When do you stop fascism from happening?

[realibrad]

I disagree. I think the rate of change is what's important. Just look at how much we put up in terms of voter suppression, police misconduct, increasing government surveillance and secret courts in that regard, and open discrimination of minorities and other elements of society. These are things that grew into accepted normalcy slowly, even though the ideas behind them are in my opinion insane. Currently if a police officer abuses a guy, in general as long as the guy doesn't get killed, we are ok with it as a society. That's how far we've come. We get a little irate if someone dies, but are not really angry if its just a savage beating (whilst in the 1990s there was mass rioting in the streets over savage beatings caught on tape). If you really think about it, people should be absolutely outraged by some of the things Trump and his cabinet have said and done of recent and the outrage is minimal because of acquired tolerance. I almost wonder if that's the game Trump is playing. Increasingly raise the tolerance level and push the bar as a means to buy more room for misconduct.

Fascism overnight? No. But slow changes with more consolidation of power in the hands of fewer and fewer people? Well that is already sort of happening already right? Just look at our wealth gap and what it has done to our politics with essentially a minority party having the majority control nationwide on multiple levels of government?

All of what you just argued has been historically getting better every generation.

 

[ivwshane]

Read On Tyranny by Timothy Snyder. Quick read (an hour or less), honest and straight forward.

/end of thread

Thanks but please add your thoughts, point out which points he made that you think are most relevant right now. Because, while his book may be short people still may not have the time and I think we are in a time crunch here.

 

[realibrad]

I believe the point at which fascism is when it becomes popular. The reason the Nazi party took over, is because people wanted anything and anyone to stop their suffering. People are more than willing to suppress things they don't like, so when they have the power to do so things go horribly. Many on the Left mock those who are deeply concerned about liberty and freedom. Sadly those have become terms thrown around by the Right (ironic right?) and as such the Left often dismisses those as opposition when they are argued for.

Take Evergreen college as to how fascism starts. Many on the Left felt that Trump was the start of fascism and so they "fought" back. Sadly, the methods and desires are fascist. They want to stop those that they feel are fascist with tactics of physical violence, silencing their speech, and keeping them away from places they feel they should not be. This is because they feel they are right, and if they could just force the world to be in their image, everything would be better for everyone but bad people.

The time to stop fascism to me should always be now. Arguing for freedom and liberty and the merits is the way to stop fascism. There will always be those who are willing to take those away to improve things in the short run, and we should all fight against our fear to gain progress.

 

[zinfamous]

Oh, so that was the full context of that line.
It's one hell of a prophecy today.

Um, I realize this is an old comment, but did you honestly never know the full context of Obama's line in that speech? FFS: this is why this country is so fucking dumb. cherry-picking talking points and using it to destroy people, out of context. And it's not that you did it, but you support the practice by not engaging yourself in the full context when someone wants to point out "this horrible thing that Obama said!"

But yes: Obama was 100% correct then and 100% correct now. It wasn't an insult, it was empathy. If people identify with that demographic and feel insulted, it's because the GOP has been blowing smoke up their asses for decades, telling them that their plight is due to "the elites ruining their lives; trust us to save you!"

 

[theeedude]

A well regulated militia.

 

[realibrad]

A well regulated militia.

Good chance that the militia may want power after destroying the fascist. Further, what happens if the militia agree with the fascists? Now you have fascist that have reinforcements of force.

 

[theeedude]

Good chance that the militia may want power after destroying the fascist. Further, what happens if the militia agree with the fascists? Now you have fascist that have reinforcements of force.

You deal with one problem at a time. And yes, some states would have fascist militias and some will have anti-fascist ones. That's life. You can't save everyone from fascism.

 

[realibrad]

You deal with one problem at a time. And yes, some states would have fascist militias and some will have anti-fascist ones. That's life. You can't save everyone from fascism.

Which is why its far more efficient to maintain liberty through discourse and sustainable arguments. Force is a last resort that is a gamble. So to say a militia is the way to do it would seem to be incorrect no?

 

[agent00f]

I believe the point at which fascism is when it becomes popular. The reason the Nazi party took over, is because people wanted anything and anyone to stop their suffering. People are more than willing to suppress things they don't like, so when they have the power to do so things go horribly. Many on the Left mock those who are deeply concerned about liberty and freedom. Sadly those have become terms thrown around by the Right (ironic right?) and as such the Left often dismisses those as opposition when they are argued for.

Take Evergreen college as to how fascism starts. Many on the Left felt that Trump was the start of fascism and so they "fought" back. Sadly, the methods and desires are fascist. They want to stop those that they feel are fascist with tactics of physical violence, silencing their speech, and keeping them away from places they feel they should not be. This is because they feel they are right, and if they could just force the world to be in their image, everything would be better for everyone but bad people.

The time to stop fascism to me should always be now. Arguing for freedom and liberty and the merits is the way to stop fascism. There will always be those who are willing to take those away to improve things in the short run, and we should all fight against our fear to gain progress.

"Denazification is the Real fascism." --nazi types & friends

 

[theeedude]

Which is why its far more efficient to maintain liberty through discourse and sustainable arguments. Force is a last resort that is a gamble. So to say a militia is the way to do it would seem to be incorrect no?

Show me a fascist movement destroyed by discourse?

 

[shortylickens]

I'd have to fight off 62 million angry morons, so I guess its gonna continue fora little while.

 

[realibrad]

Show me a fascist movement destroyed by discourse?

The USA is not an example?

 

[realibrad]

"Denazification is the Real fascism." --nazi types & friends

I can be depending on the methods employed. Fighting fascist with fascism would not seem to be a productive method.

 

[theeedude]

The USA is not an example?

It's TBD.

 

[agent00f]

I can be depending on the methods employed. Fighting fascist with fascism would not seem to be a productive method.

The USA is not an example?

Denazification worked a lot better than segregation, though many of your friends disagree.

 

[realibrad]

It's TBD.

Realize what you are asking though. If fascism comes about because of populism (my claim) then arguing against that would stop it before it becomes a popular movement. You would not really see when discourse prevents fascism.

Guns kill people, not ideas. Many do not seem to realize this.

 

[realibrad]

Denazification worked a lot better than segregation, though many of your friends disagree.

Not sure what your point is?

I said arguing against fascism is the best way to deal with fascism. Perhaps you got lost along the way?

 

[agent00f]

Not sure what your point is?

I said arguing against fascism is the best way to deal with fascism. Perhaps you got lost along the way?

I think it's pretty easy to understand why fascist consider any action against them as the Real fascism, even for the likes of you.

 

[realibrad]

I think it's pretty easy to understand why fascist consider any action against them as the Real fascism, even for the likes of you.

Still not sure about your point. The examples I listed as not being productive were as follows...

"They want to stop those that they feel are fascist with tactics of physical violence, silencing their speech, and keeping them away from places they feel they should not be"

Are you saying those should be acceptable methods with dealing with Fascism?

 

[agent00f]

Still not sure about your point. The examples I listed as not being productive were as follows...

"They want to stop those that they feel are fascist with tactics of physical violence, silencing their speech, and keeping them away from places they feel they should not be"

Are you saying those should be acceptable methods with dealing with Fascism?

Pretty obvious you're aware by now how well each solution worked against nazis vs confederates, and which you & friends prefer.

 

[theeedude]

Realize what you are asking though. If fascism comes about because of populism (my claim) then arguing against that would stop it before it becomes a popular movement. You would not really see when discourse prevents fascism.
Guns kill people, not ideas. Many do not seem to realize this.

I am not a fan of guns, and don't own one myself, but the US Constitution prescribes a method for preserving the security of a free state, and I am sorry to say, it's not discourse. Fascism implies government control of the media and communications, so there won't be a forum for this discourse you are imagining. Graveyards of Europe, South America, etc, are filled with executed intellectuals who thought they could use discourse to win against Fascism and other types of totalitarianism.

 

[agent00f]

I am not a fan of guns, and don't own one myself, but the US Constitution prescribes a method for preserving the security of a free state, and I am sorry to say, it's not discourse. Fascism implies government control of the media and communications, so there won't be a forum for this discourse you are imagining. Graveyards of Europe, South America, etc, are filled with executed intellectuals who thought they could use discourse to win against Fascism and other types of totalitarianism.

How can that be when fascists & friends tell us reasoned discourse is the way to reach them.

 

[Moonbeam]

Still not sure about your point. The examples I listed as not being productive were as follows...

"They want to stop those that they feel are fascist with tactics of physical violence, silencing their speech, and keeping them away from places they feel they should not be"

Are you saying those should be acceptable methods with dealing with Fascism?

Let me save you some time with agent. He is a known idiot. He works to promote violence to destroy our liberal system all while hiding behind the smug self confidence of a con man.

Have wondered where you've been. Nice to see you post.

 

[realibrad]

Pretty obvious you're aware by now how well each solution worked against nazis vs confederates, and which you & friends prefer.

Already responded...

"Force is a last resort that is a gamble."
"Guns kill people, not ideas."

And, while I support both uses of force to stop the institutions in both of your listed examples, its also true that force has not always worked and or made things worse.

I can easily counter with...
Spanish Civil war.

About the only good thing to come from that is Orwell's writing.

 

[realibrad]

Let me save you some time with agent. He is a known idiot. He works to promote violence to destroy our liberal system all while hiding behind the smug self confidence of a con man.

Have wondered where you've been. Nice to see you post.

Oh I remember. I may have a low relative working memory Index score, but even I remember Agent.