Yeah GOP!

[JS80]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: JS80

Yup. to me, this bailout is a bailout of the unions. letting the big 3 go bk would effectively bankrupt the uaw, and make this a much better country.

So the UAW is so powerful that putting them out of business would be better for the country? Interesting notion.

Please explain the myriad of benefits if the Detroit 3 file bankruptcy.

The company will have the protection to fix the business and not be hampered by a union. It may be they end up selling divisions to competitiors or outright be bought out. Either way what comes out on the other side should be in better shape to actually prosper in a world of higher energy prices. Not be required to come begging for tax payer handouts everytime the economy dips.

The airline industry went through this a few years ago.

Cute. I thought you'd explain how this would be better for the country, instead you use someone else's previous reply that didn't address the question. Your answer confims my suspicions, but it's okay, I understand.

efficiency and productivity is better for the country. the UAW is the opposite of that.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: JS80
Finally GOP restoring faith.

But since when do the poor pay taxes?

How is this "restoring faith"?

Instead of restraining spending in the last 8 years they spent like drunken sailors. Instead of restraining borrowing and regulating more, they let the animals run wild.
Instead of being the stewards of the country they treated it as their own domain to be used and abused.

Now, as a result of their misdeeds, incompetence, and lack of foresight, we are in massive trouble. Instead of actually allowing the companies time to adjust to the new reality, instead of the fake one the Republicans allowed for the last 8 years, they are cutting them off.

It's like a parent encouraging a kid to misbehave, run wild, and cause problems and then chopping the kid's head off when they do.

The Republicans aren't restoring faith, they are passing the buck.

And here comes Mr. Money himself to remind us why we just HAVE to give every red cent to anybody who comes along asking for it.
"For the good of the economy" mind you.....

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: JS80

Yup. to me, this bailout is a bailout of the unions. letting the big 3 go bk would effectively bankrupt the uaw, and make this a much better country.

So the UAW is so powerful that putting them out of business would be better for the country? Interesting notion.

Please explain the myriad of benefits if the Detroit 3 file bankruptcy.

The company will have the protection to fix the business and not be hampered by a union. It may be they end up selling divisions to competitiors or outright be bought out. Either way what comes out on the other side should be in better shape to actually prosper in a world of higher energy prices. Not be required to come begging for tax payer handouts everytime the economy dips.

The airline industry went through this a few years ago.

Would you buy a car from a company that's in bankruptcy? Maintenance, warranty, parts, service, etc...? A big question mark would hang over all that. I wouldn't. Furthermore, for a lot of people, a car is the most expensive purchase they'll ever make. Tell me WTF would buy something like that from a company in bankruptcy?

Yes, I would buy a car from a company that emerged from bk and is no longer made with union labor.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: JS80
Finally GOP restoring faith.

But since when do the poor pay taxes?

How is this "restoring faith"?

Instead of restraining spending in the last 8 years they spent like drunken sailors. Instead of restraining borrowing and regulating more, they let the animals run wild.
Instead of being the stewards of the country they treated it as their own domain to be used and abused.

Now, as a result of their misdeeds, incompetence, and lack of foresight, we are in massive trouble. Instead of actually allowing the companies time to adjust to the new reality, instead of the fake one the Republicans allowed for the last 8 years, they are cutting them off.

It's like a parent encouraging a kid to misbehave, run wild, and cause problems and then chopping the kid's head off when they do.

The Republicans aren't restoring faith, they are passing the buck.

And here comes Mr. Money himself to remind us why we just HAVE to give every red cent to anybody who comes along asking for it.
"For the good of the economy" mind you.....

It was one thing to save the financial system from collapse, it's another to save a failing company that currently only benefits unions. Big 3 must die as it is and emerge slimmer and leaner.

 

[BoberFett]

Com on America!

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: JS80

Yup. to me, this bailout is a bailout of the unions. letting the big 3 go bk would effectively bankrupt the uaw, and make this a much better country.

So the UAW is so powerful that putting them out of business would be better for the country? Interesting notion.

Please explain the myriad of benefits if the Detroit 3 file bankruptcy.

The company will have the protection to fix the business and not be hampered by a union. It may be they end up selling divisions to competitiors or outright be bought out. Either way what comes out on the other side should be in better shape to actually prosper in a world of higher energy prices. Not be required to come begging for tax payer handouts everytime the economy dips.

The airline industry went through this a few years ago.

Would you buy a car from a company that's in bankruptcy? Maintenance, warranty, parts, service, etc...? A big question mark would hang over all that. I wouldn't. Furthermore, for a lot of people, a car is the most expensive purchase they'll ever make. Tell me WTF would buy something like that from a company in bankruptcy?

Yes, I would buy a car from a company that emerged from bk and is no longer made with union labor.

You answered your own question, not what I asked. Again, would you buy a car from a company in bankruptcy?

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: JS80

Yup. to me, this bailout is a bailout of the unions. letting the big 3 go bk would effectively bankrupt the uaw, and make this a much better country.

So the UAW is so powerful that putting them out of business would be better for the country? Interesting notion.

Please explain the myriad of benefits if the Detroit 3 file bankruptcy.

The company will have the protection to fix the business and not be hampered by a union. It may be they end up selling divisions to competitiors or outright be bought out. Either way what comes out on the other side should be in better shape to actually prosper in a world of higher energy prices. Not be required to come begging for tax payer handouts everytime the economy dips.

The airline industry went through this a few years ago.

Would you buy a car from a company that's in bankruptcy? Maintenance, warranty, parts, service, etc...? A big question mark would hang over all that. I wouldn't. Furthermore, for a lot of people, a car is the most expensive purchase they'll ever make. Tell me WTF would buy something like that from a company in bankruptcy?

Yes, I would buy a car from a company that emerged from bk and is no longer made with union labor.

You answered your own question, not what I asked. Again, would you buy a car from a company in bankruptcy?

No, I would wait and buy the car from the company that emerged from bk and is no longer made with union labor.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: JS80

Yup. to me, this bailout is a bailout of the unions. letting the big 3 go bk would effectively bankrupt the uaw, and make this a much better country.

So the UAW is so powerful that putting them out of business would be better for the country? Interesting notion.

Please explain the myriad of benefits if the Detroit 3 file bankruptcy.

The company will have the protection to fix the business and not be hampered by a union. It may be they end up selling divisions to competitiors or outright be bought out. Either way what comes out on the other side should be in better shape to actually prosper in a world of higher energy prices. Not be required to come begging for tax payer handouts everytime the economy dips.

The airline industry went through this a few years ago.

Would you buy a car from a company that's in bankruptcy? Maintenance, warranty, parts, service, etc...? A big question mark would hang over all that. I wouldn't. Furthermore, for a lot of people, a car is the most expensive purchase they'll ever make. Tell me WTF would buy something like that from a company in bankruptcy?

Yes, I would buy a car from a company that emerged from bk and is no longer made with union labor.

You answered your own question, not what I asked. Again, would you buy a car from a company in bankruptcy?

No, I would wait and buy the car from the company that emerged from bk and is no longer made with union labor.

So if everyone did what you just said, the company would definitely go out of business. Thanks for proving my point on why bankruptcy is useless to these car companies.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: JS80
Finally GOP restoring faith.

But since when do the poor pay taxes?

How is this "restoring faith"?

Instead of restraining spending in the last 8 years they spent like drunken sailors. Instead of restraining borrowing and regulating more, they let the animals run wild.
Instead of being the stewards of the country they treated it as their own domain to be used and abused.

Now, as a result of their misdeeds, incompetence, and lack of foresight, we are in massive trouble. Instead of actually allowing the companies time to adjust to the new reality, instead of the fake one the Republicans allowed for the last 8 years, they are cutting them off.

It's like a parent encouraging a kid to misbehave, run wild, and cause problems and then chopping the kid's head off when they do.

The Republicans aren't restoring faith, they are passing the buck.

And here comes Mr. Money himself to remind us why we just HAVE to give every red cent to anybody who comes along asking for it.
"For the good of the economy" mind you.....

Here's an idea. How about we change how these types of bailouts are done. We vote based upon our proportion of how much tax money it'll take to support them.

Personally, I put in more than 70K in taxes last year. How many votes does that buy me compared to you?

Unless you paid on par, you lose. How's that for "Mr. Money"?

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: JS80

No, I would wait and buy the car from the company that emerged from bk and is no longer made with union labor.

So if everyone did what you just said, the company would definitely go out of business. Thanks for proving my point on why bankruptcy is useless to these car companies.

I fail to see what point you proved. They are going bk no matter what at the burn rate right now. They will inevitably burn through the bailout money and will file bk.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: JS80

No, I would wait and buy the car from the company that emerged from bk and is no longer made with union labor.

So if everyone did what you just said, the company would definitely go out of business. Thanks for proving my point on why bankruptcy is useless to these car companies.

I fail to see what point you proved. They are going bk no matter what at the burn rate right now. They will inevitably burn through the bailout money and will file bk.

To play devil's advocate here, you seem to dodge the question with the anti-union stipulation. It would seem that you seem to care more about breaking the union than the bankruptcy/reorganization question. What if they did go into chapter 11 and still came out without getting rid of the UAW, or restarted their union after the reorganization went through? Remember that the union and its members have obligations that must be met by law before many other creditors in chapter 11...

Responses like this only seem to confirm my suspicion that opposition to the bailout has more to do with union-busting than it does with the bailout as a matter of fiscal/industrial policy...

 

[Chunkee]

We need to stay focused on what is best for US and USA.... WE CANNOT KEEP REWARDING bad choices or decisions. Being large scale should not have different set of rules. Perhaps then, the little guy can make a go of it instead of getting smashed by huge GREEDY corporations and we can get some semblance back of good service, and products that include English speaking people and service that does not make you want to kill someone.

I am over it all, and the bailouts (their refusal) is a great place to start. The Govt. should have begun with the banks and wall street asshats that lost your investments, your parents and grandparents...all of which have worked hard to have what little they have (had). I doubt you will see any of the car execs, wall street mops or banking jackoffs standing in any soup kitchen lines any time soon.

It is TIME TO STOP, REGROUP, and actually take action that fucking makes sense for the well being of the USA and the residents in it. NO more freeloading, no more stupid wars, no more damn paying for friends around the world that do no benefit us. WTF... ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!

NEXT...lets clean up welfare and pass the bill for open season on lobbyists, and term limits for all govt officials, including appointed positions. STAND UP LEMMINGS and do what is right...drop the beer and cigarettes, quit watching cable and ENGAGE... be ACTIVE...communicate to all of your representatives, you will not get my vote if things do not change. Get them back to work for US and USA instead of themselves and the fucking select few rich that seem to be above yet feed off the working stiff.

Be well all.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: JS80

No, I would wait and buy the car from the company that emerged from bk and is no longer made with union labor.

So if everyone did what you just said, the company would definitely go out of business. Thanks for proving my point on why bankruptcy is useless to these car companies.

I fail to see what point you proved. They are going bk no matter what at the burn rate right now. They will inevitably burn through the bailout money and will file bk.

To play devil's advocate here, you seem to dodge the question with the anti-union stipulation. It would seem that you seem to care more about breaking the union than the bankruptcy/reorganization question. What if they did go into chapter 11 and still came out without getting rid of the UAW, or restarted their union after the reorganization went through? Remember that the union and its members have obligations that must be met by law before many other creditors in chapter 11...

Responses like this only seem to confirm my suspicion that opposition to the bailout has more to do with union-busting than it does with the bailout as a matter of fiscal/industrial policy...

Why can't it be both?

 

[Lemon law]

This is both a political and a moral problem. And compared to the much larger financial system bail out, it seems a no brainer to me.

Basically, we are bailing out bankers for their own foolishness, not only did they dupe themselves into making foolish loans, they ran a 60 trillion dollar gambling casino on the side.

Quite frankly, if we took all these overpriced bankers and investment guru's and lined them against walls and shot them, the world would be a better place after we rebuilt the banking system into the service industry it should be. Because these people never added any value to anything.

The auto industry on the contrary adds value, turning raw materials into finished goods, and there are two basic reasons the American auto industry is in trouble compared to foreign competitors also building cars in the USA. (1) The US big three automotive top management has been building and engineering the wrong products. This much change and top management should be fired.(2) And while various foreign competitors operating in the USA pay non union labor equivalent union labor rates, they have not been in business long enough in the USA to have their health care and retirement costs even come close to those of the big three. In 10-15 years the foreign competitors will catch up and lose their cost advantages.

Meanwhile, millions of US value added jobs hinge on our automotive industry. Right now, the GOP can block any bailout in the Senate, and if they do, it may be too late when times change when the next congress convenes in early January of 2009. But after early January 2009, the GOP is going to have to filibuster to block a bail out, and if millions of domestic automotive jobs are then lost, its going to be political suicide for the GOP.

As for me. my position is and remains, not a dime for investment guru's, but we need American jobs. 700 billion V. 14 billion, how selfish can the GOP be?

 

[theeedude]

Didn't the GOP cause enough damage to this country's economy already when they voted down the bank bailout, undermining confidence in the markets?
Right now it looks like they are shilling for Japanese automakers and trying to undermine the US economy to make Democrats look bad. I guess they haven't learn the lesson of 2006, and they haven't learned the lesson of 2008, which means they need to be taught another lesson in 2010.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Dari
-snip-
Thanks for proving my point on why bankruptcy is useless to these car companies.

Pardon me for jumping in on the whole "bankruptcy" -thingy. But I don't think bankruptcy need be the total *fail* you claim.

Congress has several choices:

1. Ignore the pleas and let the automakers fail.

2. Provide them with inadequate funds thus ensuring they fail anyway, and wasting taxpayer money at the same time. (loans won't be paid back).

3. Commiting the resourses necessary to ensure they survive, but under their current structure/business model.

4. Committing the resources to ensure their survival, but doing so under an improved structure/busines model.

IMO, you do either #1 or #4.

Throwing so little (although in billions) at the problem that it's bound to fail anyway, or trying to support it under the current circumstances would so costly that it's pure stupidity.

If they wanna save it - restructure it; and bankruptcy is the proper tool for that.

If Congress wants to rescue the automakers, whether bankruptcy or not they are going to have to fund them. The automakers can't get financing now, nor will they be able to in bankruptcy. So, it's up to the government.

If the government fully backs the automakers, and their warranties etc I see no reason why people need be reluctant to purchase from them. In fact, even less so than now. By your own argument, why would people buy from them now? They are now facing certain bankruptcy (excluding Ford), and without the governments help it would be a liquidation bankruptcy, why would people buy now knowing they are going to be bankrupt/liquidated soon? It makes no sense.

Either let them fail, or fix them up properly (so that we have a much better chance of getting our tax dollars back). Half-@ssed measures will be a disaster.

Fern

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
This is both a political and a moral problem. And compared to the much larger financial system bail out, it seems a no brainer to me.

Basically, we are bailing out bankers for their own foolishness, not only did they dupe themselves into making foolish loans, they ran a 60 trillion dollar gambling casino on the side.

Quite frankly, if we took all these overpriced bankers and investment guru's and lined them against walls and shot them, the world would be a better place after we rebuilt the banking system into the service industry it should be. Because these people never added any value to anything.

The auto industry on the contrary adds value, turning raw materials into finished goods, and there are two basic reasons the American auto industry is in trouble compared to foreign competitors also building cars in the USA. (1) The US big three automotive top management has been building and engineering the wrong products. This much change and top management should be fired.(2) And while various foreign competitors operating in the USA pay non union labor equivalent union labor rates, they have not been in business long enough in the USA to have their health care and retirement costs even come close to those of the big three. In 10-15 years the foreign competitors will catch up and lose their cost advantages.

Meanwhile, millions of US value added jobs hinge on our automotive industry. Right now, the GOP can block any bailout in the Senate, and if they do, it may be too late when times change when the next congress convenes in early January of 2009. But after early January 2009, the GOP is going to have to filibuster to block a bail out, and if millions of domestic automotive jobs are then lost, its going to be political suicide for the GOP.

As for me. my position is and remains, not a dime for investment guru's, but we need American jobs. 700 billion V. 14 billion, how selfish can the GOP be?

LOL, so the rest of the country is nothing more than a bunch of immature babies who cannot make decisions on their own?

I laugh at people who blame *ALL* of this one one faction or another. It's not even close to 60TR anyway, unless you include derivative notional amount, which is just ridiculous.

Never added value to anything? Let me guess, you picked that up from a Wall Street showing on TBS? Get a fucking clue, intellectual capital is still "adding" something. Just because some people took it overboard doesn't mean that "all" need to be lined up.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: JS80

Yup. to me, this bailout is a bailout of the unions. letting the big 3 go bk would effectively bankrupt the uaw, and make this a much better country.

So the UAW is so powerful that putting them out of business would be better for the country? Interesting notion.

Please explain the myriad of benefits if the Detroit 3 file bankruptcy.

The company will have the protection to fix the business and not be hampered by a union. It may be they end up selling divisions to competitiors or outright be bought out. Either way what comes out on the other side should be in better shape to actually prosper in a world of higher energy prices. Not be required to come begging for tax payer handouts everytime the economy dips.

The airline industry went through this a few years ago.

Cute. I thought you'd explain how this would be better for the country, instead you use someone else's previous reply that didn't address the question. Your answer confirms my suspicions, but it's okay, I understand.

efficiency and productivity is better for the country. the UAW is the opposite of that.

Teachers, many state and municipal employees, mine workers, nurses, airline pilots, police, firefighters, and construction workers, just to name a few are typically union represented.

Would our country also be better off for these people to be non-represented? Some of these people are also represented by the UAW as they have been branching out for quite a number of years. So, I can assume that you don't travel by airplane, get sick, or live or work in a dwelling or structure? I'm basing this question on the following quote;

Yes, I would buy a car from a company that emerged from bk and is no longer made with union labor.

Here's some facts about efficiency at General Motors.

GM has the top transmission plant in North America.
Toledo, Ohio, ranked #1 at 2.37 hours per transmission.

GM has three of the top 10 assembly plants in North America.
Oshawa #1, Ontario, ranked #2 at 15.18 hours per vehicle.
Oshawa #2, Ontario, ranked #3 at 16.17 hours per vehicle.
Lordstown, Ohio, ranked #7 at 18.12 hours per vehicle.

GM vehicle assembly plants led in 11 of 20 North American assembly plant segments in which it competes--the most of any manufacturer:
Oshawa #2, Ontario (Grand Prix, Lacrosse) ranked first in the Midsize-Non-Premium Conventional Segment
Lansing Grand River, Mich. (STS) ranked first in the Midsize-Premium Conventional Segment
Oshawa #1, Ontario (Monte Carlo) ranked first in the Midsize-Non-Premium Sports Car Segment
Bowling Green, Ken. (Corvette, XLR) ranked first in the Midsize-Premium Sports Car Segment
Doraville, Ga. (Montana SV6, Relay, Terraza, Uplander) ranked first in the Midsize-Non-Premium Van Segment
Moraine, Ohio (9-7X) ranked first in the Midsize-Premium Utility Segment
Oshawa #1, Ontario (Impala) ranked first in the Large-Non-Premium Conventional Segment
Detroit-Hamtramck, Mich. (DTS) ranked first in the Large-Premium Conventional Segment
Arlington, Texas (Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon) ranked first in the Large-Non-Premium Utility Segment
Arlington, Texas (Escalade, Escalade ESV) ranked first in the Large-Premium Utility Segment
Wentzville, Mo. (Express, Savana) ranked first in the Large-Non-Premium Van Segment

GM has two of the top ten stamping plants in North America, based on the Stamping Index.
Silao, Mexico, ranked #5.
Parma, Ohio, ranked #9.

GM has five of the top 10 engine plants in North America.
Spring Hill, Tenn., ranked #2 at 2.53 hours per engine.
Flint South, Mich., ranked #5 at 3.07 hours per engine.
Flint North, Mich., ranked #6 at 3.09 hours per engine.
Tonawanda, New York, ranked #7 at 3.19 hours per engine.
Romulus, Mich., ranked #10 at 3.46 hours per engine.

GM led in three engine segments--up one from last year.
St. Catharines, Ontario, ranked #1 in 8 cylinder overhead valve.
Flint North, Mich., ranked #1 in 6 cylinder overhead valve.
Flint South, Mich., ranked #1 in 6 cylinder overhead cam.

These facts seem to dispel your belief that the UAW is a bastion of inefficiency. I base this on your comment below.

efficiency and productivity is better for the country. the UAW is the opposite of that.

You already stated that you have a huge disdain for the big 3 and the UAW. Why not leave it at that instead of making incorrect statements?

It's okay to have a hard-on for the UAW. Don't justify it by making false statements. You hate them, that's OK.

I'd really be curious to hear how they have wronged you for you to have such strong feelings against them.

 

[theeedude]

If big 3 fail, government is going to be on the hook for:
1. bailing out their pension and retiree health care plans
2. paying unemployment to their workers and/or bailing out state unemployment insurance funds
3. welfare and health benefits for families of workers
4. creating job programs to employ those workers
5. lost income tax revenues from these workers
That's just for starters.
The cost of cleaning up the mess left by a big 3 bankruptcy is going to be astronomical compared to the cost of bridge loans to delay/avoid it. Even if that money does nothing more than delay an inevitable collapse for another year and is never repaid, it will cost less than simply paying social benefits to unemployed workers, families, and retirees for that same year. Now is simply not the time to let big 3 fail, because there are no jobs to replace the lost ones in the near to medium term. These workers will simply become a much bigger burden on the government if they are laid off.

 

[K1052]

The GOP and the UAW are playing a game of chicken.

Hopefully someone blinks before millions of jobs and billions in tax revenues dry up and blow away.

 

[LegendKiller]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to cram down the UAW, as is being done right now. They're getting hit in current costs, which will reduce future "legacy" costs. Legacy costs right now need to be dealt with.

The NYT (or was it WSJ) did a study on the breakdown of costs for the UAW compared to Toyota. At most, a UAW employee makes ~$6/hr more than a Toyota worker. The remainder of the differential, around $15/hr, is wrapped up in legacy costs.

Overall, the Union does an OK job at keeping workers efficient. It does block some automation, but not hugely so. People overstate the effects dramatically.

 

[jonks]

Oh, and I guess no reps wants to acknowledge that Pres Bush is also a member of the GOP (its titular leader actually) and he supports the bailout, but whatever. GO GOP! I mean some of the GOP!

 

[theeedude]

I don't think GOP quite gets what will happen if there is an extra million unemployed are added from big 3 collapse. If they think the bailout is big government, wait till they see what New Deal 2.0 programs will be created to deal with the economic fallout of not bailing out. If they want to avoid this, they better hope and pray that not only does the bailout go through, but that it goes through fast enough to still be effective.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: senseamp
If big 3 fail, government is going to be on the hook for:
1. bailing out their pension and retiree health care plans
2. paying unemployment to their workers and/or bailing out state unemployment insurance funds
3. welfare and health benefits for families of workers
4. creating job programs to employ those workers
5. lost income tax revenues from these workers
That's just for starters.
The cost of cleaning up the mess left by a big 3 bankruptcy is going to be astronomical compared to the cost of bridge loans to delay/avoid it. Even if that money does nothing more than delay an inevitable collapse for another year and is never repaid, it will cost less than simply paying social benefits to unemployed workers, families, and retirees for that same year. Now is simply not the time to let big 3 fail, because there are no jobs to replace the lost ones in the near to medium term. These workers will simply become a much bigger burden on the government if they are laid off.

I get the feeling that alot of people here including those in congress think that if the Big 3 get whiped out the foreign car companies are gonna come in and pick up where the Big 3 left off and save everyone from the effects of a Big 3 failure.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: sactoking
I support the R senators who are trying to stop this nonsense. I do not support the D House and the R White House that are in favor.

I support the R Senators who tried to kill the first bailout bill.

I support the R(were there many? Any?) and D Congressmen who did not support the war.

It's simple:
Money to bail out auto manufacturers = fail
Money to bail out financial institutions = fail
Money to pursue "freedom" in Iraq = fail

Yes, very sad but true. The billions on the war has been a large anchor on America and has plunged us into a hole of debt that can only ultimately lead to the USA defaulting on its bonds and bills.

Though GenX above fails to mention that during the years the Republicans did have control of Congress they spent like desperate housewives with an expensive shoe fetish, he does generally get the gist of what did happen-both parties decided deficits don't matter and think they can spend their way out of this mess. Republicans haven't given up their spendthrift ways, they simply want to give the Dems an unsolveable problem starting January 21, 2009.

I've opposed the bailouts because:

1. We don't have the money. You know this drill because most of you live in the real world, and not Congress;
2. The bailouts, if any, should be done from the bottom up, including helping desperate homeowners, the poor mothers, fixing our health insurance mess, and rebuilding our infrastructure.
3. Giving money to Wall Street without nationalizing the banks is a huge mistake. A private investor could have invested half the money the USA did and BOUGHT most of these big banks. Instead, the USA takes, what, a 7% stake? LOL. Talk about giving away the store. Paulson did this for his buddies, and the Dems on the Hill helped him! Why can't I' get these guys from the Hill into my ForSale threads here? I'd love to sell them a burned out P2 for $10,000.
4. Giving money to the auto industry makes only slightly more sense. The idea to give them one bite at the apple, then push them into bankruptcy, makes some sense. Ultimately, GM is going to be colored GONE, IMHO, because it's going to take a credit thaw to get buyers to the point they can buy a car. That won't happen for a year and meanwhile, GM will completely tank. Furthermore, the whole car sales paradigm is a 19th century relic. These cars should be selling on web sites without dealers and sales commission fees. Contract out warranty and repair work. Quit trying to sell us an overpriced car then hose us on repair costs in your overpriced dealership!

We need to get past this idea that we can't afford to lose the Big Three. We can't afford to KEEP THE BIG THREE. They are failures. If I were a college football coach those three PLAYERS would be selling peanuts in the stands. Please, I've seen all the longterm costs and re-thunk this several times. We are just feeding "crack" addicts by giving the Big Three money.

Take the money you'd spend on the Big Three and put it to good use helping Americans. We need to move on to the real 21st Century and get off this 19th century railroad to hell.

-Robert