YAGT: OMG I love guns

[HumblePie]

and it was also something even when done that nobody was able to fire off a round (without doing special things). Like i mentioned you should look into it. plenty of people other than Springfield tried to recreate the firing portion of it without success. It took a modified gun from both the original guy and Springfield to actually fire rounds. Was the being able to not reset the trigger an issue...yeah. Was it truly a major massive safety issue....no. Just like most recalls it was a cover our ass and at the same time fix an intermediate level issue.

What?? no, there are youtube videos of people showing the problem exactly. Hell Yankee Marshall does it in one of his videos with his own XDS. He shows if you rack the slide without depressing the grip safety, the trigger doesn't reset. If you put a loaded magazine in the gun and rack the slide again it WILL fire a round. It was a verifiable, easily testable, and easy to obtain result. It was a flaw in the design. They changed the firing pin to a new moon shaped pin to fix it. How it fixes it I don't know that much. I only know there was a significant flaw in the initial design of the gun.

Others have commented that only idiots would try to rack the slide without depressing the grip safety. Which has a certain validness to it. The problem where it can be potentially dangerous is in the hands of a new shooter. Someone new to shooting, with a weak grip, and using the firearm can be set up for disaster. They fire a round and their hand slips off the grip safety while firing. The slide is pushed back from the round being fired, but since their hand came off the grip safety because they were holding the gun in a piss poor grip, as the slide comes forward to rack a new round the firing pin isn't in a locked position since the trigger isn't reset. It WILL fire another round without a trigger pull in that case causing basically as slam fire. Don't say you haven't seen new shooters that are afraid of the gun not have a proper grip on a gun and allow it to jump out of their hands. If a new shooter that already lost partial grip has a slamfire from this occur, guess what that slamfire shot is going to do? More than likely make the gun come completely out of their grip. The gun will fall if they lose control of their grip. The gun will still fire again during the fall if not continue to auto fire as each shot will force the slide back to load a new round while the grip safety is not depressed. Each time the slide goes forward is the potential for that free floating striker to move forward and strike the newly chambered bullet and cause it to fire again.

Also, all it takes is a bit of grit to get under the grip safety during a cleaning to prevent it from depressing correctly when the gun is being properly held. It can cause the same scenario. The racking of the slide should always reset the trigger. That was the problem with the XDS design as rolled out and why there was a complete recall.

It had nothing to do with some modified gun problem.

 

[exdeath]

Teflon isn't armor piercing. Tungsten carbide is. But its harder than the barrel so requires a soft jacket that won't eat the barrel. Doesn't have to be Teflon.


In theory:

9mm lacks mass to reliably carry momentum to penetrate multiple barriers.

.45 lacks velocity and has too big a cross section to punch through things without getting stuck and slowing down rapidly.

.40 is supposed to be the best of both worlds.

 

[HumblePie]

Teflon isn't armor piercing. Tungsten carbide is. But its harder than the barrel so requires a soft jacket that won't eat the barrel. Doesn't have to be Teflon.


In theory:

9mm lacks mass to reliably carry momentum to penetrate multiple barriers.

.45 lacks velocity and has too big a cross section to punch through things without getting stuck and slowing down rapidly.

.40 is supposed to be the best of both worlds.

Uhh the standard is 12 inches of penetration through 10% ballistic gel and 2 layers of denim. 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP are all able to achieve that right now. Have been for awhile. In 1986 there were some pretty wimpy 9mm JHP rounds that couldn't do that, but they do it just fine now. 45 acp never had a problem achieving that amount of penetration. It was just too heavy on the felt recoil and only came in single stack guns at the time.

You are right about the teflon not for the armor piercing per say. It just makes the tungsten coated bullets wear the barrels down less. So armor piercing small arms ammo is both tungsten and teflon coated.

 

[exdeath]

Uhh the standard is 12 inches of penetration through 10% ballistic gel and 2 layers of denim. 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP are all able to achieve that right now. Have been for awhile. In 1986 there were some pretty wimpy 9mm JHP rounds that couldn't do that, but they do it just fine now. 45 acp never had a problem achieving that amount of penetration. It was just too heavy on the felt recoil and only came in single stack guns at the time.

You are right about the teflon not for the armor piercing per say. It just makes the tungsten coated bullets wear the barrels down less. So armor piercing small arms ammo is both tungsten and teflon coated.

Not tungsten coated... solid tungsten core.

Armor penetration requires high cross sectional density and a material that won't deform compared to the target. A coating isn't going to cut it.

A tungsten core with a copper jacket is just fine. It doesn't need to be Teflon. Jacket selection is limited by what will readily bond to tungsten in a manufacturing process.

 

[HumblePie]

Not tungsten coated... solid tungsten core.

Armor penetration requires high cross sectional density and a material that won't deform compared to the target. A coating isn't going to cut it.

A tungsten core with a copper jacket is just fine. It doesn't need to be Teflon. Jacket selection is limited by what will readily bond to tungsten in a manufacturing process.

Just gave it a quick read through on the wiki before last updating as I am doing work. You are correct in that armor piercing bullets are basically harder core bullets that won't deform once the casing has been lost after impact.

 

[exdeath]

Just gave it a quick read through on the wiki before last updating as I am doing work. You are correct in that armor piercing bullets are basically harder core bullets that won't deform once the casing has been lost after impact.

A .458 Win Mag will defeat pretty much all reasonable armor with a standard 500 gr solid copper big game slug. Cross sectional density. Long dense bullets.
When the bullet and armor connect, they heat up and ablate each other. But the bullet is long so more undeformed bullet keeps coming behind the previously vaporized leading section. Eventually the armor runs out of material and the bullet wins the fight.

Stuff a 308 and 30-06 won't even scratch a blunt 458 will punch a clean hole without any special armor piercing core.

 

[HumblePie]

A .458 Win Mag will defeat pretty much all reasonable armor with a standard 500 gr solid copper big game slug. Cross sectional density. Long dense bullets.
When the bullet and armor connect, they heat up and ablate each other. But the bullet is long so more undeformed bullet keeps coming behind the previously vaporized leading section. Eventually the armor runs out of material and the bullet wins the fight.

Stuff a 308 and 30-06 won't even scratch a blunt 458 will punch a clean hole without any special armor piercing core.

You got me looking into that. Found this info. Not saying it's 100% accurate, but seems reasonable to me.

"Hard" body armor contains one or more hard plates carried in a Kevlar garment. The hard plate is normally made of high tech ceramic material, although some older plates could be made of AR500 armor steel. Steel plates in hard body armor are obsolete these days because of their excessive weight. The hard plates normally cover the front and rear of the torso only. There are some exotic armors such as Dragon Skin that have dozens of small overlapping hard plates that give wider coverage.

If a bullet misses the hard plate and hits only the Kevlar garment, it is encountering only soft body armor and will behave accordingly.

The primary mechanism by which bullets penetrate hard or soft armor is velocity, with bullet construction coming in second. A small, soft bullet travelling at 4,000 fps is more likely to penetrate hard body armor than a large solid bullet at 2,000 fps. Ceramic plates are lighter than steel, but can be brittle and may not withstand multiple hits.

Soft body armor normally stops projectiles that travel no faster than about 1,500 fps. Some AP bullets will do the trick at lower velocities, and some large bore projectiles such as shotgun slugs will be stopped by soft armor at somewhat higher velocities.

I have personally fired .22 RF Magnum rifle bullets (at about 1,800 fps) that went through soft body armor that contained 18 layers of Kevlar, and then fired 12 gauge Foster type slugs at the same armor and had the slugs stopped by the vest.

Soft body armor can be easily penetrated by sharp objects such as knives, but is useful against slashing attacks. There is special soft body armor that contains a mesh that does protect against edged weapons.

I have fired several arrows from compound bows at soft body armor and have never gotten a penetration, but I don't doubt that it could happen with certain razor style broadheads. Also, I have never heard of a documented case where someone was killed by blunt trauma from a vest that stopped a bullet. I would be interested in learning of any authentic cases. I am not claiming that blunt trauma cannot cause injury such as bruising or even a cracked rib, but I've never heard of a documented death.

I have 1/2" and 5/8" AR500 steel targets on my range at camp and have never had a .458 Winchester Magnum 500 gr. bullet do more than scratch the surface of the plates. However I will not fire my .220 Swift at those same plates at less than 200 yards for fear of penetrating or damaging them.

The ability of hard plates and armor steel to stop bullets varies with the angle of the impact and whether the plate can move when struck. The greater the angle and the more the plate can move or swing when hit, the better it will stop the bullet. These principles also apply to soft body armor.

Mild steel is another story. Lots of bullets that penetrate soft boiler plate will be stopped cold by a thinner sheet of genuine armor steel.

I do know the reason that handheld sharp objects are able to punch through soft body armor easily is because of the double hit effect of handheld weapons. When you make a stabbing motion with a knife the initial tip will hit the armor. Usually it is stopped. However, during that same motion of striking forward, the hand of the person wielding the weapon will still slide/travel forward along the grip to be stopped by the guard of the blade. That stoppage there is basically a second punch forward with the weapon. This is easily measured and I saw this demonstrated on a few firearm shows on TLC talking about body armor and such. Also, stabbing has far more force involved than a lightweight bullet. F=ma. A bulley may have a lot of acceleration, but very little mass. A knife attached to a person by way of their grip has far more mass behind the impact. While it has less velocity than a bullet, the actual force generated by the extra mass outweighs the force generated by most small arms.

 

[corwin]

Anybody ever try painting the rollmarks/lettering on their lowers? I'm really thinking about trying it, especially on my new "zombie" lower that should be delivered this week...

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Anybody ever try painting the rollmarks/lettering on their lowers? I'm really thinking about trying it, especially on my new "zombie" lower that should be delivered this week...

I would think it would be better to rub china marker or crayon into them so it could be more easily removed if you bork it or if a subsequent owner doesn't want it, but I have no actual experience with this. Certainly paint would work better on a high-heat area of the gun, but I would think crayon or china marker would be fine for the lower.

 

[corwin]

I would think it would be better to rub china marker or crayon into them so it could be more easily removed if you bork it or if a subsequent owner doesn't want it, but I have no actual experience with this.

Just learned what china markers are

I've heard that crayon and grease pencils come out often when cleaning though, was hoping for something a little more permanent...don't ever see a subsequent owner for any of my rifles and was hoping for confirmation that borking it could be cleaned out relatively easily with something without damaging the finish...looking at Testors model paint specifically

 

[exdeath]

You got me looking into that. Found this info. Not saying it's 100% accurate, but seems reasonable to me.



I do know the reason that handheld sharp objects are able to punch through soft body armor easily is because of the double hit effect of handheld weapons. When you make a stabbing motion with a knife the initial tip will hit the armor. Usually it is stopped. However, during that same motion of striking forward, the hand of the person wielding the weapon will still slide/travel forward along the grip to be stopped by the guard of the blade. That stoppage there is basically a second punch forward with the weapon. This is easily measured and I saw this demonstrated on a few firearm shows on TLC talking about body armor and such. Also, stabbing has far more force involved than a lightweight bullet. F=ma. A bulley may have a lot of acceleration, but very little mass. A knife attached to a person by way of their grip has far more mass behind the impact. While it has less velocity than a bullet, the actual force generated by the extra mass outweighs the force generated by most small arms.

There is more to it than velocity. A .458 will penetrate things that a much faster 3006, 308, and 223 will not.

Bullet mass to cross sectional area ratio (called sectional density) is the biggest factor in measuring big game penetration for example and is the only thing that matters to those guys.

 

[shortylickens]

WHo the fuck carries a 458?

I aint even seen one at the stores or gun shows around here. You'd have to special order it, and the ammo too.

 

[Merad]

Anybody ever try painting the rollmarks/lettering on their lowers? I'm really thinking about trying it, especially on my new "zombie" lower that should be delivered this week...

I tried using paint on my Glock, it was a pain in the ass and I didn't really like the look that much. Grease pencils look much much better and are really easy to do, but have the downside of smearing during use.

If you try the grease pencil route, wipe the lettering down lightly with oil or CLP or something before you hit it with the pencil. Makes it a lot easier to wipe of the excess.

 

[corwin]

I tried using paint on my Glock, it was a pain in the ass and I didn't really like the look that much. Grease pencils look much much better and are really easy to do, but have the downside of smearing during use.

If you try the grease pencil route, wipe the lettering down lightly with oil or CLP or something before you hit it with the pencil. Makes it a lot easier to wipe of the excess.

So that's grease pencil on there? And it stays?

 

[Merad]

So that's grease pencil on there? And it stays?

Yes. It's been about 6 months since I put it on there. It can smear a little bit when you touch it, so I'm sure it'll eventually need some touch up.

 

[Nebor]

Also somewhere up there...Re: .357sig and FTF...never thought about the impact the neck would have on loading. Does make sense that they would be far less likely to misfeed than a similar 9mm or 40. However, I of course went and read up on a few ammo-related topics and am as confused as ever as to why it exists. Note: I am not looking to incite debate, I just like learning firearm-related stuff.

I'm not even a .40 fan, but at least I can tell you what a .40 does that, on paper, makes it more deadly. I.e. heavier bullet, more powder (than 9mm). But .357sig...isn't it just a .40 case necked down to a 9mm bullet? Other than the effects of a pistol cartridge being necked, why not either .40 or 9mm?

I'm browsing loads right now, and best I can tell....40 is just 9mm with a heavier bullet (looking at weight versus muzzle velocity). And uses higher case pressures, IIRC, which I think is why I find it particularly loud and snappy. .357 is 9mm with more speed (and even higher pressures).

I dunno, I'm mostly just talking to myself and trying to figure why people don't just carry 135gr barely-subsonic 9mm and call it a day. I like this stuff and can't see why I might switch to anything else unless maybe I wanna lob 147gr bullets.

Take a look at the wound channels produced by .357 Sig JHPs. They also have good penetration against materials, and during my playing around, I've found that out a 4" barrel a .357 FMJ will punch through the front of IIIA soft armor, and out a 10" barrel usually exits the rear panel of IIIA soft armor.

I'm just a .357 Sig fan. Flawless feeding every time in every platform I've used it in, good ballistics and very accurate out to 100 yards. I don't encourage anyone else to use it though, more for me.

 

[Svnla]

Yes. It's been about 6 months since I put it on there. It can smear a little bit when you touch it, so I'm sure it'll eventually need some touch up.

Nice pic. How about a pic of the whole thing and specs of said gun? Look like it was from PSA. I am planning to get a CHF upper and Mapul lower from them soon (when they are not out of stock).

 

[corwin]

Yes. It's been about 6 months since I put it on there. It can smear a little bit when you touch it, so I'm sure it'll eventually need some touch up.

Damn, now I don't know...was wanting a more permanent solution but that does look pretty good even if it has to be touched up now and then, don't really like the smearing though...I'll probably try the paint and fall back on the grease pencil if I jack it up too bad or don't like the look of it:hmm:

Nice pic. How about a pic of the whole thing and specs of said gun? Look like it was from PSA. I am planning to get a CHF upper and Mapul lower from them soon (when they are not out of stock).

Could swear they had lowers in stock when I was looking earlier and I know they had a stainless steel mid-length CHF upper cause I'm toying with the idea of getting one

 

[Merad]

Nice pic. How about a pic of the whole thing and specs of said gun? Look like it was from PSA. I am planning to get a CHF upper and Mapul lower from them soon (when they are not out of stock).

Friend of mine (who isn't really a gun guy) bought it in April last year. It's a PSA 16" carbine length "M4". 1:7 chrome lined barrel, made by FN IIRC. He put all Magpul furniture on it, plus MBUS and Vortex Strikefire. He had something like $1200 dumped in it with case, ammo, etc. and had it about a month before he decided to sell it. At first he was asking $900 for the whole package, then a day later offered it to me for $800. His loss, my gain.

 

[BladeVenom]

Just learned what china markers are

I've heard that crayon and grease pencils come out often when cleaning though, was hoping for something a little more permanent...

Nail polish, and nail polish remover to clean it up, is another common method.

 

[BladeVenom]

I dunno, I'm mostly just talking to myself and trying to figure why people don't just carry 135gr barely-subsonic 9mm and call it a day. I like this stuff and can't see why I might switch to anything else unless maybe I wanna lob 147gr bullets.

From one of the 10mm forums,

 

[RampantAndroid]

From one of the 10mm forums,

And to compare:

I get that 10mm is powerful, but I don't buy into the idea that it's THAT much better than a 9.

 

[Merad]

I get that 10mm is powerful, but I don't buy into the idea that it's THAT much better than a 9.

I'm sure you can work magic with 10mm hand loads, but I've always read that the majority of 10mm factory ammo today is pretty anemic and really no more powerful than .40. Of course if you carry a 10mm and have really bad luck you might end up like that guy in the 90s who was attacked by the prosecution in his SD case for using an "ultra powerful 10mm with deadly hollow point bullets".

Personally I carry a 9mm with Federal LE 147gr which I got because they were a great deal, and I'm not worried about it...

 

[BladeVenom]

I get that 10mm is powerful, but I don't buy into the idea that it's THAT much better than a 9.

Full powered 10mm ammo is almost twice as powerful as 9mm.

 

[shortylickens]

I would never use hand loads for self-defense. DA would just use it against me.