Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Capt Caveman]

hypotehtical: you drop your wallet. Good samaritan picks up your wallet and chases after you to return it. You are afraid of him, so you run away.

Is he guilty of a crime?

Did Martin drop his skittles?

And did the person picking up the wallet follow the other guy in a vehicle first?

 

[CLite]

hypotehtical: you drop your wallet. Good samaritan picks up your wallet and chases after you to return it. You are afraid of him, so you run away.

Is he guilty of a crime?

hypothetically, if someone breaks into your house because it's on fire and he wants to save your child who is screaming for help is he breaking and entering?

hypotheticals are fun but there is no similarity between returning a wallet and chasing person who you think of as a "fucking my excellent compatriot" with a loaded weapon that you believe is acting suspiciously.

 

[HomerJS]

suspicions often prove to be mistaken. Being suspicious of someone is not criminal.

Let's just say you are correct and both their suspicions were unfounded, one person tried to get away the other person persued. The person who tried to get away wound up dead.

 

[micrometers]

hypothetically, if someone breaks into your house because it's on fire and he wants to save your child who is screaming for help is he breaking and entering?

hypotheticals are fun but there is no similarity between returning a wallet and chasing person who you think of as a "fucking my excellent compatriot" with a loaded weapon that you believe is acting suspiciously.

hey, I'm trying. The act of pointing a gun at someone is almost always criminal, but the act of chasing after someone is really not.

 

[alien42]

hypotehtical: you drop your wallet. Good samaritan picks up your wallet and chases after you to return it. You are afraid of him, so you run away.

Is he guilty of a crime?

big difference between that hypothetical where the person would also be saying "hey, you dropped your wallet" as opposed to Z whose mental state was "these assholes always get away with it" "fucking my excellent compatriot/punk" and "he looks like he is on drugs"

why did Zimmerman not present himself as neighborhood watch and state that the police were on the way?

 

[werepossum]

hypotehtical: you drop your wallet. Good samaritan picks up your wallet and chases after you to return it. You are afraid of him, so you run away.

Is he guilty of a crime?

Depends. Is he trying to return it by shooting it at you?

 

[micrometers]

big difference between that hypothetical where the person would also be saying "hey, you dropped your wallet" as opposed to Z whose mental state was "these assholes always get away with it" "fucking my excellent compatriot/punk" and "he looks like he is on drugs"

why did Zimmerman not present himself as neighborhood watch and state that the police were on the way?

the analogy isn't perfect and I'm just talking about the action of following someone who is afraid of you.

Zimmerman is an idiot is the answer to the second Q.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Damn this is going to be a fun month or two waiting for the grand jury to decide if they have any evidence or testimony to establish probable cause in this case.

 

[WHAMPOM]

hypotehtical: you drop your wallet. Good samaritan picks up your wallet and chases after you to return it. You are afraid of him, so you run away.

Is he guilty of a crime?

Depends on the communication, "Hay! I've got your wallet!" or "Fucking coons!"

edit ; of course a belligerent man out weighing you by a hundred pounds getting out of his truck after stalking you on a dark and stormy night....

 

[micrometers]

Let's just say you are correct and both their suspicions were unfounded, one person tried to get away the other person persued. The person who tried to get away wound up dead.

All I am saying is that suspecting someone of being up to no good is not a crime and thus does not invalidate SYG. Following a suspicious person is not a crime either. The criminal act started in the back yard and we don't have proof of who is culpable. That is why there has not been an arrest.

 

[werepossum]

depends on the communication, "hay! I've got your wallet!" or "fucking coons!"

lmao! +1

 

[micrometers]

Depends on the communication, "Hay! I've got your wallet!" or "Fucking coons!"

DId he shout that to Trayvon? No.

 

[etrigan420]

This is how it'll play out:

-No criminal charges against Z.
-1, maybe 2, officers will "retire" from whatever Podunkville police department cluster bombed the investigation.
-Civil charges will be brought up on Z, and the aforementioned Podunkville P.D.
-Z and P.D. will be found "not liable".
-Riots in the streets.
-Sublime writes a song about it.

Maybe not the last one...

 

[Pens1566]

A 911 dispatcher is not law enforcement.

Semantics. He still disregarded the suggestion from someone with more knowledge on how to handle those types of situations.

 

[CLite]

Has anyone actually explained how a lanky 6'3" 140 pound (I'd almost say that's anorexic) teenager was able to subdue a former bouncer and person who has trained to be with the cops who weighed 250 pounds to the point that the man feared for his life? Oh and if you post a link involving professional boxers you are announcing your sheer stupidity to the world.

The facts do not align themselves with the story the police have put together. I can see how Martin could bloody Z up a little bit as a reactionary protective mode, I don't see how Martin initiates the encounter and subdues Z the point that Z thinks his life is in peril.

 

[micrometers]

Has anyone actually explained how a lanky 6'3" 140 pound (I'd almost say that's anorexic) teenager was able to subdue a former bouncer and person who has trained to be with the cops who weighed 250 pounds to the point that the man feared for his life? Oh and if you post a link involving professional boxers you are announcing your sheer stupidity to the world.

The facts do not align themselves with the story the police have put together. I can see how Martin could bloody Z up a little bit as a reactionary protective mode, I don't see how Martin initiates the encounter and subdues Z the point that Z thinks his life is in peril.

He was probably a better athlete. Maybe got lucky. What is important is that two witnesses saw Martin on top shortly before being shot. There has not been a witness that saw Zimmerman on top of Martin yet.

 

[spidey07]

A 911 dispatcher is not law enforcement.

EXACTLY!

And they didn't say "don't follow" they said "we don't need you to do that"

It's a perfect example of many folks ignoring the facts and making the story up in their head regardless of the facts and evidence. If they keep repeating it along with the media they believe it to be true.

Police have stated that Martin was the aggressor and that physical evidence shows that along with affirming Zimmerman's account (again, without an attorney present). They have access to all the evidence, we don't.

If there was some shred of evidence that Zimmerman was indeed the aggressor then police would have probable cause to arrest him. They have not and have said countless times they don't have evidence or probable cause. If this made up story in folks minds happened, they would arrest.

But it didn't and there is no evidence of this made up story. I highly doubt a grand jury will give an indictment, no evidence a crime was committed by zimmerman and plenty of evidence of forcible felony by Martin.

 

[micrometers]

Semantics. He still disregarded the suggestion from someone with more knowledge on how to handle those types of situations.

it does matter since he is not disobeying an order. disobeying an order could have stripped him of SYG.

 

[Ninjahedge]

I did not know we had a chat room on ATOT......

 

[alien42]

Has anyone actually explained how a lanky 6'3" 140 pound (I'd almost say that's anorexic) teenager was able to subdue a former bouncer and person who has trained to be with the cops who weighed 250 pounds to the point that the man feared for his life?

yeah, when the fat man chases down the skinny man and attacks him while out of breath.

 

[CLite]

He was probably a better athlete. Maybe got lucky. What is important is that two witnesses saw Martin on top shortly before being shot. There has not been a witness that saw Zimmerman on top of Martin yet.

In a tussle I can imagine some rolling around and I could easily see Martin getting on top for maybe 10-20 seconds. In the end that doesn't matter at all, unless a witness actually saw how they got to the ground and when the bullet was precisely fired the fact that Martin managed to be on top at some point in the struggle means nothing.

A 140 pound lanky near-anorexic teenager isn't going to bring a 250 pound man to the brink of death justifying a shooting.

 

[etrigan420]

...plenty of evidence of forcible felony by Martin.

That only *you* know about? Where is this "plenty of evidence"?

 

[micrometers]

In a tussle I can imagine some rolling around and I could easily see Martin getting on top for maybe 10-20 seconds. In the end that doesn't matter at all, unless a witness actually saw how they got to the ground and when the bullet was precisely fired the fact that Martin managed to be on top at some point in the struggle means nothing.

A 140 pound lanky near-anorexic teenager isn't going to bring a 250 pound man to the brink of death justifying a shooting.

the law doesn't require brink of death, just bodily harm. we're talking about what is legally provable, not what is morally right. If you want to talk morality, then yes, Z is a monster and T is a saint.

It is likely that there was more back and forth, but all that we have from witnesses is T on top of Z.

 

[rchiu]

the law doesn't require brink of death, just bodily harm. we're talking about what is legally provable, not what is morally right. If you want to talk morality, then yes, Z is a monster and T is a saint.

It is likely that there was more back and forth, but all that we have from witnesses is T on top of Z.

Well you can continue to talk out of your @ss without any legal background and experience to back up your claim. We have a few people in this forum with actual legal experience weight in and disagree on your definition on self defense.

Even Florida Rep. Dennis Baxley, who was the prime House sponsor of the legislation, also weighed in on such a position. "Nothing in 'stand your ground' authorizes (you) to pursue and confront".

 

[CLite]

the law doesn't require brink of death, just bodily harm. we're talking about what is legally provable, not what is morally right. If you want to talk morality, then yes, Z is a monster and T is a saint.

It is likely that there was more back and forth, but all that we have from witnesses is T on top of Z.

That's not how the Florida Licensing department spells it out. If I hit you with a punch escalating that to lethal measure is not justified. Getting a few punches is not "seriously injured".