Yeah GOP!

[geno]

Originally posted by: senseamp
GOP is shilling for the Japanese Big 3 building cars in Southern states. They couldn't care less about the US autoworkers, economy, or even taxpayer who will have to pick up the pieces if Detroit goes bust.

The question is, which scenario lays the worst result on the taxpayer?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Noone is going to produce on those lines. They'll just join the ranks of other manufacturing jobs that will be outsourced to places with even cheaper labor. You can hire someone in China for what it costs to just provide healthcare for an American worker. There is plenty of manufacturing capacity there. They will not produce a Ford Explorer, there won't be a Ford Explorer. These jobs will be gone permanently.

So how do you explain foreign car manufacturers building plants and hiring American workers in the United States?

And yes there would be a Ford Explorer. It is a brand name that millions of people cling to. It will be a Ford Explorer produced by a foreign car company if Ford is sold.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Skoorb

they'll just build cars in the cheapest place possible, which is not going to be in the US, north or south.

Some tariffs could sort that out lickity split.

So let's put those tariffs in place now, before we lose our own car industry.

Heh are you Hoover reincarnated?

Japanese and Koreans are much more protectionist than we are of their own auto industry. We should not be unilaterally surrendering.

I'd take our standards of living and open markets over that any day of the week.
That said I am not against tariff's if one can prove there is an illegal business being done. Like for instance when Korea flooded our market with cheap steele and funded it with subsidies from the govt.

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: Ktulu
Without even going into trucks/suv's:

Malibu/Aura
Cobalt SS
Astra
Cruze (if it makes ever makes it here)
Volt (ditto)
Solstice/Sky
CTS(V)
Corvette(z51,z06,zr1)
Camaro
Fiesta
Fusion
G8
Mustang
Challenger
Any of the domestic hybrids

Stuff that will start falling apart the day after the warranty is up. I played the "domestics are getting more reliable" game time and time again. Never will I be fooled with that shit ever again.

Have fun with all your dash rattles.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: TheSlamma

Originally posted by: Ktulu
Without even going into trucks/suv's:

Malibu/Aura
Cobalt SS
Astra
Cruze (if it makes ever makes it here)
Volt (ditto)
Solstice/Sky
CTS(V)
Corvette(z51,z06,zr1)
Camaro
Fiesta
Fusion
G8
Mustang
Challenger
Any of the domestic hybrids

Stuff that will start falling apart the day after the warranty is up. I played the "domestics are getting more reliable" game time and time again. Never will I be fooled with that shit ever again.

Have fun with all your dash rattles.

Stupid as blanket statements like this is what is scaring people off, all car companies have issues. My 04 Silverado is just as good as the day I bought it yet my wifes 01 Civic has parts falling off, broken peices, and more wrench time on it. Guess which vehicle gets pushed the hardest. Go figure.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DeathBUA

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Good. The bailout needed to fail.

Ok that's fine, now what happens to the economy when the result is millions of unemployed? That's what concerns me, not the plight of the Union.

You mean - what happens to the economy IF the result is millions of unemployed.

Then other car manufacturers will pick up the slack. Americans buy cars so there is still a healthy market for them. Not stupidly large numbers like yesteryear but still plenty to sustain well structured auto manufacturers.

File, restructure, and come back stronger. It's the only way to have a healthy industry for the long term.

How would the other manufacturers pick up the slack?? If two out of the three fail thats a HUGE production hole to fill. I'd be willing to bet they'd be unable to pick up the slack for a few years.

And the economy will suffer if these companies go bankrupt. Thinking that it wouldn't is asinine. Sure they can restructure but what about all those suppliers...surely you can't expect them to all restructure and file for bankruptcy too?

IF 2 of the 3 fail - do you really think they'll just disappear? I'm not naive enough to fall for that sort of BS and neither should you. They won't just disappear if they file chap 11.

The economy will suffer longer if we just throw money at these companies and they don't get their shit straight. Again, there will be car demand regardless of what happens to the big 3(really only 2 supposedly in dire straights) so suppliers will have approx the same demand no matter what happens because people buy cars.

They will file Chapter 11, IF they can get DIP financing. Otherwise, they will need a merger with a viable company that can support them (unlikely), or they will liquidate under Chapter 7.

I wish only the best for the auto companies and especially their workers, but the chickens have finally come to roost from years of mismanagement by leaders of the Big Three. This is an example of a collosal failure of capitalism, much like what's happened on Wall Street, including today's news about Maddow's 50 billion dollar Ponzi scheme.

We were all fearful that Communism would bring down Capitalism, yet it's Capitalism's excesses that have brought Capitalism to its knees. If Marx were alive today, the irony for him would be rich indeed.

-Robert

:laugh: You think capitalism brought them down? Enjoy being a fool much?

The car industry is HEAVILY regulated - it most certainly is not close to being real capitalism.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Good. The bailout needed to fail.

Ok that's fine, now what happens to the economy when the result is millions of unemployed? That's what concerns me, not the plight of the Union.

It is not my job as a taxpayer to support an industry that is not profitable just to save jobs. We need to cut the fat so we can have real recovery at some point.


Next.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp
Noone is going to produce on those lines. They'll just join the ranks of other manufacturing jobs that will be outsourced to places with even cheaper labor. You can hire someone in China for what it costs to just provide healthcare for an American worker. There is plenty of manufacturing capacity there. They will not produce a Ford Explorer, there won't be a Ford Explorer. These jobs will be gone permanently.

So how do you explain foreign car manufacturers building plants and hiring American workers in the United States?

And yes there would be a Ford Explorer. It is a brand name that millions of people cling to. It will be a Ford Explorer produced by a foreign car company if Ford is sold.

They are managing political risk buy building in the US to protect themselves from a resurgence of protectionism. If Americans have no choice but to buy Japanese or European brands, that risk vanishes, and they no longer have any incentive to build in the US. The dollar is strong, labor is expensive, and healthcare system is a clusterfvck endangering companies that provide it for their employees. Not many good reasons to build in the US. Plus the leadership of these Japanese companies has loyalties to their countries, which I don't blame them for. They live there, and unlike Americans, they care about their country's auto industry and workers.

 

[cubby1223]

Democrat Chris Dodd told me Wall Street would collapse today because the evil Republicans blocked the bailout.

He lied to me.

 

[chess9]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/...autobailout/index.html
Reid Zakaria on the bailout. Most of this makes sense. I'm opposed to the bailout, however.

-Robert

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Skoorb

they'll just build cars in the cheapest place possible, which is not going to be in the US, north or south.

Some tariffs could sort that out lickity split.

So let's put those tariffs in place now, before we lose our own car industry.

Heh are you Hoover reincarnated?

Japanese and Koreans are much more protectionist than we are of their own auto industry. We should not be unilaterally surrendering.

I'd take our standards of living and open markets over that any day of the week.
That said I am not against tariff's if one can prove there is an illegal business being done. Like for instance when Korea flooded our market with cheap steele and funded it with subsidies from the govt.

It's going on right now. The main subsidy is governments of those countries subsidizing trade by propping up the US dollar against their currency by government spending on US treasuries, but there is also outright protectionism in play, especially in Korea, but Japan as well. This standard of living you are bragging about is supported by lending and cheap exports by foreigners, not real US economic growth. We are turning from a country of makers into a country of servants as most of our economy shifts from manufacturing into service sector.

 

[BoomerD]

Instead of bailing out the car companies by giving them cash and loans, how about giving every American family a coupon for $25,000 to use for the purchase of a new car?

That'd probably be cheaper for the government and taxpayers in the long run, and would stimulate the car industry...

 

[Genx87]

Gee what ever did we do before manufacturing?!?!?!?!?!?
We have been hearing this song and dance about the end of the United States due to turning into a service economy for decades. Yet every year our standard of living increases. Gee, I am starting to doubt those claims!

As for the rest of your claims about fake economic growth. How old are you? Honestly. Do you remember the days when basic cable tv, microwave ovens, vcrs, airconditiong, and a cordless phone were all luxury items? This was before cell phones, dvds, 70 inch TVs hooked into hundreds of HD channels, internet, and a 1500-2000 sq foot starter home.

 

[Jschmuck2]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Gee what ever did we do before manufacturing?!?!?!?!?!?
We have been hearing this song and dance about the end of the United States due to turning into a service economy for decades. Yet every year our standard of living increases. Gee, I am starting to doubt those claims!

As for the rest of your claims about fake economic growth. How old are you? Honestly. Do you remember the days when basic cable tv, microwave ovens, vcrs, airconditiong, and a cordless phone were all luxury items? This was before cell phones, dvds, 70 inch TVs hooked into hundreds of HD channels, internet, and a 1500-2000 sq foot starter home.

You have a 20/20 link in your signature.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Gee what ever did we do before manufacturing?!?!?!?!?!?

<Garbage snipped>

Nothing, just a country the world looked up to for it's freedom.

Then during the Industrial revolution the world looked up to for it's innovation.

Now the world looks down on for it's greed.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Gee what ever did we do before manufacturing?!?!?!?!?!?
We have been hearing this song and dance about the end of the United States due to turning into a service economy for decades. Yet every year our standard of living increases. Gee, I am starting to doubt those claims!

As for the rest of your claims about fake economic growth. How old are you? Honestly. Do you remember the days when basic cable tv, microwave ovens, vcrs, airconditiong, and a cordless phone were all luxury items? This was before cell phones, dvds, 70 inch TVs hooked into hundreds of HD channels, internet, and a 1500-2000 sq foot starter home.

Mostly financed by borrowed money and/or subsidized by currency manipulation by exporting governments.
You have a 20 year sample where the country has gone from a creditor to the biggest debtor in the world, and you are extrapolating it to infinity and beyond.
Yeah, you can live large by mortgaging everything you got to the hilt. For a while. Just don't delude yourself into thinking it's real prosperity.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Democrat Chris Dodd told me Wall Street would collapse today because the evil Republicans blocked the bailout.

He lied to me.

It was Harry Reid that said that. Shows just how much you're paying attention. +1 for your post count though! :thumbsup:

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp
Noone is going to produce on those lines. They'll just join the ranks of other manufacturing jobs that will be outsourced to places with even cheaper labor. You can hire someone in China for what it costs to just provide healthcare for an American worker. There is plenty of manufacturing capacity there. They will not produce a Ford Explorer, there won't be a Ford Explorer. These jobs will be gone permanently.

So how do you explain foreign car manufacturers building plants and hiring American workers in the United States?

And yes there would be a Ford Explorer. It is a brand name that millions of people cling to. It will be a Ford Explorer produced by a foreign car company if Ford is sold.

They are managing political risk buy building in the US to protect themselves from a resurgence of protectionism. If Americans have no choice but to buy Japanese or European brands, that risk vanishes, and they no longer have any incentive to build in the US. The dollar is strong, labor is expensive, and healthcare system is a clusterfvck endangering companies that provide it for their employees. Not many good reasons to build in the US. Plus the leadership of these Japanese companies has loyalties to their countries, which I don't blame them for. They live there, and unlike Americans, they care about their country's auto industry and workers.

With the US dollar worth about 91 yen now, compared with 245 yen in 1986, dollars are very cheap for the japanese. I'll bet the cost of a japanese autoworker is much higher than that of an American autoworker.
And with southern states giving them huge tax breaks to locate there, of course they will continue to manufacture in the US. With Detroit's iminent failure, look for expanded production of japanese cars here.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp
Noone is going to produce on those lines. They'll just join the ranks of other manufacturing jobs that will be outsourced to places with even cheaper labor. You can hire someone in China for what it costs to just provide healthcare for an American worker. There is plenty of manufacturing capacity there. They will not produce a Ford Explorer, there won't be a Ford Explorer. These jobs will be gone permanently.

So how do you explain foreign car manufacturers building plants and hiring American workers in the United States?

And yes there would be a Ford Explorer. It is a brand name that millions of people cling to. It will be a Ford Explorer produced by a foreign car company if Ford is sold.

They are managing political risk buy building in the US to protect themselves from a resurgence of protectionism. If Americans have no choice but to buy Japanese or European brands, that risk vanishes, and they no longer have any incentive to build in the US. The dollar is strong, labor is expensive, and healthcare system is a clusterfvck endangering companies that provide it for their employees. Not many good reasons to build in the US. Plus the leadership of these Japanese companies has loyalties to their countries, which I don't blame them for. They live there, and unlike Americans, they care about their country's auto industry and workers.

With the US dollar worth about 91 yen now, compared with 245 yen in 1986, dollars are very cheap for the japanese. I'll bet the cost of a japanese autoworker is much higher than that of an American autoworker.
And with southern states giving them huge tax breaks to locate there, of course they will continue to manufacture in the US. With Detroit's iminent failure, look for expanded production of japanese cars here.

How about Chinese autoworker? Or how about Mexican autoworker? Way cheaper than Americans.
Plus Japanese/Chinese/etc autoworker does not come with anchor of American health insurance premiums.

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87
Gee what ever did we do before manufacturing?!?!?!?!?!?

<Garbage snipped>

Nothing, just a country the world looked up to for it's freedom.

Then during the Industrial revolution the world looked up to for it's innovation.

Now the world looks down on for it's greed.

Dave....when did you ever start to care what others think about you?

who give a fuck what the rest of the world thinks.....they are a bunch of ungrateful bitches who will piss down our backs and tell us it's raining but have no problem knocking on our door when they need money.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: JS80
Finally GOP restoring faith.

Pshaw, They would do well to fall back on whatever "faith" they claim to have exclusivity of and beg forgiveness for their sins and guidance to the path of righteousness. But that would require contrition and that concept, let alone the word has been excised from the GOP lexicon.
If they had demanded that GM's CEO get lost as a condition for the money, THAT would have gone a long way to resoring any credibility.
But as for "faith", that would require a real commitment to serve the public's best interest, rather than their own. But as long as the propaganda works, there is no reason to change.

Originally posted by: JS80
But since when do the poor pay taxes?

Everytime they buy something major, or inherit something they tend to be less well served by the "Financial Community" than those of means. Who is more likely to be in contact with CPA's and Tax Advisors, or even know that they SHOULD? It's not classist as much as it is demographics. Then there's all that "Sales Tax" and Federal Fuel Taxes, and Taxes disguised as Fees and Surcharges, and then there's all those single males earning beaucoup bucks and paying income taxes in the Middle Class. They aren't "poor" but they're not rich either. Those taxes are still taxes.
It sounds good to say the working poor pay no taxes, but it's hard to deny the difference in the value between the dollar withheld for tax, and the value of the dollar finally refunded. Or that pesky " Self Employment Tax (Social Security) that those that were converted from Employee to Independant Contractor for tax purposes,(but in actuality highly illegal reclassification) and get a 1099 for the first time.
Multiply that a few million times and voila... poor people paying taxes.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: JS80
Finally GOP restoring faith.

But since when do the poor pay taxes?

Didn't you pay taxes today at lunch?

Stop trying to act like you're some rich guy when you're just as poor as everyone else.

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: JS80
Finally GOP restoring faith.

But since when do the poor pay taxes?

well, speaking as someone who only makes 8.05/hr part time as a college student working for the school I attend, who is a single male therefore not eligible for public assistance programs.....I can tell you that I pay taxes.

I am by no means bitching, I chose this path and will walk it as long as I need to...the point is the poor do pay taxes....the question is do they pay as much as they take.

example:

Single mother 30ish, 2 kids, decided to go back to school for nursing....not because she wants to be a nurse as much as she sees $$$ signs in her eyes, gets welfare, a full ride to school, food stamps, free supplies for school such as a computer, books, gas to get to school, HEAP assistance for home heating and rent assistance just to name some of the benefits...now she works part time in a nursing home as a nursing assistant.....do you think she pays into the system proportionately to what she takes or will pay after she goes yo work full time?....no...she does/will not.


and yet she has money to buy cigarettes, beer, starbucks, and lottery tickets.

I see it every day.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Here some more info on the GOP strategy from TPM

What Happened

A quick update from a knowledgeable source who works in that big building with the dome ...

I don't think it'll be hard to explain why Senate Republicans had the final say: that's what the Constitution and Senate rules require. How else would we have passed anything?

I do think it'll be hard for Senate Republicans to explain themselves.

They were invited, repeatedly, to participate in more than a week of negotiations with a Republican White House. They declined.

They were asked to provide an alternative bill. They refused.

Finally, one of their members - Senator Corker of Tennessee - participated in a day-long negotiation with Senate Democrats, the UAW, and bondholders. Everyone made major concessions. Democrats gave up efficiency and emissions standards. UAW accepted major benefit cuts and agreed to reduce workers' wages. Bondholders signed off on a serious haircut. But when Senator Corker took the deal back to the Republican Conference, they argued for two hours and ultimately rejected it.

Why? Because they wanted the federal government to forcibly reduce the wages of American workers within the next 12 months.

Heard this morning that President Bush may still use TARP money to rescue the automakers. He reportedly doesn't want to end up as the next Hoover.

Also from MSNBC

GOP: 'Action Alert - Auto Bailout'
Countdown has obtained a memo entitled "Action Alert - Auto Bailout," and sent Wednesday at 9:12am, to Senate Republicans. The names of the sender(s) and recipient(s) have been redacted in the copy Countdown obtained. The Los Angeles Times reported that it was circulated among Senate Republicans. The brief memo outlines internal political strategy on the bailout, including the view that defeating the bailout represents a "first shot against organized labor." Senate Republicans blocked passage of the bailout late Thursday night, over its insistence on an immediate union pay cut. See the entire memo after the jump.

From:

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:12 AM

To:

Subject: Action Alert -- Auto Bailout

Today at noon, Senators Ensign, Shelby, Coburn and DeMint will hold a press conference in the Senate Radio/TV Gallery. They would appreciate our support through messaging and attending the press conference, if possible. The message they want us to deliver is:

1. This is the democrats first opportunity to payoff organized labor after the election. This is a precursor to card check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor, instead of taking their first blow from it.

2. This rush to judgment is the same thing that happened with the TARP. Members did not have an opportunity to read or digest the legislation and therefore could not understand the consequences of it. We should not rush to pass this because Detroit says the sky is falling.

The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press, the better. Please contact me if you need additional information. Again, the hardest thing for the democrats to do is get 60 votes. If we can hold the Republicans, we can beat this.

Basically confirms what I have been saying. That the R senators who doomed the loan to the auto co's were about union busting rather than any rational opposition. It was all about ideology and perhaps striking a blow at traditional Democratic supporters.

They would happily let a domestic owned manufacturing base die to gain a few political points.

I hope the American public sees through their games.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Here some more info on the GOP strategy from TPM

What Happened

A quick update from a knowledgeable source who works in that big building with the dome ...

I don't think it'll be hard to explain why Senate Republicans had the final say: that's what the Constitution and Senate rules require. How else would we have passed anything?

I do think it'll be hard for Senate Republicans to explain themselves.

They were invited, repeatedly, to participate in more than a week of negotiations with a Republican White House. They declined.

They were asked to provide an alternative bill. They refused.

Finally, one of their members - Senator Corker of Tennessee - participated in a day-long negotiation with Senate Democrats, the UAW, and bondholders. Everyone made major concessions. Democrats gave up efficiency and emissions standards. UAW accepted major benefit cuts and agreed to reduce workers' wages. Bondholders signed off on a serious haircut. But when Senator Corker took the deal back to the Republican Conference, they argued for two hours and ultimately rejected it.

Why? Because they wanted the federal government to forcibly reduce the wages of American workers within the next 12 months.

Heard this morning that President Bush may still use TARP money to rescue the automakers. He reportedly doesn't want to end up as the next Hoover.

Also from MSNBC

GOP: 'Action Alert - Auto Bailout'
Countdown has obtained a memo entitled "Action Alert - Auto Bailout," and sent Wednesday at 9:12am, to Senate Republicans. The names of the sender(s) and recipient(s) have been redacted in the copy Countdown obtained. The Los Angeles Times reported that it was circulated among Senate Republicans. The brief memo outlines internal political strategy on the bailout, including the view that defeating the bailout represents a "first shot against organized labor." Senate Republicans blocked passage of the bailout late Thursday night, over its insistence on an immediate union pay cut. See the entire memo after the jump.

From:

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:12 AM

To:

Subject: Action Alert -- Auto Bailout

Today at noon, Senators Ensign, Shelby, Coburn and DeMint will hold a press conference in the Senate Radio/TV Gallery. They would appreciate our support through messaging and attending the press conference, if possible. The message they want us to deliver is:

1. This is the democrats first opportunity to payoff organized labor after the election. This is a precursor to card check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor, instead of taking their first blow from it.

2. This rush to judgment is the same thing that happened with the TARP. Members did not have an opportunity to read or digest the legislation and therefore could not understand the consequences of it. We should not rush to pass this because Detroit says the sky is falling.

The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press, the better. Please contact me if you need additional information. Again, the hardest thing for the democrats to do is get 60 votes. If we can hold the Republicans, we can beat this.

Basically confirms what I have been saying. That the R senators who doomed the loan to the auto co's were about union busting rather than any rational opposition. It was all about ideology and perhaps striking a blow at traditional Democratic supporters.

They would happily let a domestic owned manufacturing base die to gain a few political points.

I hope the American public sees through their games.

:roll: OR you could look at this as a Democrat payback to unions to bail them out. But it really depends on your politics since both sides will claim political/ideological reasons for the other side's actions.
There was no rational reason for the bailout IMO, what we got from the UAW, the big 3, the political left, and the MSM was fear mongering. Just because one opposes that fear mongering doesn't mean they have to provide an alternate - especially since the alternative for businesses who can't make it is already there.