thanks.

They have not exhausted all avenues of BEFORE going to the people and asking for money.

The UAW is unwilling to make concessions.

why the hell should they get a dime?

When the big 3 have sold off all their assets that are draining them, leaned out their operations, spent some of their profit money and come up with a plan that is not the same old same old......THEN they can come ask for money...it does not mean they will get it....just that they can ask.

The same goes for the UAW....if they are not willing to make some concessions now....when will they be? As long as they are unwilling to play ball why should they get help?

So yeah...if you have these two stubborn giants that are going to fuck me over and take my money...no thanks...I'll do it myself and waste my money on my terms...not theirs.

The labor component of making a car is 10%. The UAW has already made concessions - starting 2009 -2010 the worker will actually make less than the non union workers working in state subsidized plants in the south.



Can we all stop the charade and call it what it is? This is R senators hoping to a) break the unions which traditionally vote Democratic, b) thinking that by breaking Detroit they will attract more car manufacturing jobs in their states, c) make the democrats & Bush look bad.

What those idiots do not realize is that they will have deal with the huge upheaval if detroit goes down. Even the car makers in their states will be affected.

And, once the union is busted, look for wages to drop across the board for car makers (the Japs only pay what they pay to keep unions out) - it will be a race to the bottom. The walmart effect.

 

[TraumaRN]

I hope the backlash against republicans is huge. I realize the UAW aint making any friends either but to kill this thing because they(UAW) wouldnt move the wage cuts forward a year is ridiculous. So they'd risk the next Great Depression over *that* And yet they will give the banks more money than God WITHOUT restrictions? The hypocrisy kills me. Not to mention these were loans. They would have been paid back in the end.

And a word to all you Americans who are celebrating that this loan package failed...well I'd rather not get banned so I'll stop now.

 

[chess9]

http://abcnews.go.com/Business...tory?id=6443946&page=1

There are better approaches than a bailout. See Altman's comments. These have been discussed before, I'm sure, but they are worth revisiting.

-Robert

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Dari
My point is, and has always been, that you supported a useless war that has done nothing for America and has cost us hundreds of billions of dollars. Yet, when it comes to helping out American manufacturing, you're against it. You truly are part of a ship of fools.

That is fine, point taken. Now answer my question.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari
My point is, and has always been, that you supported a useless war that has done nothing for America and has cost us hundreds of billions of dollars. Yet, when it comes to helping out American manufacturing, you're against it. You truly are part of a ship of fools.

That is fine, point taken. Now answer my question.

Well, if you admit to being a fool, there's no point in talking to you.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Good. The bailout needed to fail.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Good. The bailout needed to fail.

Ok that's fine, now what happens to the economy when the result is millions of unemployed? That's what concerns me, not the plight of the Union.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Good. The bailout needed to fail.

Look! It's another one.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Good. The bailout needed to fail.

Ok that's fine, now what happens to the economy when the result is millions of unemployed? That's what concerns me, not the plight of the Union.

You mean - what happens to the economy IF the result is millions of unemployed.

Then other car manufacturers will pick up the slack. Americans buy cars so there is still a healthy market for them. Not stupidly large numbers like yesteryear but still plenty to sustain well structured auto manufacturers.

File, restructure, and come back stronger. It's the only way to have a healthy industry for the long term.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

But we should absolutely cut our nose off to spite our face.

Thanks.

They have not exhausted all avenues of BEFORE going to the people and asking for money.

The UAW is unwilling to make concessions.

why the hell should they get a dime?

When the big 3 have sold off all their assets that are draining them, leaned out their operations, spent some of their profit money and come up with a plan that is not the same old same old......THEN they can come ask for money...it does not mean they will get it....just that they can ask.

The same goes for the UAW....if they are not willing to make some concessions now....when will they be? As long as they are unwilling to play ball why should they get help?

So yeah...if you have these two stubborn giants that are going to fuck me over and take my money...no thanks...I'll do it myself and waste my money on my terms...not theirs.

The labor component of making a car is 10%. The UAW has already made concessions - starting 2009 -2010 the worker will actually make less than the non union workers working in state subsidized plants in the south.



Can we all stop the charade and call it what it is? This is R senators hoping to a) break the unions which traditionally vote Democratic, b) thinking that by breaking Detroit they will attract more car manufacturing jobs in their states, c) make the democrats & Bush look bad.

What those idiots do not realize is that they will have deal with the huge upheaval if detroit goes down. Even the car makers in their states will be affected.

And, once the union is busted, look for wages to drop across the board for car makers (the Japs only pay what they pay to keep unions out) - it will be a race to the bottom. The walmart effect.

Ford and GM wont go tits up without the bailout.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

But we should absolutely cut our nose off to spite our face.

Thanks.

They have not exhausted all avenues of BEFORE going to the people and asking for money.

The UAW is unwilling to make concessions.

why the hell should they get a dime?

When the big 3 have sold off all their assets that are draining them, leaned out their operations, spent some of their profit money and come up with a plan that is not the same old same old......THEN they can come ask for money...it does not mean they will get it....just that they can ask.

The same goes for the UAW....if they are not willing to make some concessions now....when will they be? As long as they are unwilling to play ball why should they get help?

So yeah...if you have these two stubborn giants that are going to fuck me over and take my money...no thanks...I'll do it myself and waste my money on my terms...not theirs.

The labor component of making a car is 10%. The UAW has already made concessions - starting 2009 -2010 the worker will actually make less than the non union workers working in state subsidized plants in the south.



Can we all stop the charade and call it what it is? This is R senators hoping to a) break the unions which traditionally vote Democratic, b) thinking that by breaking Detroit they will attract more car manufacturing jobs in their states, c) make the democrats & Bush look bad.

What those idiots do not realize is that they will have deal with the huge upheaval if detroit goes down. Even the car makers in their states will be affected.

And, once the union is busted, look for wages to drop across the board for car makers (the Japs only pay what they pay to keep unions out) - it will be a race to the bottom. The walmart effect.

Ford and GM wont go tits up without the bailout.

but but but the sky is falling!!! The economy will collapse!!! Everyone will be on the streets!!! The only remedy is throwing money at it!!!

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari
My point is, and has always been, that you supported a useless war that has done nothing for America and has cost us hundreds of billions of dollars. Yet, when it comes to helping out American manufacturing, you're against it. You truly are part of a ship of fools.

That is fine, point taken. Now answer my question.

Well, if you admit to being a fool, there's no point in talking to you.

I'll take that answer to mean you realize your argument has serious flaws. And in realizing that you are going home and taking your toys with you.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Good. The bailout needed to fail.

Ok that's fine, now what happens to the economy when the result is millions of unemployed? That's what concerns me, not the plight of the Union.

Its very unlikely "millions" will be unemployed. Only Chrysler is in a serious situation. Ford and GM want the bailout because its an easy temporary fix for them.

 

[Corbett]

I live in Detroit and I'll be honest in saying that I don't want to see many people I know out of a job.

My dad is the global project manager for the blackberry project for all of Genera Motors, so yes, people very close to me are effected by the situation.

On the other hand, I don't think giving the big 3 these loans are going to fix the situation and are only a band-aid on a leg that needs amputation.

Everywhere I go I see people everday with that bumper sticker that says "Out of a job yet, keep buy foreign!" and I cringe every time I see it.

I've even considered making a few different bumper stickers such as :

Out of a job yet? Keep supporting the UAW.
or
Our of a job yet? Keep designing sub-standard products.

Michigan's economy has been in the crapper for almost 5 years now and its only going to get worse with or without these loans from the government.

But like I said, even if the big 3 get the loans, they will be right back in Washington years later asking for the same thing.

What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Good. The bailout needed to fail.

Ok that's fine, now what happens to the economy when the result is millions of unemployed? That's what concerns me, not the plight of the Union.

Its very unlikely "millions" will be unemployed. Only Chrysler is in a serious situation. Ford and GM want the bailout because its an easy temporary fix for them.

So you're confident that our economy won't take a big hit if we don't bail them out?

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: OFFascist
We shouldnt have bailed out the banks, but you cant change the past. We shouldnt be bailing out companies period.

But we should absolutely cut our nose off to spite our face.

Thanks.

They have not exhausted all avenues of BEFORE going to the people and asking for money.

The UAW is unwilling to make concessions.

why the hell should they get a dime?

When the big 3 have sold off all their assets that are draining them, leaned out their operations, spent some of their profit money and come up with a plan that is not the same old same old......THEN they can come ask for money...it does not mean they will get it....just that they can ask.

The same goes for the UAW....if they are not willing to make some concessions now....when will they be? As long as they are unwilling to play ball why should they get help?

So yeah...if you have these two stubborn giants that are going to fuck me over and take my money...no thanks...I'll do it myself and waste my money on my terms...not theirs.

The labor component of making a car is 10%. The UAW has already made concessions - starting 2009 -2010 the worker will actually make less than the non union workers working in state subsidized plants in the south.



Can we all stop the charade and call it what it is? This is R senators hoping to a) break the unions which traditionally vote Democratic, b) thinking that by breaking Detroit they will attract more car manufacturing jobs in their states, c) make the democrats & Bush look bad.

What those idiots do not realize is that they will have deal with the huge upheaval if detroit goes down. Even the car makers in their states will be affected.

And, once the union is busted, look for wages to drop across the board for car makers (the Japs only pay what they pay to keep unions out) - it will be a race to the bottom. The walmart effect.

Ford and GM wont go tits up without the bailout.

Go look at GMAC.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari
My point is, and has always been, that you supported a useless war that has done nothing for America and has cost us hundreds of billions of dollars. Yet, when it comes to helping out American manufacturing, you're against it. You truly are part of a ship of fools.

That is fine, point taken. Now answer my question.

Well, if you admit to being a fool, there's no point in talking to you.

I'll take that answer to mean you realize your argument has serious flaws. And in realizing that you are going home and taking your toys with you.

A foolish response, no doubt.