It's not about how much money you have, it's about what you do with it and what is in your heart. Jesus said you can't serve two masters, either money or Jesus, not both. You can have money, but you shouldn't live to accumulate wealth, but rather put your faith in Christ. I know a lot of well off people who donate very large sums of money to missionary organizations (one I used to work at) and they do it with a lot of love in their heart, and no one is telling them they have to. I also know a lot of poorer people who still find a way to give $5 or $10 a month to a missionary, and I think both of those people's hearts are in the right place.
It's not about how much money you have, it's about what you do with it and what is in your heart. Jesus said you can't serve two masters, either money or Jesus, not both. You can have money, but you shouldn't live to accumulate wealth, but rather put your faith in Christ. I know a lot of well off people who donate very large sums of money to missionary organizations (one I used to work at) and they do it with a lot of love in their heart, and no one is telling them they have to. I also know a lot of poorer people who still find a way to give $5 or $10 a month to a missionary, and I think both of those people's hearts are in the right place.
I agree 110% here ! Morals and compassion come from within a person and from their abilty to think about their actions and how they effect others around them.
A.) It's a fact that the kings and queens of Europe viewed their power to rule in their respective countries as coming from God and being certified by the church.
B.) I was not really trying to making a slippery slope arguement. Then again...Why not ? Some people use that slippery slope logic to condem gay marriage.
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Word.
Another thing I find problematic with Bush and those like him is the love your enemy / turn the other cheek thing. I remember when there was that special on how he responded to 9/11, the first thing he said to Cheney is, "someone's gonna' pay for this" or something to that nature. Not only was that immature, it was unchristian.
I don't understand why more protestants, who are supposed to read the actual bible a lot, don't see this. Also, are there any preachers that actually make this argument? It would be nice to hear a religious voice that wasn't in league with warmongers and their ilk.
:|
Whats going to happen when an atheist gets elected? Will the left wing atheists of the country see that presidents compassion, or anything else typically called Christian behavior as being un-atheist? :roll:
What ever made you think that atheist were all left wing ? I know some pretty hardcore right wing voting atheist conservatives who hate the fact that the GOP has been hi-jacked by radical born-again Christians so that they can fund their social Christian agenda through government. I also agree with InforHawk on the whole compassion thing not being a Christian monopoly as well.
P.S. Where is the compassion in telling someone that they are going to hell no matter how good they are just because they don't practice the same religion as you ?
I like this question, and I hear it more than any other one. I'll try to answer it as best as I can. Assume for just a second that you really do believe everything Jesus said, like I do, then you would believe that if you died without believing in him as the one true Son of God, you would go to hell.
Now, with that knowlege, what is more compassionate? Letting someone you care about live the way they want to for 100 or so years and then go to hell for all eternity, or rather, sharing your faith with them and trying very hard to show them the love of Jesus and that what he said was true so that the person would spend eternity in joy, rather than anguish?
If a Christian says to you that "I believe in Jesus, but it's not for everyone, you can have your beliefs about who God is and that's cool too" then I would seriously question that person's faith. Sure, it may conform well to our society's love of universal acceptance and moral relativism, but all that doesn't matter if it isn't the truth. Remember, your faith alone doesn't save you, it's who you put your faith in that does.
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Word.
Another thing I find problematic with Bush and those like him is the love your enemy / turn the other cheek thing. I remember when there was that special on how he responded to 9/11, the first thing he said to Cheney is, "someone's gonna' pay for this" or something to that nature. Not only was that immature, it was unchristian.
I don't understand why more protestants, who are supposed to read the actual bible a lot, don't see this. Also, are there any preachers that actually make this argument? It would be nice to hear a religious voice that wasn't in league with warmongers and their ilk.
:|
Whats going to happen when an atheist gets elected? Will the left wing atheists of the country see that presidents compassion, or anything else typically called Christian behavior as being un-atheist? :roll:
What ever made you think that atheist were all left wing ? I know some pretty hardcore right wing voting atheist conservatives who hate the fact that the GOP has been hi-jacked by radical born-again Christians so that they can fund their social Christian agenda through government. I also agree with InforHawk on the whole compassion thing not being a Christian monopoly as well.
P.S. Where is the compassion in telling someone that they are going to hell no matter how good they are just because they don't practice the same religion as you ?
I like this question, and I hear it more than any other one. I'll try to answer it as best as I can. Assume for just a second that you really do believe everything Jesus said, like I do, then you would believe that if you died without believing in him as the one true Son of God, you would go to hell.
Now, with that knowlege, what is more compassionate? Letting someone you care about live the way they want to for 100 or so years and then go to hell for all eternity, or rather, sharing your faith with them and trying very hard to show them the love of Jesus and that what he said was true so that the person would spend eternity in joy, rather than anguish?
If a Christian says to you that "I believe in Jesus, but it's not for everyone, you can have your beliefs about who God is and that's cool too" then I would seriously question that person's faith. Sure, it may conform well to our society's love of universal acceptance and moral relativism, but all that doesn't matter if it isn't the truth. Remember, your faith alone doesn't save you, it's who you put your faith in that does.
That's not sharing your faith. Sharing your faith would be telling the person that they would lead a much richer and fuller spitural life by believing in your religion. Telling them they are going to hell is just trying to use fear to convert them into your religion.
The Jewish Approach to God
I think in the world we live in today--we must realize and understand a little bit about Judaism, which is the root religion from which Catholicism, Islam and Christianity all derive from.
It is essential that those who profess to be worshipers of one of these cultivars understand where they came from.
If they would only realize and understand they are all praying to the same God--we would all be much the better.
The link is a book recommendation for all who are serious about understanding their own faith.
I think in the world we live in today--we must realize and understand a little bit about Judaism, which is the root religion from which Catholicism, Islam and Christianity all derive from.
It is essential that those who profess to be worshipers of one of these cultivars understand where they came from.
If they would only realize and understand they are all praying to the same God--we would all be much the better.
The link is a book recommendation for all who are serious about understanding their own faith.
maybe if Christianity wasn't an imposter religion based on many texts that weren't even written or spoken by its founder, there wouldn't really be any problems.
edit - when i say imposter, i mean that it is pretending to be about Jesus, and what Jesus said and did, when it is in fact way more about Paul and other early Catholics than anything about love or forgiveness - at least how many practice and interepret it, and its official dogma in many places / churches.
edit - when i say imposter, i mean that it is pretending to be about Jesus, and what Jesus said and did, when it is in fact way more about Paul and other early Catholics than anything about love or forgiveness - at least how many practice and interepret it, and its official dogma in many places / churches.
Catholicism = Is Christianity. Protestants are just a group that broke away from the original Christian church of Europe to form their own church. There all Christians in my book.
Michael
Elite member
- Nov 19, 1999
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Infohawk - The Bible doesn't say that there is any thing wrong being rich in and of itself. The warnings around being rich are that material possessions and the pursuit of wealth are huge risks to your longterm salvation because they can easily distract you from what is truly important.
You can be pious and wealthly, it is just a rarer combination.
Michael
You can be pious and wealthly, it is just a rarer combination.
Michael
Most of the world's Christians are Catholics. See the religious populations by religion and by religion from EB at http://www.zpub.com/un/pope/relig.html
Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Word.
Another thing I find problematic with Bush and those like him is the love your enemy / turn the other cheek thing. I remember when there was that special on how he responded to 9/11, the first thing he said to Cheney is, "someone's gonna' pay for this" or something to that nature. Not only was that immature, it was unchristian.
I don't understand why more protestants, who are supposed to read the actual bible a lot, don't see this. Also, are there any preachers that actually make this argument? It would be nice to hear a religious voice that wasn't in league with warmongers and their ilk.
:|
Whats going to happen when an atheist gets elected? Will the left wing atheists of the country see that presidents compassion, or anything else typically called Christian behavior as being un-atheist? :roll:
Compassion? You can't possibly be talking about bush.
In a very real sense, and with no direspect intended--Judaism = all of the above. That is the point, radical as it may sound to some.
Islam, Christianity and even N number of protestant sects are fundamentaly practicing the cult of Judaism.
Wasn't arguing with A. Can't help but laugh at B... You're trying to fallaciously justify using a fallacy?
I would agree with this. Unfortunately, for many it's hard to do because if someone just says 'that sounds like too much work,' then in their opinion that person is screwed. They try the scare tactics up front. On the flip side, if you don't believe in God, then you probably don't believe in hell anyway, so you should just be able to laugh it off, right?
The Catholic approach has been to start hospitals and schools, like Mother Theresa's, and not preach to anyone. The thinking is that by demonstrating your faith, people will become curious about it and inquire - then you're at liberty to discuss it with them. This seems the most reasonable to me in our society, as it doesn't force anyone to be uncomfortable, but I can also see the Protestant viewpoint where they want to 'save' as many people as they can before it's too late. I might not particularly care for their methodology, but then, I might be Catholic as well.
Not exactly, though it's not necessarily easy to tell you why in this format and be convincing. Suffice it to say, many of the core beliefs about the way you should live your life are very similar, but there are other differences that are significant.
I agree. If you break those religions down to their respective cores they are all basically part of or heavily influenced from the Jewish religion at one point but Islam IMHO less so then Christianity. Also if you look at the influences that the Jewish religion gave to both Christianity and Islam you also see that Judaism is a cult of sorts which formed from the many ancient religions of the Middle-East. Many early Hebrews also worshiped minor gods from other religions who they saw as servants to their God. They viewed the Hebrew God as being the main and only God of all peoples. Many traditions that Jews have can be traced back to ancient Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, etc... religions that preceded it or influenced it in that area of the world.
Please offer scripture in support of your position. Frankly when I read
it's pretty obvious it's not very Christian to be wealthy. Also, look at the lifestyle Jesus lead. He advocated given everything away and helping others.
Let me see your scripture.... 'Cause I call bullshit. The protestant attitude to wealth was developed in the middle-ages to justify taking the easy way out.
It's a slippery slope for you to say that religion influencing any of our leaders will eventually return us to the monarchies of the dark ages. Putting more religion into government is hardly extremist - I'd be willing to bet the majority of Americans (the majority, in fact, being Christian) would support it. That doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do, but that hardly makes the Bush administration extremists.
I already stated that I'll discuss gay marriage in another thread, not here. I'll only say that your hypothetical argument against gay marriage is laughable, and one that I've never heard before.
And I call your taking Bible verses out of the context of the whole book bullshit. You are not in a position to decide whose belief system is appropriate or not appropriate, nor am I. You try to justify your agnosticism by demeaning everyone else's beliefs - who is trying to take the easy way out?
Back it up. That's all you have to do. But you can't because you know it's bogus. If you're not in a position to decide if my belief system is appropriate than why are you challenging right now? It's part of my belief system... :roll:
Nice assumptions. I respect Jesus' beliefs. They're principles that are also found in other religions. My point is that the people that call themselves Christians aren't true christians, either based on scripture OR on the historical life of Jesus. If you disagree, back up your statement with some history or scripture.
The thing I always forget to do is to be grateful. I have life in an infinitely rich and mysterious universe and I constantly fall asleep there. I have a million blessings I never notice. I think that if I woke up I would die of shame.
He's not likely to be talking about the Dark Ages, when the feudal system reigned and monarchs were mostly powerless. He's much more likely talking about the era when powerful monarchs ruled their kingdoms according to divine right, which began in the late 15th century with the formation of the kingdom of Spain and the growth in power of the French monarchy after the 100 Years War and continued until WW1.
However, the salient point is that you're reading more into his post than he actually said--he's not claiming that the US will become a monarchy. That doesn't mean moving towards theocracy is good though. While modern theocracies aren't monarchies, they are still authoratarian regimes like 1980s Iran that most of us wouldn't like to live in.
Most Americans are Christian, but it doesn't follow from that fact that most of them want to put more religion into government. After all, they're also Americans. One core difference between the minority of fundamentalists and the majority of believers is that the fundamentalists are extremists who want to their faith to control the US government.
Nice assumptions. I respect Jesus' beliefs. They're principles that are also found in other religions. My point is that the people that call themselves Christians aren't true christians, either based on scripture OR on the historical life of Jesus. If you disagree, back up your statement with some history or scripture.
[/quote]
Paul won the battle with the original Christians in Jerusalem led by James, brother of Jesus, and the Apostles, for which version of Christianity would dominate Europe for three primary reasons:
1. Paul didn't require following Jewish law, so it was easier for him to gain converts than it was for the Apostles.
2. Jerusalem was at the center of the Jewish wars of the 1st and 2nd centuries, which destroyed the Temple and killed many of both the Jews and the Jewish followers of Jesus and dispersed the survivors.
3. Constantine wanted a religion that would unify the Roman Empire, so he convened the Catholic/Orthodox (they hadn't split yet) bishops to produce the Nicene Creed and to supress the Christian books which were deemed harmful to this new state religion.
Edit: Note that many of the supressed books, like the Gospel of Thomas, Acts of Peter, and many more survived in the Bibles of the non-European branches of Christianity, which is why when someone says "the Bible," you should always ask "which Bible?" In the US, people usually mean the Protestant Bible, but not always.
No, I refuse to pretend that I have to justify any religious belief that I might have to a two-bit punk like yourself. If you half-believed your own theory that religion shouldn't be a part of government, that religion should be each person's choice, then you wouldn't try to harass others about their religion. You, sir, are breaking new ground in hypocrisy. Further, you paint ALL people that call themselves Christians (which comprise % of the entire planet's population) hypocrites. To quote Lawrence from Office Space:
:thumbsdown:
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