YAGT: OMG I love guns

[Svnla]

Since ya'll are talking about ammo/bullets. Do the weights (gr.) of the ammo/bullet matter (if everything else are equal/same)?


For example: 9 mm => 115 gr., 124 gr., 147 gr., etc. (which is better)

.223/5.56 = 55 gr., 62 gr., etc. (which is better)

 

[rudeguy]

Since ya'll are talking about ammo/bullets. Do the weights (gr.) of the ammo/bullet matter (if everything else are equal/same)?


For example: 9 mm => 115 gr., 124 gr., 147 gr., etc. (which is better)

.223/5.56 = 55 gr., 62 gr., etc. (which is better)

bigger is better!

(no matter what your girlfriend says)

 

[BlitzPuppet]

Some guns like different weight ammo better than others. Try em all and see what you like best!

 

[phucheneh]

You're partially right in that +P+ is not a SAAMI spec and as such you don't know what you'll get, however +P most certainly is and has been for over a decade...

1993 Specs
http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

Revised 2013 specs
http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfPR.pdf

I stand corrected. As I said earlier, I like to learn and am cool with being wrong. Perhaps I'll switch my big 9mm (what I would grab for HD) over to +P.

I'm completely sold on 9mm now. I might get a 357 wheel gun down the road for a drawer gun but I'm going to build up my collection in 9mm only.

:thumbsup:

There is no shame in 9mm. .380 is where I draw the 'meh' line, and even it still has its purposes. I've never fired .357sig; fired .40 from a USP-C and some other similarly-sized guns. Only 10mm has been a 1911 and it was probably the neutered loads (LOL oxymoron...).

I consider myself a fairly manly man. I've developed a crazy ape-like grip and strong forearms from masturbating wrenching for a living. I still think 9mm is a great compromise in handling and power. I know I can put it on target quickly and repeatedly.

Oh, and that I won't be tremendously shocked and deafened by the noise. If anyone has never fired a handgun without hearing protection...be highly aware that IT IS FUCKING LOUD. It is not the movies. I remind people of that all the time, 'cause I think it's not mentioned enough...it would surely have an effect on me in the moment, which is one of the reasons I want a round I can pretty much magdump on reflex/instinct.

People can shoot whatever caliber they want- I just like to reassure that 9mm is not the nancy round some 'toughguys' will call it. It ain't a fucking .25 or something.

 

[irishScott]

bigger is better!

(no matter what your girlfriend says)

This, at least for non-plinking purposes.

 

[phucheneh]

Since ya'll are talking about ammo/bullets. Do the weights (gr.) of the ammo/bullet matter (if everything else are equal/same)?


For example: 9 mm => 115 gr., 124 gr., 147 gr., etc. (which is better)

.223/5.56 = 55 gr., 62 gr., etc. (which is better)

This might be a better discussion than 'which caliber,' as we all seem to have our own ideas. I stated that I liked my 135gr Critical Duty (oddball weight) because it was right around the upper limit of subsonic. 1050fps or so I think. In that case, I'm just transferring experience with other rounds...45ACP is a loud boom, but its subsonic nature makes it seem a hell of a lot less 'pierce your eardrums' loud than the really fast cartridges like .357 and .40.

I always thought 'common knowledge' was that heavier rounds should transfer their energy better and be less likely to overpenetrate. Earlier discussion was mentioned that higher velocity was the key to penetrating barriers.

 

[HumblePie]

For SD, I will point out that the22LR is the most lethal round for self defense according to FBI statistics More people have died to a 22lr round than any other. .357 sig is the next most lethal.

However, that statistic alone really doesn't explain anything. It's when you look at single shot, versus multiple shot, does a different story get told.

In shootings that had multiple rounds fired 22lr was not the most likely to be fatal at all. 9mm was and is followed by the .357 sig.

Of course this is a combination of years worth of data which included the statistics which included when police were using .357 sig a lot.

Point is, with 22lr mot people tend to aim better the first shot. Shot placement matters most when it comes to delivering a fatal shot. People that use other rounds aren't as accurate with their first shot as those with 22lr pistols. Mainly because the pistols are lighter to wield and thus initially aim. If the 22lr shot doesn't take someone down in the first shot, it mostly pissed the other person off a whole lot. Which is the next interesting statistic. Fatalities of the shooter after firing shots that were not immediately lethal. 22lr is the worst followed by 45 acp. 45 acp is mainly because it has less rounds to shot in most guns. 22lr is because if you aren't fatal with your first shot, the person you are shooting at is going to be able to screw up shot placement by the shooter after that. Sure they'll still be hit, but they won't be taking anything fatal afterwards usually.

Overall when combing recent statistics not including police action, the 9mm is one of the most lethal rounds over all. Easy for good shot placement on first and successful follow up shots. Plenty of firepower to make multiple shots if the first isn't immediately fatal.

Is it the most "powerful" round? No. But really who cares? It is more than capable of taking a living person or animal down in a single shot. 9mm is cheap. Easy to train with, guns hold lots of 9mm rounds for multiple shots, and if there is ever a SHTF scenario it will be easier to scrounge for ammo for it compared to other ammo types. Ammo is weightier than 22lr rounds, but not as weighty as other rounds that are more "powerful" when shot.

 

[corwin]

I stand corrected. As I said earlier, I like to learn and am cool with being wrong. Perhaps I'll switch my big 9mm (what I would grab for HD) over to +P.

Just remember being a spec doesn't mean your gun is rated for it Odds are any full size will handle +P and probably +P+ though...

This might be a better discussion than 'which caliber,' as we all seem to have our own ideas. I stated that I liked my 135gr Critical Duty (oddball weight) because it was right around the upper limit of subsonic. 1050fps or so I think. In that case, I'm just transferring experience with other rounds...45ACP is a loud boom, but its subsonic nature makes it seem a hell of a lot less 'pierce your eardrums' loud than the really fast cartridges like .357 and .40.

I always thought 'common knowledge' was that heavier rounds should transfer their energy better and be less likely to overpenetrate. Earlier discussion was mentioned that higher velocity was the key to penetrating barriers.

From recent research (just bought 2 boxes of 135gr +P critical duty 30 minutes ago) it's actually 1015fps for the non+P (+P was 1115fps), as I said though I opted for the +P

As for penetration it's a combination of many factors from velocity to bullet design, but overall the heavier bullets have more mass (duh) and as such have more impact at a given velocity, so usually heavier=better unless offset by more velocity

 

[IGemini]

Since ya'll are talking about ammo/bullets. Do the weights (gr.) of the ammo/bullet matter (if everything else are equal/same)?


For example: 9 mm => 115 gr., 124 gr., 147 gr., etc. (which is better)

.223/5.56 = 55 gr., 62 gr., etc. (which is better)

Going a little further than a catch-all answer, but from what I've seen for pistols:
SD/HD - higher grain-weight
Range/Practice - lower grain-weight

When I broke in my SIG I shot 115->124->147 in that order. What I noticed was that my grouping got better as the round got heavier, and that's not just from practice. I've had my fair time at the range with several different pistols but usually just with low-grain FMJ rounds and it was the first time I used JHPs on targets I could compare.

If you look at the energy ratings for pistol ammo, the general trend is that the lighter rounds have higher muzzle energy, which translates to more felt recoil (Newton's 2nd law) and forces you to exert more control. It seems to be the opposite for rifles, though. My reloading knowledge is limited but I THINK this is because rifle cartridges allow for more variability on powder loads (so they can maintain or increase the energy on higher gr weight), but it also means there's greater potential for over/underloading a round.

 

[shortylickens]

Dragon Skin is good shit.
Too bad about all the political nonsense surrounding it.

 

[Nebor]

Dragon Skin is good shit.
Too bad about all the political nonsense surrounding it.

Out of left field?

 

[corwin]

Going a little further than a catch-all answer, but from what I've seen for pistols:
SD/HD - higher grain-weight
Range/Practice - lower grain-weight

When I broke in my SIG I shot 115->124->147 in that order. What I noticed was that my grouping got better as the round got heavier, and that's not just from practice. I've had my fair time at the range with several different pistols but usually just with low-grain FMJ rounds and it was the first time I used JHPs on targets I could compare.

If you look at the energy ratings for pistol ammo, the general trend is that the lighter rounds have higher muzzle energy, which translates to more felt recoil (Newton's 2nd law) and forces you to exert more control. It seems to be the opposite for rifles, though. My reloading knowledge is limited but I THINK this is because rifle cartridges allow for more variability on powder loads (so they can maintain or increase the energy on higher gr weight), but it also means there's greater potential for over/underloading a round.

The accuracy differences have a lot more to it than just weight, better loading tolerances, bullets and powder in the nice stuff make a difference, that's why they are higher priced. Unless you're shooting for groups or have a ton of money to throw around (or are reloading) the cheap stuff is fine for practice, you'll do better (hopefully) if you ever have to use the nice stuff in a real world situation. As for muzzle energy it's an equation to figure it out and lighter does not usually indicate more muzzle energy. It's figured by mass times velocity, a heavier bullet at the same velocity has a higher muzzle energy while a lighter bullet would require more velocity to match it. Outside of that a bullets performance has little to do with muzzle energy...a 115gr FMJ and a 115gr HP have the same muzzle energy, the damage they do on impact will be significantly different though.

 

[boomhower]

Since ya'll are talking about ammo/bullets. Do the weights (gr.) of the ammo/bullet matter (if everything else are equal/same)?


For example: 9 mm => 115 gr., 124 gr., 147 gr., etc. (which is better)

.223/5.56 = 55 gr., 62 gr., etc. (which is better)

None are better. Each have their strengths and weaknesses. In general heavier rounds produce more penetration and less recoil, particularly for pistol rounds. Lighter bullets have a higher velocity. Personally I am a heavy for the weight kinda guy.

Rifle rounds it depends on the type of round as a lot are made for penetration but to fragment.

 

[exdeath]

I always prefer the bullet the gun was built for. 9mm = 124 gr, .40 = 180 gr, .45 = 230 gr.

I don't see a point to 147 gr 9mm or 150 gr 40. If I want the slower/faster or bigger/smaller bullet I will move to the appropriate caliber instead of pretending my .40 is a 9mm or .45.

 

[corwin]

I always prefer the bullet the gun was built for. 9mm = 124 gr, .40 = 180 gr, .45 = 230 gr.

I don't see a point to 147 gr 9mm or 150 gr 40. If I want the slower/faster or bigger/smaller bullet I will move to the appropriate caliber instead of pretending my .40 is a 9mm or .45.

And I'm sure you also prefer the gun the bullet was designed for, nothing but a 1911 should be chambered in .45 amiright? Ignoring ballistic advantages offered by various bullet weight and design advances in any particular caliber is just asinine...every "gun" is designed to fire a particular caliber, not a particular weight of bullet, some may work better with differing weights but they are all "designed" for any particular one

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

And I'm sure you also prefer the gun the bullet was designed for, nothing but a 1911 should be chambered in .45 amiright? Ignoring ballistic advantages offered by various bullet weight and design advances in any particular caliber is just asinine...every "gun" is designed to fire a particular caliber, not a particular weight of bullet, some may work better with differing weights but they are all "designed" for any particular one

Yeah, I don't even understand that logic as a theoretical matter. Certainly there are BDC optics which are designed to correspond to a particular bullet weight, but to me it's nonsensical to say that any gun is "built for" any particular weight. The optimal weight depends on the shooter and what the gun is being used for.

 

[HumblePie]

Since I target shoot for practice, I go with the cheapest ammo for the caliber for my guns right now. Which usually is the lighter weight rounds. For example I tend to shoot 115gr 9mm rounds. Only because they are cheaper. I've shot heavier rounds, but I really don't notice a difference when shooting at 5m or closer ranges with a pistol. There is a bit more noticeable accuracy differences at longer ranges, but I'm more out to practice form as well as familiarity than anything else. As well as just have fun. Shooting more is more fun than shooting less. This is my general equation.

Cheaper ammo = more ammo to shoot = shooting more = more fun!

So I could care less what weight I shoot with my bullet caliber really.

 

[corwin]

Since I target shoot for practice, I go with the cheapest ammo for the caliber for my guns right now. Which usually is the lighter weight rounds. For example I tend to shoot 115gr 9mm rounds. Only because they are cheaper. I've shot heavier rounds, but I really don't notice a difference when shooting at 5m or closer ranges with a pistol. There is a bit more noticeable accuracy differences at longer ranges, but I'm more out to practice form as well as familiarity than anything else. As well as just have fun. Shooting more is more fun than shooting less. This is my general equation.

Cheaper ammo = more ammo to shoot = shooting more = more fun!

So I could care less what weight I shoot with my bullet caliber really.

For target practice I would agree, but SD ammo on the other hand is another story, sure those cheap WWB 115gr hollow points would probably do the trick if I ever had to use them on somebody but I'll stick with my 135-147gr match grade ammo for carry use all the same. For that matter I bet more people are killed every year with FMJ ammo than hollow points, I seriously doubt gang bangers are dropping $1+ a round for good ammo for their drive-by's and assaults/robberies that make up the bulk of the gun deaths each year.

And for me I can't say that I actually "feel" any difference between weights, while I haven't fired a mixed mag of different weights before to compare shot to shot I've fired lots of different weights over the years and never noticed, but maybe I'm just not sensitive enough

 

[phucheneh]

Someone mentioned higher-velocity rounds having more recoil...I'm pretty sure that's not really a thing. At all. .22 versus .45 anyone?

Silly comparison, but I think it illustrated what I've always assumed to be true...bullet weight goes up, velocity goes down. Seems kinda 'duh,' but it's not as simple as 'the heavier thing is harder to accelerate,' is it?

All anyone ever rates ammo with is bullet weight, various velocities (muzzle, 50ft, ect), and pressure. Pressure being in the form of +P. Or +P+. Or +P++PPP+++PP+P+ or some shit if you're one of those dudes that enjoys reloading your own ammo and Glocks exploding in your hand. :awe:

What does powder charge do? I think I've always assumed that the amount of powder goes down as bullet weight goes up...it's not just 'x' amount of powder accelerating a 114gr bullet more easily than a 147gr bullet...it's the heavier bullet being a greater opposition to the expanding gases, so the amount of powder must decrease to to allow cartridge pressure to remain in spec. Right? Maybe? I dunno.

 

[phucheneh]

And for me I can't say that I actually "feel" any difference between weights, while I haven't fired a mixed mag of different weights before to compare shot to shot I've fired lots of different weights over the years and never noticed, but maybe I'm just not sensitive enough

I can't feel it. When I broke in my CW9 (14-15oz gun I think- that Newton dude says I would feel it the most with something so light, right?) I was loading both range FMJ (would've been Winchester, Federal, Blazer, or S&B) and the 135gr SD rounds in the same mag, in every configuration I could think of. A couple JHP's first to see how it fed on a full mag. A couple at the end to make sure it still fed the last round. And interspersed randomly throughout. I intentionally did not pay much attention to where I had loaded them when shooting...could not tell where I put them at all. Least of all during rapid fire.

Surprisingly to me, I couldn't even pick it out by muzzleflash...cheap ammo having that tendency to have a dirtier, more 'sparky' look.

 

[corwin]

I can't feel it. When I broke in my CW9 (14-15oz gun I think- that Newton dude says I would feel it the most with something so light, right?) I was loading both range FMJ (would've been Winchester, Federal, Blazer, or S&B) and the 135gr SD rounds in the same mag, in every configuration I could think of. A couple JHP's first to see how it fed on a full mag. A couple at the end to make sure it still fed the last round. And interspersed randomly throughout. I intentionally did not pay much attention to where I had loaded them when shooting...could not tell where I put them at all. Least of all during rapid fire.

Surprisingly to me, I couldn't even pick it out by muzzleflash...cheap ammo having that tendency to have a dirtier, more 'sparky' look.

Glad to hear it's not only me...I do plan to do my own direct test though, my P938 should be delivered tomorrow and when I finally do take it out I'll mix a couple mags of 115gr FMJ and the 135gr +P Critical Defense rounds I picked up for it today:awe: If I'm ever going to notice the difference then that little gun should be the one to show me

 

[desertdweller]

For target practice I would agree, but SD ammo on the other hand is another story, sure those cheap WWB 115gr hollow points would probably do the trick if I ever had to use them on somebody but I'll stick with my 135-147gr match grade ammo for carry use all the same. For that matter I bet more people are killed every year with FMJ ammo than hollow points, I seriously doubt gang bangers are dropping $1+ a round for good ammo for their drive-by's and assaults/robberies that make up the bulk of the gun deaths each year.

And for me I can't say that I actually "feel" any difference between weights, while I haven't fired a mixed mag of different weights before to compare shot to shot I've fired lots of different weights over the years and never noticed, but maybe I'm just not sensitive enough

Different weights do feel different, but, really only noticeable when firing quickly. For example, I've found in competition, 9mm 115gr JHP to be too snappy and 147gr JHP cause the gun to cycle too slow for my tastes.

When at the range and I have all day to line up the sites for the perfect grouping, it's not noticeable. When in a competition and I'm running a 30 to 35 round stage in 20 seconds, the different ammunition is very noticeable in how the gun reacts.

My current competition gun is a custom build 2011 chambered in .40. I use a 200gr coated lead bullet.

 

[Merad]

Someone mentioned higher-velocity rounds having more recoil...I'm pretty sure that's not really a thing. At all. .22 versus .45 anyone?

F=MA. If the bullets have the same mass, the one with the higher velocity has more recoil. How much recoil is felt by the shooter is extremely difficult to quantify, because it depends not just on bullet mass and velocity, but on the design of the gun, the mass of the gun, the grips installed, how it's held, etc...

Silly comparison, but I think it illustrated what I've always assumed to be true...bullet weight goes up, velocity goes down. Seems kinda 'duh,' but it's not as simple as 'the heavier thing is harder to accelerate,' is it?

If your barrel length and max pressure is the same, then the lighter bullet will always end up with the higher velocity because it accelerates more rapidly. A=F/M

What does powder charge do? I think I've always assumed that the amount of powder goes down as bullet weight goes up...it's not just 'x' amount of powder accelerating a 114gr bullet more easily than a 147gr bullet...it's the heavier bullet being a greater opposition to the expanding gases, so the amount of powder must decrease to to allow cartridge pressure to remain in spec. Right? Maybe? I dunno.

Pretty much. I've also read that pressure basically acts like an accelerant for smokeless powder (I'm no expert on the chemistry, though). So not only do you have higher pressures due to the bullet accelerating more slowly, but you have chain reaction with the powder's burn rate under the higher pressure, that spirals out of control into a kaboom. This is also why slower burning powders are preferred with heavier bullets.

 

[phucheneh]

F=MA. If the bullets have the same mass, the one with the higher velocity has more recoil. How much recoil is felt by the shooter is extremely difficult to quantify, because it depends not just on bullet mass and velocity, but on the design of the gun, the mass of the gun, the grips installed, how it's held, etc...

I stated that first bit in a confusing way. What I meant was that you can't compare 9mm apples to 9mm oranges (...yeah, that totally makes sense).

I agree with with you and did not question that. What I was stating was dubious was comparing different bullet weights and different velocities. 1100fps 115gr cannot be said to have more recoil than 900fps 147gr simply because it is faster.

If you attempt to go straight F=MA with bullet mass and muzzle velocity, I believe standard 9mm loads will all yield fairly similar numbers. I think that is good reasoning to explain why all 9mm recoil feels pretty much the same (again, given standard loads). But as far as the very technical physics are concerned, I don't know that it's that simple.

Hell, maybe it is...I just had a little lightbulb and realized that a faster round, per 'equal and opposite,' should always equate to an similar bump in the velocity of the slide (or bolt) given an equal pressure. The force is roughly the same, but greater velocity should equal more 'snap.' Unlikely to be enough to feel, but agrees with something like the general sentiment of 'snappier' recoil in high velocity .40 guns versus slowpoke .45.

Mmm. Physics.

 

[BladeVenom]

Heavier bullets tend to give more felt recoil, when energy levels of a caliber are similar.
Momentum = Mass x Velocity
Energy = 1/2 Mass x Velocity²

Blazer 9mm 115gr, 335 ft-lb energy, velocity 1145: Momentum 115x1145=131675
Blzaer 9mm 124gr, 327 ft-lb energy, velocty 1090: Momentum 124x1090=135160



Gratuitous 10mm Gold Dot pic: