work/life balance and security in Europe and US

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zoiks

Lifer
Jan 13, 2000
11,787
3
81
Originally posted by: Amused
With freedom comes risk. I rather be free than have cradle to grave security. I'll make my own security, thank you very much.

I'm sorry, but having a nanny government watch over me is not my idea of "better." I'm an adult. I don't need a fscking parent.

We're not that free anymore. We like to say we are though.
 

zoiks

Lifer
Jan 13, 2000
11,787
3
81
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: NeoV
I love how so few Americans are willing to concede that anything outside of our country is better.

I don't agree with many of the points the op made, but -

health care benefits
maternity leave
gun control

Are three HUGE areas that most of Europe has a giant advantage over the United States in.

You are seriously saying gun control is a positive?

Damn right it is.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,357
8,446
126
Originally posted by: fiksi
Really? I'm not communist or anything, i'm GLAD it's over...
Why would health benefits, caring for sick etc be communist? I still work... we work in Europe, ppl, we work!


Unemployment in EU is falling quickly, as economies are gaining momentum...
US is not economically that far ahead of Europe anymore. Look at the list of richest countries per capita, richer are some EU countries than US.

Also, US has MOUNTANEOS debt! Your debt is going through the roof!

Deficit? What's US trade deficit?


DID YOU know Germany EXPORTS more goods than ALL OF USA?? Us is importing goods, creating debt... on your backs. US deficit is RECORD high! Find me developed EU countries, with this high deficit...

or we're getting repaid for all the credit we've extended the world over the last 60 years.

as for the national debt, hey look we're tied with france.

and of course our budge deficits are higher, we've had to protect your sorry ungrateful asses for the last 60 years. and we've got a much larger economy.

big deal about germany exporting more goods, it's exporting most of it to the EU. lets take a look at california's exports to the rest of the US.
 

Kelvrick

Lifer
Feb 14, 2001
18,422
5
81
Originally posted by: zoiks
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
fiksi, you are an idiot. It's sad that you can't see past your own ignorance.

Thats very easy to say though I would think you'd have a little more constructive thoughts to offer. I think the OP has some valid points. Our Medical system is far from perfect among other things. Though Europe in general really isn't perfect either. Here in the US we have tougher trade laws that makes consumer lives a lot easier by forcing competition. We have tougher laws in companies and firms on how they handle the employees. Our political government structure is very good.
There are tradeoffs and while I've visited Europe and Asia all over, there's no where I'd rather be but here in the US.

I'd have to agree with MrDudeMan. I see points being given and the OP just going right back to the arguments a 10 yo would use. But, it wouldn't kill us to give someone this, and that, and then this. WHy, why, why.

We need a new forum named, "Stupid discussions that no nowhere."

I've been to my home country, Vietnam, Japan, a modernized asian country, england, mexico, canada, and belgium. I wouldn't live anywhere but here in the US.

EDIT: And it looks like a guncontrol flame war will be erupting soon.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,357
8,446
126
Originally posted by: fiksi

Well, it's not like i haven't been in US... i just wondered why my US colleague was afraid if he got bad teeth- when i heard prices they charge for little things, i couldn't believe it!

Few teeth, leg and kidney and you're bankrupt...

BTW- look at US economy, dollar is ALL time low, Deficit is record, debt is record... Euro is holding, unemployment is falling in EU. Wouldn't say US economy is doing great... if you keep piling that debt and deficit, it will be bad for you, and in THE end- for all of us.

what does trade deficit mean as long as the economy is still growing at a good clip? i guess you don't want people in other countries to have the prosperity that only trade can bring? typical euro, all hat and no cattle.

and the trade deficit is falling as the dollar continues its decline (and, frankly, i'd like it to decline more with the chinese finally floating the yuan, that'll make american workers more competitive).

go read adam smith.
 

zoiks

Lifer
Jan 13, 2000
11,787
3
81
Originally posted by: fiksi
Originally posted by: zoiks
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
fiksi, you are an idiot. It's sad that you can't see past your own ignorance.

Thats very easy to say though I would think you'd have a little more constructive thoughts to offer. I think the OP has some valid points. Our Medical system is far from perfect among other things. Though Europe in general really isn't perfect either. Here in the US we have tougher trade laws that makes consumer lives a lot easier by forcing competition. We have tougher laws in companies and firms on how they handle the employees. Our political government structure is very good.
There are tradeoffs and while I've visited Europe and Asia all over, there's no where I'd rather be but here in the US.


Well, it's not like i haven't been in US... i just wondered why my US colleague was afraid if he got bad teeth- when i heard prices they charge for little things, i couldn't believe it!

Few teeth, leg and kidney and you're bankrupt...

BTW- look at US economy, dollar is ALL time low, Deficit is record, debt is record... Euro is holding, unemployment is falling in EU. Wouldn't say US economy is doing great... if you keep piling that debt and deficit, it will be bad for you, and in THE end- for all of us.


The dollar had nowhere to go but low. But are you willing to guarantee that it won't go higher? Debt can be trimmed. Our previous government did just that before our current administration came to power. But our form of government is designed that when things become too bad, someone is elected that would make the reform. That is power of the people and that is America.

Yes the medical system here is not the best and it can get better. Maybe it will and maybe it won't but there are so many other things that are so much better than other places. Its no joke when the US is called the land of opportunity. Here where I live, if you are intelligent, willing to work and have aspirations; You are pretty much guaranteed to have a bright future and a very comfortable living.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Belgium Rulezzzzzzzzz because of our Beer

nuff said, I'm going to enjoy my 35 days of paid vacation :)
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
One thing that Europe does better than the US is education... Europeans actually have choice on where they send their kids, whether it's a private or public school and it creates incentives to actually do a good job teaching students! The Teachers Union in America has monopolized the American education system and has crippled us in that regard.

Edit: on an unrelated note, i think there's one or two european countries that have a higher per capita GDP than the USA (Luxumberg maybe? I forgot).
 

fiksi

Member
May 2, 2007
63
0
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: fiksi

Well, it's not like i haven't been in US... i just wondered why my US colleague was afraid if he got bad teeth- when i heard prices they charge for little things, i couldn't believe it!

Few teeth, leg and kidney and you're bankrupt...

BTW- look at US economy, dollar is ALL time low, Deficit is record, debt is record... Euro is holding, unemployment is falling in EU. Wouldn't say US economy is doing great... if you keep piling that debt and deficit, it will be bad for you, and in THE end- for all of us.

what does trade deficit mean as long as the economy is still growing at a good clip? i guess you don't want people in other countries to have the prosperity that only trade can bring? typical euro, all hat and no cattle.

and the trade deficit is falling as the dollar continues its decline (and, frankly, i'd like it to decline more with the chinese finally floating the yuan, that'll make american workers more competitive).

go read adam smith.


Are you saying trade deficit is good? Of course, as dollar falls, your exports will be more competitive...

But the problem with deficit is this- IT means you TAKE IN much, and EXPORT little.


I don't see doom or anything, but AFAIK, your OWN economists are worried about debt/deficit.

 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: fiksi

Well, it's not like i haven't been in US... i just wondered why my US colleague was afraid if he got bad teeth- when i heard prices they charge for little things, i couldn't believe it!

Few teeth, leg and kidney and you're bankrupt...

BTW- look at US economy, dollar is ALL time low, Deficit is record, debt is record... Euro is holding, unemployment is falling in EU. Wouldn't say US economy is doing great... if you keep piling that debt and deficit, it will be bad for you, and in THE end- for all of us.

I don't think you understand much of anything about america.

You get health insurance, it pays for all of your medical expenses. So stop this "you go bankrupt!" nonsense. Also do you even know what bankruptcy is?
 

fiksi

Member
May 2, 2007
63
0
0
Originally posted by: Phokus
One thing that Europe does better than the US is education... Europeans actually have choice on where they send their kids, whether it's a private or public school and it creates incentives to actually do a good job teaching students! The Teachers Union in America has monopolized the American education system and has crippled us in that regard.

Edit: on an unrelated note, i think there's one or two european countries that have a higher per capita GDP than the USA (Luxumberg maybe? I forgot).


Really?->Iceland, Denmark, Switzerland, Norway, Ireland, Luxembourg and Monaco have higher gdp per capita than US.

So, more than two countries...
 

fiksi

Member
May 2, 2007
63
0
0
Really?

Why is this then...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0202-08.htm

WASHINGTON - Half of all U.S. bankruptcies are caused by soaring medical bills and most people sent into debt by illness are middle-class workers with health insurance, researchers said on Wednesday.

The study, published in the journal Health Affairs, estimated that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans every year, if both debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children, are counted.

"Our study is frightening. Unless you're Bill Gates you're just one serious illness away from bankruptcy," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School who led the study.

"Most of the medically bankrupt were average Americans who happened to get sick. Health insurance offered little protection."


That's what your OWN ppl said...
@spidey7, this insurance doesn't seem to "pay" for everything...
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: KMFJD
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: KMFJD
Not to derail the flamewars going on, but can someone explain to me why in the US/Canada they do not put the full price of a product on the sales sticker...at least Europe does that right.

You mean after sales tax or something else?

Yeah, why do they not include sales tax in the price?

If you think you are getting shafted now by taxes let the government gain the ability to hide the sales tax in the cost of the good and they'll end up with 75% of the price of the good as tax. It's bad enough that they do that with gasoline.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,357
8,446
126
Originally posted by: fiksi


Are you saying trade deficit is good? Of course, as dollar falls, your exports will be more competitive...

But the problem with deficit is this- IT means you TAKE IN much, and EXPORT little.


I don't see doom or anything, but AFAIK, your OWN economists are worried about debt/deficit.

we exported 1.5 trillion dollars in goods and sevices last year.

and, again, if the economy is doing well with that deficit, then it's going to be doing even better when that deficit starts to reduce.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,357
8,446
126
Originally posted by: fiksi
Really?

Why is this then...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0202-08.htm

WASHINGTON - Half of all U.S. bankruptcies are caused by soaring medical bills and most people sent into debt by illness are middle-class workers with health insurance, researchers said on Wednesday.

The study, published in the journal Health Affairs, estimated that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans every year, if both debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children, are counted.

"Our study is frightening. Unless you're Bill Gates you're just one serious illness away from bankruptcy," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School who led the study.

"Most of the medically bankrupt were average Americans who happened to get sick. Health insurance offered little protection."


That's what your OWN ppl said...
@spidey7, this insurance doesn't seem to "pay" for everything...
you talk about bankruptcy like it's a bad thing...
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: fiksi
Really?

Why is this then...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0202-08.htm

WASHINGTON - Half of all U.S. bankruptcies are caused by soaring medical bills and most people sent into debt by illness are middle-class workers with health insurance, researchers said on Wednesday.

The study, published in the journal Health Affairs, estimated that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans every year, if both debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children, are counted.

"Our study is frightening. Unless you're Bill Gates you're just one serious illness away from bankruptcy," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School who led the study.

"Most of the medically bankrupt were average Americans who happened to get sick. Health insurance offered little protection."


That's what your OWN ppl said...
@spidey7, this insurance doesn't seem to "pay" for everything...

Stop googling for your proof. that's a completely bogus communist agenda site.

If people go bankrupt it's their OWN fault for being underinsured. That's the beauty of a free country. We can choose our destiny.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,357
8,446
126
Originally posted by: spidey07

Stop googling for your proof. that's a completely bogus communist agenda site.

If people go bankrupt it's their OWN fault for being underinsured. That's the beauty of a free country. We can choose our destiny.

the actual article

one of the authors, elizabeth warren, is probably the foremost expert on bankruptcy in the country. she literally wrote the textbook on it.
 

fiksi

Member
May 2, 2007
63
0
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: fiksi
Really?

Why is this then...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0202-08.htm

WASHINGTON - Half of all U.S. bankruptcies are caused by soaring medical bills and most people sent into debt by illness are middle-class workers with health insurance, researchers said on Wednesday.

The study, published in the journal Health Affairs, estimated that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans every year, if both debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children, are counted.

"Our study is frightening. Unless you're Bill Gates you're just one serious illness away from bankruptcy," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School who led the study.

"Most of the medically bankrupt were average Americans who happened to get sick. Health insurance offered little protection."


That's what your OWN ppl said...
@spidey7, this insurance doesn't seem to "pay" for everything...

Stop googling for your proof. that's a completely bogus communist agenda site.

If people go bankrupt it's their OWN fault for being underinsured. That's the beauty of a free country. We can choose our destiny.


So, ppl at Harvard are communists? :)
I'm really not trying to fight anyone here, America is a great country with
many opportunities, but some things should be fixed...


Can you really choose your destiny? I am ALL for free market, but i think human health, wellbeing isn't a commodity for trade.
 

fiksi

Member
May 2, 2007
63
0
0
If UNIVERSAL health care is THAT bad, why are your own ppl more and more for it?

Medical care is not like other commodities on the market, i don't think same laws should apply to it...

 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: fiksi
Really?

Why is this then...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0202-08.htm

WASHINGTON - Half of all U.S. bankruptcies are caused by soaring medical bills and most people sent into debt by illness are middle-class workers with health insurance, researchers said on Wednesday.

The study, published in the journal Health Affairs, estimated that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans every year, if both debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children, are counted.

"Our study is frightening. Unless you're Bill Gates you're just one serious illness away from bankruptcy," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School who led the study.

"Most of the medically bankrupt were average Americans who happened to get sick. Health insurance offered little protection."


That's what your OWN ppl said...
@spidey7, this insurance doesn't seem to "pay" for everything...

Stop googling for your proof. that's a completely bogus communist agenda site.

If people go bankrupt it's their OWN fault for being underinsured. That's the beauty of a free country. We can choose our destiny.

the destiny to go broke because of medical bills???
 

davestar

Golden Member
Oct 21, 2001
1,787
0
0
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: fiksi
Really?

Why is this then...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0202-08.htm

WASHINGTON - Half of all U.S. bankruptcies are caused by soaring medical bills and most people sent into debt by illness are middle-class workers with health insurance, researchers said on Wednesday.

The study, published in the journal Health Affairs, estimated that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans every year, if both debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children, are counted.

"Our study is frightening. Unless you're Bill Gates you're just one serious illness away from bankruptcy," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School who led the study.

"Most of the medically bankrupt were average Americans who happened to get sick. Health insurance offered little protection."


That's what your OWN ppl said...
@spidey7, this insurance doesn't seem to "pay" for everything...

Stop googling for your proof. that's a completely bogus communist agenda site.

If people go bankrupt it's their OWN fault for being underinsured. That's the beauty of a free country. We can choose our destiny.

the destiny to go broke because of medical bills???

no use in arguing.

according to spidey, researching your position by using google is faux pas and legitimate studies that are reprinted on sites he disagrees with have "bogus communist agendas"
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,125
30,076
146
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: davestar
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: NeoV
I love how so few Americans are willing to concede that anything outside of our country is better.

I don't agree with many of the points the op made, but -

health care benefits
maternity leave
gun control

Are three HUGE areas that most of Europe has a giant advantage over the United States in.

You are seriously saying gun control is a positive?

if gun control leads to lower murder rates, than yes - it's positive.

So we should take away rights guaranteed to every US citizen? What right is taken away next when you have no means of defending yourself? Free speech? Religion? Right to vote?


so you're OK with the privacy rights that have already been taken from you over the last 5 years? Are you prepared to use your guns to take those rights back? If not, then you have have no idea why you have the right to those guns.

Thats a tad extreme. There is middle ground between acceptance and wanting to shoot someone over it. I still believe we have the right to vote and use our voice in opposition first. Guns should be the last resort but won't be if they are taken first.


Do you consider the right to be armed far more American than the right to your own privacy?

btw, I am not anti-gun. However, I find most pro-gun folks claim that gun-control strips them of the right to their own lives, their own property, i.e. privacy. Why is gun-control more of an infringement on privacy than is allowing un-warrented wire-tapping, suspending habeas corpus, etc...?

My example is extreme, but imo it is government out of control. when exactly do you decide that enough is enough? are some rights greater than others?
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
101
106
Dont you just love Europeans coming to an American internet forum, on an internet network invented by Americans, telling us that we do it all wrong?
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Dont you just love Europeans coming to an American internet forum, on an internet network invented by Americans, telling us that we do it all wrong?

the most popular part of the internet (www) was invented by a Brit and a Belgian dude working at the CERN in 1989 :p

so this forum is actual an European invention ;)

linky