work/life balance and security in Europe and US

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Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Always good to have a reminder about how out of touch with reality our fellow Europeans are. Sometimes I forget. Or perhaps the ones I do associate with have a bit of a head on their shoulders so maybe I'm just associating with the "cream of the crop" so to speak.

Clearly our OP is not "cream of the crop".
 

slsmnaz

Diamond Member
Mar 13, 2005
4,016
0
0
Originally posted by: NeoV
I love how so few Americans are willing to concede that anything outside of our country is better.

I don't agree with many of the points the op made, but -

health care benefits
maternity leave
gun control

Are three HUGE areas that most of Europe has a giant advantage over the United States in.

You are seriously saying gun control is a positive?
 

davestar

Golden Member
Oct 21, 2001
1,787
0
0
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: NeoV
I love how so few Americans are willing to concede that anything outside of our country is better.

I don't agree with many of the points the op made, but -

health care benefits
maternity leave
gun control

Are three HUGE areas that most of Europe has a giant advantage over the United States in.

You are seriously saying gun control is a positive?

if gun control leads to lower murder rates, than yes - it's positive.
 

fiksi

Member
May 2, 2007
63
0
0
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: fiksi
http://time-blog.com/curious_capitalist/2007/06/americas_poor_overtaxed_corpor.html

read this... "communist" Europe lower on taxes? It can't be... Also, count in all federal and state taxes for wages, you'll see it's not that little...

@MagicConch-> Spain is a poor country, kind of... wages are like half of wages in most developed western countries.

Unemployment rates? Here you go...

I'll give you standardised employment rates by OECD- you'll see US isn't so "shiny".

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/15/24/38335554.pdf

I asked for unemployment rate, not employment rate. You can't calculate one off of the other.


I gave it ALREADY...

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa....7/3-03072007-EN-AP.PDF

read and comment :)

BTW, Norway is too cold for me :) otherwise... hmm ;)

I was referring to west countries, not eastern... when i was talking about things.

I was born in one former communist country...
 

slsmnaz

Diamond Member
Mar 13, 2005
4,016
0
0
Originally posted by: davestar
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: NeoV
I love how so few Americans are willing to concede that anything outside of our country is better.

I don't agree with many of the points the op made, but -

health care benefits
maternity leave
gun control

Are three HUGE areas that most of Europe has a giant advantage over the United States in.

You are seriously saying gun control is a positive?

if gun control leads to lower murder rates, than yes - it's positive.

So we should take away rights guaranteed to every US citizen? What right is taken away next when you have no means of defending yourself? Free speech? Religion? Right to vote?
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: davestar
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: NeoV
I love how so few Americans are willing to concede that anything outside of our country is better.

I don't agree with many of the points the op made, but -

health care benefits
maternity leave
gun control

Are three HUGE areas that most of Europe has a giant advantage over the United States in.

You are seriously saying gun control is a positive?

if gun control leads to lower murder rates, than yes - it's positive.

I suppose thats why many European countries are moving to ban knives then right?
Since they banned all the guns they have no crime......

Come on man use your head. Objects are just that. Fight the crime, not the tools.
 

davestar

Golden Member
Oct 21, 2001
1,787
0
0
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: davestar
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: NeoV
I love how so few Americans are willing to concede that anything outside of our country is better.

I don't agree with many of the points the op made, but -

health care benefits
maternity leave
gun control

Are three HUGE areas that most of Europe has a giant advantage over the United States in.

You are seriously saying gun control is a positive?

if gun control leads to lower murder rates, than yes - it's positive.

So we should take away rights guaranteed to every US citizen? What right is taken away next when you have no means of defending yourself? Free speech? Religion? Right to vote?


yes, we should obviously take away every right guaranteed by the bill of rights.

the slippery slope argument applies to everything. it's infallible and wins every debate.




...either that, or the intent of the second amendment has long been misconstrued
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,125
30,076
146
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: fiksi

@JeffreyLebowski

i was talking about streets, not manufacturers...! RECENT shooting in us, every now and then, there are shootings... NO such thing here.

Yes, i think your universities are TOP-for those who can AFFORD them.

http://www.paycheckcity.com/ne...c/netpaycalculator.asp

Put in California, and put in 100 000$. And think again, you get almost NO benefits
for that taxes...

And yes- what if your GF gets pregnant? What are the benefits?

Well as far as "street" shootings go. a criminal is a criminal. If they didn't have guns, they would have knives. I'm sure there are lots of stabbings in Europe, probably more than in the US. BAN KNIVES in Europe now.

And we have guns because I forefather understood that in order for a government, ANY government to keep itself in check was to keep the citizens armed so if the Gov did go out of bounds the citizens had the ability to confront it.

point one: always a logical point, but where it succeeds in ignoring the reality of gun deaths is that guns have a greater ability to inflictdamage on ansillary targets (the classic 2-yr old standing on her porch, 50 feet away from the shooting) doesn't happen with knives.

point two: agreed. time to put our remaining rights into action before even more are stripped, no? :)
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
30,031
45,261
136
Not to derail the flamewars going on, but can someone explain to me why in the US/Canada they do not put the full price of a product on the sales sticker...at least Europe does that right.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,125
30,076
146
Originally posted by: UTmtnbiker
Just out of curiosity, how many people actually get to negotiate with their employer on their healthcare? I work for a large Fortune 250 company ($15billion in revenue and 65,000 employees). We get what I consider pretty good healthcare for an average American and we get a CHOICE of health plans to choose from, but in reality, they're all the same flavor with small variations (PPO, HMO, Health Savings Plan, etc). You're pretty much stuck with whatever the company can negotiate with the healthcare providers.

In addition, over the last 10 years, I've seen my co-pay's and deductibles go up, while also paying more and more out of my paycheck for it.

Keep in mind, this is for a GOOD company with GOOD plans. I can't even imagine what it's like for a person working in a small company that doesn't have the leverage with the healthcare providers.

I'm not a Michael Moore fan by any means and haven't seen the movie Sicko, but I do think that he may be on to something here. Healthcare is just getting more and more unaffordable for the average American, even those with decent jobs and employer sponsored care.

Originally posted by: Linflas
Thanks but I'll pass on the loving embrace of mommy government and enjoy the freedom to negotiate those benefits with my employer on my own.


yeppers. our "choices" in terms of healthcare is a complete joke. I've worked in Academia my entire (short) work life. The health options are the best I've seen anywhere else, with "choices" and for a single young fella such as myself, extremely cheap comparatively. ("full" coverage costs me ~ $40/month) I have friends who worked for companies with employee-provided systems. they were paying $120+/month (single coverage). Is this really employee-provided?

Even in my "full coverage," while working for University of Chicago, the status of an emergency procedure (for out-of-HMO service) was redifined to mean "significant organ damage ro internal bleeding." No longer would my broken leg while skiing in Colorado be covered.

also, Gov't provided /= gov't controlled. I love the spin people like to use on that.

I'm not the typicle Moore fan either, and I read a pretty nice anti-"Sicko" review (in The New Yorker) no less), that called him out on his typical stunts (rightly so). However, the review focused on the last 5 minutes of the film, and ignored the actual points he makes. It really is eye-opening.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Originally posted by: fiksi
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: fiksi
http://time-blog.com/curious_capitalist/2007/06/americas_poor_overtaxed_corpor.html

read this... "communist" Europe lower on taxes? It can't be... Also, count in all federal and state taxes for wages, you'll see it's not that little...

@MagicConch-> Spain is a poor country, kind of... wages are like half of wages in most developed western countries.

Unemployment rates? Here you go...

I'll give you standardised employment rates by OECD- you'll see US isn't so "shiny".

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/15/24/38335554.pdf

I asked for unemployment rate, not employment rate. You can't calculate one off of the other.


I gave it ALREADY...

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa....7/3-03072007-EN-AP.PDF

read and comment :)

BTW, Norway is too cold for me :) otherwise... hmm ;)

I was referring to west countries, not eastern... when i was talking about things.

I was born in one former communist country...

I think that explains a lot of your thinking.

Comment for the link: US is quit better than the majority of European countries. Hats off to Netherlands and Denmark, though. And I knew Ireland's economy was chugging along well, but the US would get hammered and the world would be in crisis if it had the unemployment rates of some of those countries.
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
11
76
Originally posted by: KMFJD
Not to derail the flamewars going on, but can someone explain to me why in the US/Canada they do not put the full price of a product on the sales sticker...at least Europe does that right.

You mean after sales tax or something else?
 

fiksi

Member
May 2, 2007
63
0
0
Reading what you say here, i think police should deal with criminals, and make some place safe, so that i don't have to leave in fear and sleep with gun under my pillow!

If police deals with criminals, why would i need a gun? Of course, that's not always as easy as that...

Switzerland is full of guns, in some way, and still shootings don't happen every other day. In Switzerland, people serve military, and many have rifles at home... but they don't wander around universities, churches, or shoot someone from the car!

THERE is a problem in society... that's also the place where things are hardest to rectify.


 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,125
30,076
146
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: davestar
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: NeoV
I love how so few Americans are willing to concede that anything outside of our country is better.

I don't agree with many of the points the op made, but -

health care benefits
maternity leave
gun control

Are three HUGE areas that most of Europe has a giant advantage over the United States in.

You are seriously saying gun control is a positive?

if gun control leads to lower murder rates, than yes - it's positive.

So we should take away rights guaranteed to every US citizen? What right is taken away next when you have no means of defending yourself? Free speech? Religion? Right to vote?


so you're OK with the privacy rights that have already been taken from you over the last 5 years? Are you prepared to use your guns to take those rights back? If not, then you have have no idea why you have the right to those guns.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
30,031
45,261
136
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: KMFJD
Not to derail the flamewars going on, but can someone explain to me why in the US/Canada they do not put the full price of a product on the sales sticker...at least Europe does that right.

You mean after sales tax or something else?

Yeah, why do they not include sales tax in the price?
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: fiksi
Reading what you say here, i think police should deal with criminals, and make some place safe, so that i don't have to leave in fear and sleep with gun under my pillow!

If police deals with criminals, why would i need a gun? Of course, that's not always as easy as that...

Switzerland is full of guns, in some way, and still shootings don't happen every other day. In Switzerland, people serve military, and many have rifles at home... but they don't wander around universities, churches, or shoot someone from the car!

THERE is a problem in society... that's also the place where things are hardest to rectify.
Switzerland also has a highly structured society with relatively low immigration. Open the gates up a little so the populace isn't quite so homogenous and you'll see the same thing occur. I do however feel that America is something of a standout in terms of glorifying guns and violence.
 

fiksi

Member
May 2, 2007
63
0
0
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: fiksi
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: fiksi
http://time-blog.com/curious_capitalist/2007/06/americas_poor_overtaxed_corpor.html

read this... "communist" Europe lower on taxes? It can't be... Also, count in all federal and state taxes for wages, you'll see it's not that little...

@MagicConch-> Spain is a poor country, kind of... wages are like half of wages in most developed western countries.

Unemployment rates? Here you go...

I'll give you standardised employment rates by OECD- you'll see US isn't so "shiny".

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/15/24/38335554.pdf

I asked for unemployment rate, not employment rate. You can't calculate one off of the other.


I gave it ALREADY...

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa....7/3-03072007-EN-AP.PDF

read and comment :)

BTW, Norway is too cold for me :) otherwise... hmm ;)

I was referring to west countries, not eastern... when i was talking about things.

I was born in one former communist country...

I think that explains a lot of your thinking.

Comment for the link: US is quit better than the majority of European countries. Hats off to Netherlands and Denmark, though. And I knew Ireland's economy was chugging along well, but the US would get hammered and the world would be in crisis if it had the unemployment rates of some of those countries.


Really? I'm not communist or anything, i'm GLAD it's over...
Why would health benefits, caring for sick etc be communist? I still work... we work in Europe, ppl, we work!


Unemployment in EU is falling quickly, as economies are gaining momentum...
US is not economically that far ahead of Europe anymore. Look at the list of richest countries per capita, richer are some EU countries than US.

Also, US has MOUNTANEOS debt! Your debt is going through the roof!

Deficit? What's US trade deficit?


DID YOU know Germany EXPORTS more goods than ALL OF USA?? Us is importing goods, creating debt... on your backs. US deficit is RECORD high! Find me developed EU countries, with this high deficit...


 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,357
8,446
126
Originally posted by: KMFJD
Not to derail the flamewars going on, but can someone explain to me why in the US/Canada they do not put the full price of a product on the sales sticker...at least Europe does that right.

you call europe hiding the government's share 'right'?


and, at least here in texas, there is no law that says that you can't put the post-tax price on the tag. i suspect that if a store advertised post tax prices they wouldn't get as many customers are a store that advertised pre-tax prices.
 

slsmnaz

Diamond Member
Mar 13, 2005
4,016
0
0
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: davestar
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: NeoV
I love how so few Americans are willing to concede that anything outside of our country is better.

I don't agree with many of the points the op made, but -

health care benefits
maternity leave
gun control

Are three HUGE areas that most of Europe has a giant advantage over the United States in.

You are seriously saying gun control is a positive?

if gun control leads to lower murder rates, than yes - it's positive.

So we should take away rights guaranteed to every US citizen? What right is taken away next when you have no means of defending yourself? Free speech? Religion? Right to vote?


so you're OK with the privacy rights that have already been taken from you over the last 5 years? Are you prepared to use your guns to take those rights back? If not, then you have have no idea why you have the right to those guns.

Thats a tad extreme. There is middle ground between acceptance and wanting to shoot someone over it. I still believe we have the right to vote and use our voice in opposition first. Guns should be the last resort but won't be if they are taken first.
 

zoiks

Lifer
Jan 13, 2000
11,787
3
81
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
fiksi, you are an idiot. It's sad that you can't see past your own ignorance.

Thats very easy to say though I would think you'd have a little more constructive thoughts to offer. I think the OP has some valid points. Our Medical system is far from perfect among other things. Though Europe in general really isn't perfect either. Here in the US we have tougher trade laws that makes consumer lives a lot easier by forcing competition. We have tougher laws in companies and firms on how they handle the employees. Our political government structure is very good.
There are tradeoffs and while I've visited Europe and Asia all over, there's no where I'd rather be but here in the US.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
30,031
45,261
136
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: KMFJD
Not to derail the flamewars going on, but can someone explain to me why in the US/Canada they do not put the full price of a product on the sales sticker...at least Europe does that right.

you call europe hiding the government's share 'right'?


and, at least here in texas, there is no law that says that you can't put the post-tax price on the tag. i suspect that if a store advertised post tax prices they wouldn't get as many customers are a store that advertised pre-tax prices.

Well in one way i do, i see a price tag, it says 10$, i pay 10$, not 10$ plus tax, it just makes more sense to me.


 

zoiks

Lifer
Jan 13, 2000
11,787
3
81
Originally posted by: UTmtnbiker
Just out of curiosity, how many people actually get to negotiate with their employer on their healthcare? I work for a large Fortune 250 company ($15billion in revenue and 65,000 employees). We get what I consider pretty good healthcare for an average American and we get a CHOICE of health plans to choose from, but in reality, they're all the same flavor with small variations (PPO, HMO, Health Savings Plan, etc). You're pretty much stuck with whatever the company can negotiate with the healthcare providers.

In addition, over the last 10 years, I've seen my co-pay's and deductibles go up, while also paying more and more out of my paycheck for it.

Keep in mind, this is for a GOOD company with GOOD plans. I can't even imagine what it's like for a person working in a small company that doesn't have the leverage with the healthcare providers.

I'm not a Michael Moore fan by any means and haven't seen the movie Sicko, but I do think that he may be on to something here. Healthcare is just getting more and more unaffordable for the average American, even those with decent jobs and employer sponsored care.

Originally posted by: Linflas
Thanks but I'll pass on the loving embrace of mommy government and enjoy the freedom to negotiate those benefits with my employer on my own.


I think it also depends on how your employer negotiates with the Insurance company. For example, at my present company when I joined, I had a 250 dollar yearly deductable and a 15 copayment with ever medical visit. My company renegotiated their contract with Blue Cross and now there is no deductable and its $10 copay. My benefits stay the same.
 

TXHokie

Platinum Member
Nov 16, 1999
2,557
173
106
Say what you will, the USA is still the best. You reap what you sow here. Work hard, make smart choices and you will succeed and live a good life. Don't like your job? Pay to low or not enough vacation? Get another job. Get an education and better yourself regardless of your age. You just need to provide the will to better yourself. The government does not owe you anything. They're there to protect your rights and provide security. It's not perfect but if you don't like what they're doing...vote their butt out - you have that right. I've lived in a communist country and became a naturalized US citizen, people don't really know what freedom means until it's taken from them. And freedom is not free, there's people giving up their life everyday to keep it going - but the US gives you the freedom to chose. Chose wisely and work hard, and you'll find there's no better place than the great US of A!!!! Peace.
 

fiksi

Member
May 2, 2007
63
0
0
Originally posted by: zoiks
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
fiksi, you are an idiot. It's sad that you can't see past your own ignorance.

Thats very easy to say though I would think you'd have a little more constructive thoughts to offer. I think the OP has some valid points. Our Medical system is far from perfect among other things. Though Europe in general really isn't perfect either. Here in the US we have tougher trade laws that makes consumer lives a lot easier by forcing competition. We have tougher laws in companies and firms on how they handle the employees. Our political government structure is very good.
There are tradeoffs and while I've visited Europe and Asia all over, there's no where I'd rather be but here in the US.


Well, it's not like i haven't been in US... i just wondered why my US colleague was afraid if he got bad teeth- when i heard prices they charge for little things, i couldn't believe it!

Few teeth, leg and kidney and you're bankrupt...

BTW- look at US economy, dollar is ALL time low, Deficit is record, debt is record... Euro is holding, unemployment is falling in EU. Wouldn't say US economy is doing great... if you keep piling that debt and deficit, it will be bad for you, and in THE end- for all of us.