When do you stop fascism from happening?

[Jaskalas]

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them,

. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not,

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Barack Obama April 2008

Oh, so that was the full context of that line.
It's one hell of a prophecy today.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Q: When do you stop fascism?

A: As quickly as possible.

 

[ivwshane]

Q: When do you stop fascism?

A: As quickly as possible.

That's not an answer. You first must be able to recognize fascism as it begins to take place. The question is what are the red flags we should be looking for?

 

[Jaskalas]

That's not an answer. You first must be able to recognize fascism as it begins to take place. The question is what are the red flags we should be looking for?

Silencing the opposition. Acting against the people's freedom of expression, such as demonstrations.
Not just complaining, but taking action against our Bill of Rights.

 

[ivwshane]

Silencing the opposition. Acting against the people's freedom of expression, such as demonstrations.
Not just complaining, but taking action against our Bill of Rights.

In what ways? Creating protest/safe zones? What sort of actions are we talking about?

 

[Victorian Gray]

That's not an answer. You first must be able to recognize fascism as it begins to take place. The question is what are the red flags we should be looking for?

Given the history of fascism what signs do you need explained? It's not like we don't already know what the template is and how it's used. We've got close to 100 years of experience.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

My suggestion is to read up on Italy's PNF which will provide a contextual historical background. The primary hallmark is an expansionist nationalistic mindset among the majority of citizens. If the US were to engage in expanding into Mexico for example then we would pretty much be there.

 

[ivwshane]

My suggestion is to read up on Italy's PNF which will provide a contextual historical background. The primary hallmark is an expansionist nationalistic mindset among the majority of citizens. If the US were to engage in expanding into Mexico for example then we would pretty much be there.

Wouldn't you say that if a majority of citizens had a nationalistic mindset that we would already be past the point of no return?

 

[ivwshane]

Given the history of fascism what signs do you need explained? It's not like we don't already know what the template is and how it's used. We've got close to 100 years of experience.

I don't have that knowledge so I'm unaware of what I should be looking for. Some people have given examples but most of the examples, when viewed by themselves, haven't led to fascism.

So help me out here, what had history taught us? What are the signs we can look for before its too late?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Wouldn't you say that if a majority of citizens had a nationalistic mindset that we would already be past the point of no return?

That's the end state, yes, but there's things which lead up to it. Historically fascism came about due to the mobilization of civilians to take part in WWI. The result is a blurring of military and civilian boundries which led to a mindset of a military leader taking control. Citizens became "soldiers" to some degree supporting a nationalist cause. That led to war based on a "manifest destiny" principle. Germans were superior, Italians were inheritors of the Roman empire and that sold.

Perhaps the only good thing about American devisive nature is that no one candidate is so popular that they command overwhelming majority approval. Trump for example is pointed out as a possible fascist and perhaps that is in his nature, but while he has a core of die hard supporters which may be susceptable to almost anything, the needed critical mass of support simply isn't there. You don't like him. I don't like him and we bump heads on a regular basis and neither one of us is going with a totalitarian government. Not happening.

I'd say keeping alert to changes is completely reasonable, however we're not the society Hitler built upon, a desperate people literally starving for food and revenge.

We're stupid, but not fascist stupid.

 

[ivwshane]

That's the end state, yes, but there's things which lead up to it. Historically fascism came about due to the mobilization of civilians to take part in WWI. The result is a blurring of military and civilian boundries which led to a mindset of a military leader taking control. Citizens became "soldiers" to some degree supporting a nationalist cause. That led to war based on a "manifest destiny" principle. Germans were superior, Italians were inheritors of the Roman empire and that sold.

Perhaps the only good thing about American devisive nature is that no one candidate is so popular that they command overwhelming majority approval. Trump for example is pointed out as a possible fascist and perhaps that is in his nature, but while he has a core of die hard supporters which may be susceptable to almost anything, the needed critical mass of support simply isn't there. You don't like him. I don't like him and we bump heads on a regular basis and neither one of us is going with a totalitarian government. Not happening.

I'd say keeping alert to changes is completely reasonable, however we're not the society Hitler built upon, a desperate people literally starving for food and revenge.

We're stupid, but not fascist stupid.

So you are saying fascism cannot come about without the will of the people (or at least a large majority)? Are there any cases in history where this isn't true? Does this apply to dictatorships?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

So you are saying fascism cannot come about without the will of the people (or at least a large majority)? Are there any cases in history where this isn't true? Does this apply to dictatorships?

Any kind of state may arise when there is war or the military overthrows a government, but facists states are populist states in the extreme. There has to be support from the people, most of them, and for a society which has a history of democracy, military overthrow is not a serious threat. Heck Trump can't get his SOD to go along with torture.

 

[ivwshane]

Any kind of state may arise when there is war or the military overthrows a government, but facists states are populist states in the extreme. There has to be support from the people, most of them, and for a society which has a history of democracy, military overthrow is not a serious threat. Heck Trump can't get his SOD to go along with torture.

Interesting. I guess the threat of fascism rests fully in the hands of the American people.

I'm not sure if I should take solace in that fact or be even more concerned.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Interesting. I guess the threat of fascism rests fully in the hands of the American people.

I'm not sure if I should take solace in that fact or be even more concerned.

It's not foolish to be watchful but Trump lost the popular vote AND was the most unpopular candidate to have run. Then factor in his further nosedive in approval as Commodus showed.

It doesn't make sense from an objective perspective. I'm more worried about excessive and inappropriate use of Executive actions which take time for courts to undo.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Fascism is an ideology unique to the 20th century with its foundation set in the significant nationalist movements that replaced monarchies as a source of identity, and the blurring of civilian and military leadership given the entangling alliance expectation to mobilize an entire nation for total war at a moment's notice, and also a counter balance to the rise of marxism and communism.

Some of the tools used by fascists to consolidate and sustain their power are still in use today, but they are no more unique than any form of totalitarian government.

In contemporary language, the term fascism is more commonly used to disparage a political opponent, to the extent that its diluted the meaning.

To answer your question, it is impossible to stop fascism once it is in motion. You instead need to prevent the soil conditions that allow fascism to take root. When people feel marginalized or otherwise lose their sense of identity, it is easy to exploit those emotions with an appeal to nationalism, better times, etc. If people are so far down the path that such themes resonate with them, it is already too late.

 

[fleshconsumed]

Okay, I'll take your word for it the OP was in no way inspired by Trump and is entirely a rhetorical question.

That being said, IMHO worrying about "fascism" is completely overblown unless/until truly exceptional circumstances exist such as:

1. The government starts taking actions or policy positions that are way outside any historical norms and precedents absent some truly exceptional circumstances like the immediate aftermath of 9-11. Not just "way to the far end of the liberal/conservative spectrum" but completely off the spectrum chart altogether. Like suggesting that all firearms be confiscated, or that sharia or other religious laws be implemented, or that core civil rights protections were no longer valid for all citizens or entire classes of people.

2. Key government officials rewrite laws to entrench themselves or eliminate restrictions on their powers, such as seeking to get the 22nd Amendment nullified so the POTUS could run for additional terms.

3. The POTUS starts routinely asserting the separation of powers or checks and balances no longer applies or should be weakened systematically and across the board (not minor tweaks like suggesting line-item veto)

4. POTUS uses his inherent powers to attempt to make the executive "above the law," such as applying prospective blanket pardons to his cabinet members and then ordering them to take illegal actions under the logic they can't be prosecuted for them given the pardons in effect.

The problem that I see with this kind of reasoning is that you describe a big jump into fascism overnight which would be very easy to recognize and hopefully to stop.

However, if you look at the history of Germany and Italy, the fascism did not arise overnight, it took decade to put in place. Every year was just a little bit further down the line, but nobody noticed because people have had time to adjust their perception to what is normal. Slowly boiling frog in a boiling pot and all. That's what is much more likely to happen.

While I don't see Trump doing that just yet, I do see a lot of troubling signs. Demonizing the mid level government workers as the problem while putting heads of the private industry (Goldman Sachs) for key government positions. Surrounding himself with "yes" people. Blatantly lying about the pettiest of things and then having gall to label everyone disagreeing with him as liars. Barring multiple federal agencies from communicating with public and instructing to redirect all inquiries to White House. Labeling multiple legitimate news organizations and newspapers as fake news and liars. Tacitly suggesting that maybe people should get their news from Trump administration instead of actual news organizations, going as far as to say "[Trump] will tell Americans when America is great again". And the latest folly of arbitrary Muslim ban. I don't know about you, but all of these look very troubling to me. These are the very foundation stones of fascism.

 

[Victorian Gray]

I don't have that knowledge so I'm unaware of what I should be looking for. Some people have given examples but most of the examples, when viewed by themselves, haven't led to fascism.

So help me out here, what had history taught us? What are the signs we can look for before its too late?

Try this, Eco explains it far better than I could. About half way through he describes 14 main features of fascism:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/

 

[Sunburn74]

We're stupid, but not fascist stupid.

I disagree. I think the rate of change is what's important. Just look at how much we put up in terms of voter suppression, police misconduct, increasing government surveillance and secret courts in that regard, and open discrimination of minorities and other elements of society. These are things that grew into accepted normalcy slowly, even though the ideas behind them are in my opinion insane. Currently if a police officer abuses a guy, in general as long as the guy doesn't get killed, we are ok with it as a society. That's how far we've come. We get a little irate if someone dies, but are not really angry if its just a savage beating (whilst in the 1990s there was mass rioting in the streets over savage beatings caught on tape). If you really think about it, people should be absolutely outraged by some of the things Trump and his cabinet have said and done of recent and the outrage is minimal because of acquired tolerance. I almost wonder if that's the game Trump is playing. Increasingly raise the tolerance level and push the bar as a means to buy more room for misconduct.

Fascism overnight? No. But slow changes with more consolidation of power in the hands of fewer and fewer people? Well that is already sort of happening already right? Just look at our wealth gap and what it has done to our politics with essentially a minority party having the majority control nationwide on multiple levels of government?

 

[ivwshane]

Are we on our way?

http://www.latimes.com/politics/was...nators-trumpets-his-1500937520-htmlstory.html

We could use some more loyalty, I could tell you that," Trump said of Republicans in Congress. Within the first minute he attacked the press -- "fake news" -- twice and came back to the subject of "these dishonest people" later.

He can spew his propaganda to adults but when you start spewing it to kids, I think you are crossing the line.

 

[ivwshane]

If Republicans don't start taking a stand I think we will head downhill fast.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...s-justice-department-not-president/495094001/

"The FBI person really reports directly to the president of the United States, which is interesting," he told the Times.

It's a particularly illuminating line for a president who abruptly fired his FBI director, James Comey — especially since Comey subsequently accused Trump of demanding a pledge of personal loyalty, and pressing him to drop parts of the Russia investigation dogging his term.

The way Trump tells it, the FBI reports to the Justice Department as a courtesy, because of the Nixon administration. That isn't the case.

To explain this further, let's break this down.

The FBI doesn't report directly to the president, at least in the way he's implying.
By law, the president does nominate the FBI director, and that nomination is subject to Senate confirmation.

 

[WHAMPOM]

During Obama's presidency and now with trumps presidency many people said the US was turning into a dictatorship or becoming fascist. For the sake of this thread lets not make this about either president.

Everyone likes to say that if they had a time machine they would go back and kill Hitler when he was a baby. Well we don't have a time machine so what's the next best, reality based, solution?

When do those who oppose either fascism or dictatorships, start fighting back? And by fighting back I'm referring to public displays from citizens of dissent.

If we use historical examples of either, when would have been the appropriate time to start mobilizing an offensive against either from happening? When laws are passed that start discriminating against particular groups of people? When leaders use nationalistic language? When leaders single out groups as the cause for societies ills? When laws are broken by those at the top in government and are not punished? When personnel throughout government are replaced with a leaders "team"? When two of the above happen in a short period of time? When three, four, or more happen in a short period of time?

Was there particular points in history that historians can look back to and say that at that particular point in time, after the leader did these actions it should have been a red flag.

Or is it something that cannot be stopped once the wheels are in motion?

Is it something that can only be stopped after the fact or is that too late?

You want the first sign? When people of power or money become immune to prosecution under the law.

 

[ivwshane]

You want the first sign? When people of power or money become immune to prosecution under the law.

Have we reached that point?

 

[cytg111]

During Obama's presidency and now with trumps presidency many people said the US was turning into a dictatorship or becoming fascist. For the sake of this thread lets not make this about either president.

Everyone likes to say that if they had a time machine they would go back and kill Hitler when he was a baby. Well we don't have a time machine so what's the next best, reality based, solution?

When do those who oppose either fascism or dictatorships, start fighting back? And by fighting back I'm referring to public displays from citizens of dissent.

If we use historical examples of either, when would have been the appropriate time to start mobilizing an offensive against either from happening? When laws are passed that start discriminating against particular groups of people? When leaders use nationalistic language? When leaders single out groups as the cause for societies ills? When laws are broken by those at the top in government and are not punished? When personnel throughout government are replaced with a leaders "team"? When two of the above happen in a short period of time? When three, four, or more happen in a short period of time?

Was there particular points in history that historians can look back to and say that at that particular point in time, after the leader did these actions it should have been a red flag.

Or is it something that cannot be stopped once the wheels are in motion?

Is it something that can only be stopped after the fact or is that too late?

Right now I am thinking Turkey... Erdogan is on a dangerous path... For America you got Mueller and a waking congress, for now I think your checks and balances are working... might be stretching it but thats just good excersise ...When Trump is deported it has passed þe test.
Theoretical, when to act? Thats one hell of a question.... I read some time back that in context of WW2 when the concept of concentration/extermination camps rolled up it was allready too late to stop, the jew and kin prosecution/rallying/hatred had taken on a life of its own that Hitler couldnt have stopped even if he tried... Guess the point is you have to spot the momentum before it happens, that is one hell of a crystal ball task but I will say that Trumps birtherism crap and catering to the hateful did send those cold chills down my spine.

 

[yllus]

I've been thinking about this as well, and I think my resolution is: In the next four years, at some point Trump or his people will use financial or legal pressure to shut down or significantly harm press organizations like CNN or the Washington Post. (My guess is through use of a gooned-up Justice Department.) At that point, freedom loving Americans need to stage weeks (multiple I suspect) of general strikes to shut down the national economy until political action to remove Trump occurs. This is no other option; without a strong response, it will be the beginning of the end of a truly independent press.

The question is if there are enough people secure in their jobs and willing to lose them for their ideals to make this happen. The weakness of unions and job security in general in the United States bodes ill for this.

We're getting closer to Trump and the Republicans using financial pressure against the "Amazon Washington Post". The feelers are going out via Twitter to prep his followers for such an attack.

 

[Thump553]

Read On Tyranny by Timothy Snyder. Quick read (an hour or less), honest and straight forward.

/end of thread