YAGT: OMG I love guns

[BladeVenom]

I'm sure you can work magic with 10mm hand loads, but I've always read that the majority of 10mm factory ammo today is pretty anemic and really no more powerful than .40.

That's one downside. Most of the big ammo producers are still making FBI 10mm lite loads which is what the .40 S&W is based on.

I don't understand it. Once they came out with .40, everyone should have gone back to making their loads like the original full powered Norma loads.

Winchester Silvertips aren't too bad, but for full powered 10mm ammo, you make it yourself or buy it from one of the smaller ammo companies.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Full powered 10mm ammo is almost twice as powerful as 9mm.

Not quite; ignoring +P+ for a second since it isn't SAAMI, +P 9mm peaks to 450ft lb of energy; powerful 10mm rounds are around 750 or so; adding +P+ and 9mm goes up to 500 ft lb of energy. 10mm expands more given the size, and it IS a potent round, but I don't consider it the holy grail some make it out to be. +P 9mm is more controllable than 10mm, leading to faster follow up shots.

I carry 45 in self defense; I plan to rework my BHP for SD carry...but I would not carry 10mm in defense; I'd carry if in the wild (but really, I'd carry my .41 magnum in the wild because I trust a revolver more than a semi-auto.)

And I'm sure I don't need to say this, but I will anyway: shot placement matters more than the round's capabilities.

 

[shortylickens]

most people are NOT carrying +P

 

[corwin]

most people are NOT carrying +P

I wouldn't say most, hell I wouldn't say many even, almost all good sd ammo is +P...

 

[Nebor]

And to compare:

I get that 10mm is powerful, but I don't buy into the idea that it's THAT much better than a 9.

10mm loaded to spec delivers around 90% more muzzle energy than a 9mm. Yes, it is THAT much better. It has more energy at 100 yards than a 9mm round has at the muzzle. It outperforms a .357 Magnum in pretty much every regard.

Shooting hot 10mm loads out of a Glock 29 is not fun.

 

[RampantAndroid]

10mm loaded to spec delivers around 90% more muzzle energy than a 9mm. Yes, it is THAT much better. It has more energy at 100 yards than a 9mm round has at the muzzle. It outperforms a .357 Magnum in pretty much every regard.

Shooting hot 10mm loads out of a Glock 29 is not fun.

And a .41 magnum outperforms a 357 as well (and 41 is about the equal to 10mm, given 41 loses some energy in the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone.)

I'm well aware 10mm is more powerful; I'm also saying...well, who shoots regular pressure 9mm ammo in SD? We shoot +P or +P+ (personally, my BHP is not capable of handling the hotter +P+ loads without serious work and a tougher spring.) I'm saying 9mm affords you better recoil and handling while being lethal enough. So does 45, 40, 357 sig and so forth. I really cannot foresee myself ever in a situation where my 45 or my 9 isn't enough (and the lighter recoil lets me shoot more accurately, faster); if I ever in such a situation, I should likely be running, not shooting. If I'm at home, I'll have my M1 Carbine, 1903, Garand, M21, 44, 41 or my 1897 at my disposal (you get the idea.)

In the woods, I can see the need for a hotter load; magnum loads there suddenly make a lot of sense if you believe in carrying while in the woods (of course realizing that the 4 legged creatures are less likely to attack the the 2 legged kind.)

I've shot a G29; it kicked a bit and was incredibly small for that much recoil. It was not a gun I'd want to carry. If I wanted small, I'd sooner get a Sig P938.

 

[Nebor]

I tend to agree that the 10mm power isn't worth the tradeoffs. That's why I carry .357 Sig.

 

[phucheneh]

I tend to agree that the 10mm power isn't worth the tradeoffs. That's why I carry .357 Sig.

I started this whole damn thing with comments of 'I only wanna learn; not incite an argument.':whiste:

And you're the only one who answered my only real question, which was 'why .357sig.' Answer- Because you have confidence in it.

Good enough for me. Better than 'REAL MEN SHOOT 10MM' or some shit.

One thing I will say- I'd certainly rather carry .357sig than +P+ 9mm (I think that would be the rough equivalent?). And no, I don't agree that most 9mm users carry overpressure rounds of any variety. Self defense ammo is usually optionally made in +P. Dunno about +P+.

Seems like only selling a defense round in +P would be a liability. If I were an ammo manufacturer, I would certainly want to be able to fall back on 'you should have bought the ammo we make that your gun is rated for [dumbass]'.

Maybe I'm just a pussy, but I have no desire to use non-SAAMI ammo. Or NATO, or whatever spec I know the round I'm firing was designed around.

 

[exdeath]

most people are NOT carrying +P

Standard .40 S&W is "+P" by definition by default.

 

[Zargon]

I have 147 grain JHPs in 9mm, I do not think they are +p

my 38 special is +p golden saber though


10 mm is cool and all, but I have 9mm because of cost. its cheap. I have issues locating 9mm locally, but I can never get 10mm locally

 

[rudeguy]

most people are NOT carrying +P

most people carrying 9mm that I know use +p. Hell over on Glocktalk a lot of them use ++P made by a member there.

 

[rudeguy]

I have 147 grain JHPs in 9mm, I do not think they are +p

my 38 special is +p golden saber though


10 mm is cool and all, but I have 9mm because of cost. its cheap. I have issues locating 9mm locally, but I can never get 10mm locally

I'm completely sold on 9mm now. I might get a 357 wheel gun down the road for a drawer gun but I'm going to build up my collection in 9mm only.

 

[Zargon]

my 38 is a 642 airweight, it will be my small CCW gun if I can ever find time for the weekend of training IL requires that I've already had

everything else handgun wise I will try and stay with 9mm

it took a while to get 1000 rounds in the safe without my wife going WTF did you buy? adding another pricier caliber isn't going to be fun on the wallet for stocking

I only have like 400 rounds of 12g and ~200 of 38

 

[rudeguy]

my 38 is a 642 airweight, it will be my small CCW gun if I can ever find time for the weekend of training IL requires that I've already had

everything else handgun wise I will try and stay with 9mm

it took a while to get 1000 rounds in the safe without my wife going WTF did you buy? adding another pricier caliber isn't going to be fun on the wallet for stocking

I only have like 400 rounds of 12g and ~200 of 38

You really are not a smart person.

You should have bought her 1,000 rounds of ammo for her birthday! :awe:

 

[RampantAndroid]

I wouldn't say most, hell I wouldn't say many even, almost all good sd ammo is +P...

most people are NOT carrying +P

I'm going to agree with corwin here; any good SD ammo, be it in 9mm or in 45, is +P. Anyone not carrying +P is either a fool, not able to handle +P's characteristics, or is carrying a gun not capable of dealing with +P or allowing +P to be controllable.

You don't shove +P into a Ruger LCP or a Sig 938. You DO shove +P into a M&P, glock, carry 1911 and so forth. +P adds in excess of 100 ft lbs of energy, generally speaking and that is a non-trivial number. Regular P ammo can be lethal, but I see no reason to carry it for defensive reasons. I've shot +P ammo, I can handle it reasonably well so I think it makes sense to use it.

 

[ManBearPig]

deleted

 

[JackBurton]

I have 147 grain JHPs in 9mm, I do not think they are +p

my 38 special is +p golden saber though


10 mm is cool and all, but I have 9mm because of cost. its cheap. I have issues locating 9mm locally, but I can never get 10mm locally

Same with me. It's all about what you plan to use the gun for. For home defense, I don't see a scenario where 17 rounds of 147gr JHP 9mm won't be enough to get the job done. If that's not enough, another mag of 17 should do the trick in case your home was invaded by a small army of zombies.

Now if I'm out in the woods, I'd definitely want something more than a 9mm.

 

[rudeguy]

Same with me. It's all about what you plan to use the gun for. For home defense, I don't see a scenario where 17 rounds of 147gr JHP 9mm won't be enough to get the job done. If that's not enough, another mag of 17 should do the trick in case your home was invaded by a small army of zombies.

Now if I'm out in the woods, I'd definitely want something more than a 9mm.

what if they are zombies wearing leather helmets?

 

[JackBurton]

what if they are zombies wearing leather helmets?

Well, those are the smarter zombies and you just have to be really careful with them. But generally speaking, they're pretty slow so you should have time to target the face. Now if they have a steel mask, you're gonna have to blow the joint. Those guys are almost impossible to take down.

 

[rudeguy]

Well, those are the smarter zombies and you just have to be really careful with them. But generally speaking, they're pretty slow so you should have time to target the face. Now if they have a steel mask, you're gonna have to blow the joint. Those guys are almost impossible to take down.

:biggrin:

I won't turn this into another zombie thread but I won't lie....I have bought ammo and guns with the excuse of "well if the zombie outbreak DOES happen...."

 

[corwin]

You don't shove +P into a Ruger LCP or a Sig 938. You DO shove +P into a M&P, glock, carry 1911 and so forth. +P adds in excess of 100 ft lbs of energy, generally speaking and that is a non-trivial number. Regular P ammo can be lethal, but I see no reason to carry it for defensive reasons. I've shot +P ammo, I can handle it reasonably well so I think it makes sense to use it.

Actually the P938 is rated for +P ammo, Sig just notes that it will result in accelerated wear on some parts of the gun (duh)...that said who feeds any of their guns a steady diet of high powered SD ammo anyway? I'll put a box or two through it to verify feeding then they will just be loaded for carry purposes, the rest of the time will be standard FMJ for range practice

 

[corwin]

One thing I will say- I'd certainly rather carry .357sig than +P+ 9mm (I think that would be the rough equivalent?). And no, I don't agree that most 9mm users carry overpressure rounds of any variety. Self defense ammo is usually optionally made in +P. Dunno about +P+.

Seems like only selling a defense round in +P would be a liability. If I were an ammo manufacturer, I would certainly want to be able to fall back on 'you should have bought the ammo we make that your gun is rated for [dumbass]'.

Maybe I'm just a pussy, but I have no desire to use non-SAAMI ammo. Or NATO, or whatever spec I know the round I'm firing was designed around.

You're partially right in that +P+ is not a SAAMI spec and as such you don't know what you'll get, however +P most certainly is and has been for over a decade...

1993 Specs
http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

Revised 2013 specs
http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfPR.pdf

 

[clamum]

I've heard 147 gr Federal HST non +p is fine. Is that not the case?

I haven't heard otherwise. It's what I have in my carry gun, IIRC. I'd like to get some +P ammo in the near future, but I'm not too worried about it for now.

 

[NutBucket]

I would never use hand loads for self-defense. DA would just use it against me.

Empty the mag then there's no question about hand loads

 

[Zargon]

You really are not a smart person.

You should have bought her 1,000 rounds of ammo for her birthday! :awe:

LOL yes that would go over like a lead balloon

Same with me. It's all about what you plan to use the gun for. For home defense, I don't see a scenario where 17 rounds of 147gr JHP 9mm won't be enough to get the job done. If that's not enough, another mag of 17 should do the trick in case your home was invaded by a small army of zombies.

Now if I'm out in the woods, I'd definitely want something more than a 9mm.

If I'm in the woods I hope my glock 17 isn't my primary......