There's a line around the block at the Gas Station!

[Wonderful Pork]

Originally posted by: iversonyin

Originally posted by: Wonderful Pork

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate
#1 People are not bitching about the high price of gas. That would be kind of pointless. It sucks but its inoffensive. What IS offensive, is high price of gas PLUS record profits not just for the oil industry, but historical record profits for any company anywhere. It's ridiculous.

And yes, I realize that the govt is dis-incented to care about increased pump prices, because every increase drives up tax revenues. You've got the govt in de facto common cause with robber baron oilco's. The worst possible situation.

This is exactly what bothers me. When Katrina hit and all the refineries went down and oil was up to 78/barrel gas was ~$3.10. That I understand.

Now they are STILL blaming refinery issues 2 years later and refineries seem to keep going down week after week but they are having NO issue supplying the 25 million (or whatever) barrels we need per day since there aren't any empty stations! (Empty stations due to being 30c less per gallon is a different issue.)

I'd bet dollars to donuts that if they we losing ANY money trying to keep up with the demand that all the refineries would be running at >97% capacity. But they are creating a perceived artificial shortage and the futures traders are driving up the price based on that speculation. Thats what bothers me.

When was the last time we build a refinery and why?

Why are the refineries running at a lower capacity than 2 years ago? And if demand is SO much greater than supply how come there are zero empty stations? There should be some because apparently there isnt enough gas to go around!

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: iversonyin

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate
#1 People are not bitching about the high price of gas. That would be kind of pointless. It sucks but its inoffensive. What IS offensive, is high price of gas PLUS record profits not just for the oil industry, but historical record profits for any company anywhere. It's ridiculous.

If you own stocks in anyway, it wouldn't so ridiculous. Would it?

yes. I like to make a buck as much as the next guy, but:

profits < national economic stability & well being for middle class consumers that drive the economy

All that's happening here is that the Oilco's are grabbing a slice from the middle income discretionary spending pie in addition to their historical slice. this is coming largely at the expense of more discretionary spending options in the short term (especially dining out and entertainment), buta s the prices rise, consumers feel the pinch even harder as they start having to cut back on expenditures that are quasi-necessities. At $4/gallon, a lot of blue collar families are gonna be running really lean household budgets.

 

[jlbenedict]

today oil dropped more than a $1 a barrel to fall below $65 per barrel.. yet gas is damn near at an all time high (inflation adjusted)..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070522/ap_...ices;_ylt=AlTtdBZJWd0_Jk.oL.J7tqSs0NUE

 

[slsmnaz]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: iversonyin

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate
#1 People are not bitching about the high price of gas. That would be kind of pointless. It sucks but its inoffensive. What IS offensive, is high price of gas PLUS record profits not just for the oil industry, but historical record profits for any company anywhere. It's ridiculous.

If you own stocks in anyway, it wouldn't so ridiculous. Would it?

yes. I like to make a buck as much as the next guy, but:

profits < national economic stability & well being for middle class consumers that drive the economy

All that's happening here is that the Oilco's are grabbing a slice from the middle income discretionary spending pie in addition to their historical slice. this is coming largely at the expense of more discretionary spending options in the short term (especially dining out and entertainment), buta s the prices rise, consumers feel the pinch even harder as they start having to cut back on expenditures that are quasi-necessities. At $4/gallon, a lot of blue collar families are gonna be running really lean household budgets.

BooHoo. Tell them to cut off the cell phones and cable TV and their extra gas money is right there. Those aren't "quasi-necessities" they are choices.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: jlbenedict
today oil dropped more than a $1 a barrel to fall below $65 per barrel.. yet gas is damn near at an all time high (inflation adjusted)..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070522/ap_...ices;_ylt=AlTtdBZJWd0_Jk.oL.J7tqSs0NUE

Memorial Day "justification".

The capitalist competition model is broken in this industry. The number of competitors is too few, there are no complete alternatives, and the barriers to entry are almost absolute, so no new competition.

At this point, a breakup is in order. Really don't want to see some of the new tax legislation proposed by congress. And that's as close to discussing politics as I'll get, cause I couldn't care less about the parties and politico's.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate
#1 People are not bitching about the high price of gas. That would be kind of pointless. It sucks but its inoffensive. What IS offensive, is high price of gas PLUS record profits not just for the oil industry, but historical record profits for any company anywhere. It's ridiculous.

And yes, I realize that the govt is dis-incented to care about increased pump prices, because every increase drives up tax revenues. You've got the govt in de facto common cause with robber baron oilco's. The worst possible situation.

#2 To the moron's spouting the milk argument:

a) I am concerned that it is going up. But not that concerned. It's ****** MILK. (see point b for clarification)

b) Milk has lots of readily avilable substitutes. Gas doesn't.

c) I use a Gallon of milk every couple of weeks. I use 50 gallons of gas commuting to my job in the same time frame. 50>>>>>>>>>>1.


#3 - I've already summed up the situation concisely:

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate
Lack of real substitutes + iron grip of collusional oligopy + pretext of holiday weekend somehow affecting supply that has been in groud tanks for weeks = massive price spike and record profits.

you, my friends, are my hero. You succinctly and elooquently summed up everything I was thinking.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: slsmnaz
BooHoo. Tell them to cut off the cell phones and cable TV and their extra gas money is right there. Those aren't "quasi-necessities" they are choices.

Translation:

Oilco's profits > basic food & clothing for middle income families.

Gotcha. I vehemently disagree and abhor your attitude, but I gotcha.

 

[iversonyin]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: iversonyin

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate
#1 People are not bitching about the high price of gas. That would be kind of pointless. It sucks but its inoffensive. What IS offensive, is high price of gas PLUS record profits not just for the oil industry, but historical record profits for any company anywhere. It's ridiculous.

If you own stocks in anyway, it wouldn't so ridiculous. Would it?

yes. I like to make a buck as much as the next guy, but:

profits < national economic stability & well being for middle class consumers that drive the economy

All that's happening here is that the Oilco's are grabbing a slice from the middle income discretionary spending pie in addition to their historical slice. this is coming largely at the expense of more discretionary spending options in the short term (especially dining out and entertainment), buta s the prices rise, consumers feel the pinch even harder as they start having to cut back on expenditures that are quasi-necessities. At $4/gallon, a lot of blue collar families are gonna be running really lean household budgets.

From all the economics numbers I read and use (Michigan Sentiment, Consumer confidence), these middle class consumers haven't feel that big of a pinch.

And the fact is, if middle class have investment such as IRA and 401k that invest in stocks indirectly, their wealth increase make up more than enough for that increase in discretionary spending.

Blame it on Oilcos all you want. I'm sure bunch of guys that driving cars that yield 10 MPG has absolutely nothing to do with it and neither our government allowing those kind of vehicles being make.

Just playing devil advocate here.

 

[ranmaniac]

You can also thank a weak dollar, which is great for other countries to buy our goods, but not so great when we have to buy foreign goods etc.

 

[iversonyin]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: slsmnaz
BooHoo. Tell them to cut off the cell phones and cable TV and their extra gas money is right there. Those aren't "quasi-necessities" they are choices.

Translation:

Oilco's profits > basic food & clothing for middle income families.

Gotcha. I vehemently disagree and abhor your attitude, but I gotcha.

Exxon push a button and make oil price go up. Gotcha

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: iversonyin
From all the economics numbers I read and use (Michigan Sentiment, Consumer confidence), these middle class consumers haven't feel that big of a pinch.

And the fact is, if middle class have investment such as IRA and 401k that invest in stocks indirectly, their wealth increase make up more than enough for that increase in discretionary spending.

Blame it on Oilcos all you want. I'm sure bunch of guys that driving cars that yield 10 MPG has absolutely nothing to do with it and neither our government allowing those kind of vehicles being make.

Just playing devil advocate here.

I'm perfectly okay with someone playing devils advocate. I think you and I strongly differ on our perception of middle class though. Middle class/blue collar folks that I know of do not have stock portfolios and large retirement accounts (not that they could tap those without screwing themselves, so bad example, but I get your point). I'm thinking of the almost check to check types in lower end houses with a mortgage, 2 kids and a dog.

And, using specific examples is pretty pointless for either side. You can alsways find some redneck that would rather live in a moldy 30 year old trailer rather than a decent house if it meant he could keept his direct tv or still drive his 10 mpg dually (I have to be spelling that wrong) with his favorite NASCAR driver's # on the back window.

Macro trends are whats important. And what I've seen is that middle earners have already eliminated or cut many pure discretionary expenditures and are moving on to the ones I'd call quasi-necessities such as decent quality (or quantity) food and clothing. There's still some fudge room here, but every nudge upwards starts cutting closer to the bone. BTW, let's not forget that we're talking about RECORD PROFITS. I'd understand if the Oilco's were just sloughing through too, but they are seeing unprecdented windfalls with no end or justification in sight. Speculators are making a killing too, adding virtually no value to the equation but extorting huge profits.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: ranmaniac
You can also thank a weak dollar, which is great for other countries to buy our goods, but not so great when we have to buy foreign goods etc.

excellent point.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: iversonyin

Exxon push a button and make PUMP price go up. Gotcha

Fixed. And correct. They dictate price to subsidiary distributors who dictate prices to C-Store operators. The last person I'd get mad at is the Kwik-E-Mart operator. He posts the dictated price or he gets none. He needs the lure of pumps to get you in the door to buy $5 twinkies and $2 sodas, so he complies.

 

[slsmnaz]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: slsmnaz
BooHoo. Tell them to cut off the cell phones and cable TV and their extra gas money is right there. Those aren't "quasi-necessities" they are choices.

Translation:

Oilco's profits > basic food & clothing for middle income families.

Gotcha. I vehemently disagree and abhor your attitude, but I gotcha.

I didn't realize cell phones and cable = food and clothing

So a person should not have to choose what they spend their money on but should force businesses to lower their prices so they can afford everything.

Gotcha. I vehemently disagree and abhor your attitude, but I gotcha.

 

[KarenMarie]

The difference between $3.34 and $3.66 on 20 gallons of gas is what... like $6.50, give or take a few cents?

Not worth my time to wait in line for. Not even once a week.

 

[slsmnaz]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

I'm perfectly okay with someone playing devils advocate. I think you and I strongly differ on our perception of middle class though. Middle class/blue collar folks that I know of do not have stock portfolios and large retirement accounts (not that they could tap those without screwing themselves, so bad example, but I get your point). I'm thinking of the almost check to check types in lower end houses with a mortgage, 2 kids and a dog.

Macro trends are whats important. And what I've seen is that middle earners have already eliminated or cut many pure discretionary expenditures and are moving on to the ones I'd call quasi-necessities such as decent quality (or quantity) food and clothing. There's still some fudge room here, but every nudge upwards starts cutting closer to the bone. BTW, let's not forget that we're talking about RECORD PROFITS. I'd understand if the Oilco's were just sloughing through too, but they are seeing unprecdented windfalls with no end or justification in sight. Speculators are making a killing too, adding virtually no value to the equation but extorting huge profits.

Mortgage, 2 kids and a dog are all choices the person has made. If they impact their life so much then they should better eval their life before making them.

Please quit throwing out the argument of record profits and letting the big dollars scare you. If they were truly screwing the consumer their profit margin would be rising at the same rate and they are not.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: slsmnaz

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: slsmnaz
BooHoo. Tell them to cut off the cell phones and cable TV and their extra gas money is right there. Those aren't "quasi-necessities" they are choices.

Translation:

Oilco's profits > basic food & clothing for middle income families.

Gotcha. I vehemently disagree and abhor your attitude, but I gotcha.

I didn't realize cell phones and cable = food and clothing

So a person should not have to choose what they spend their money on but should force businesses to lower their prices so they can afford everything.

Gotcha. I vehemently disagree and abhor your attitude, but I gotcha.

Basicly, you haven't read a thing I said for comprehension and just want to be argumentative. This is obvious because I haven't once discussed price controls yet you just said I did. What I did say is that there is a P&N link on the left side of the page. Click it. Enjoy.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: slsmnazIf they were truly screwing the consumer their profit margin would be rising at the same rate and they are not.

Gross margins are increasing. So much for your rhetoric.

 

[nakedfrog]

Damn, is IcebergSlim an oil company plant or something?

 

[slsmnaz]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: slsmnaz

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: slsmnaz
BooHoo. Tell them to cut off the cell phones and cable TV and their extra gas money is right there. Those aren't "quasi-necessities" they are choices.

Translation:

Oilco's profits > basic food & clothing for middle income families.

Gotcha. I vehemently disagree and abhor your attitude, but I gotcha.

I didn't realize cell phones and cable = food and clothing

So a person should not have to choose what they spend their money on but should force businesses to lower their prices so they can afford everything.

Gotcha. I vehemently disagree and abhor your attitude, but I gotcha.

Basicly, you haven't read a thing I said for comprehension and just want to be argumentative. This is obvious because I haven't once discussed price controls yet you just said I did. What I did say is that there is a P&N link on the left side of the page. Click it. Enjoy.

Is there a hidden meaning I should get from your post? I mentioned cell phones and you equated that to food and clothing.

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: slsmnazIf they were truly screwing the consumer their profit margin would be rising at the same rate and they are not.

Gross margins are increasing. So much for your rhetoric.

To what 10-12% (got a link)?? You should check and see what other companies and making before you call that out of control.

EDIT: A search of wiki shows a rise from 9.7 to 10.14% in 2 years.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: jlbenedict
today oil dropped more than a $1 a barrel to fall below $65 per barrel.. yet gas is damn near at an all time high (inflation adjusted)..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070522/ap_...ices;_ylt=AlTtdBZJWd0_Jk.oL.J7tqSs0NUE

Weather has played an increasingly important role in oil prices in recent years.

Prices surged to $70 a barrel for the first time in 2005 as Hurricane Katrina ravaged the Gulf of Mexico Coast.

They broke above $78 a barrel in July 2006 on worries of another bad storm season, and then sank to $60 a barrel when those expectations were not met.

The capitalist competition model is broken in this industry. The number of competitors is too few, there are no complete alternatives, and the barriers to entry are almost absolute, so no new competition.

At this point, a breakup is in order.

How long has there been such a thing called weather???

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: rdubbz420
I don't give a rats ass if I pay $10 more a week to drive. If you don't like it, drive less or get a smaller car.

But that would require doing something.

It's much easier to just cry about high prices than to actually change my lifestyle

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
The difference between $3.34 and $3.66 on 20 gallons of gas is what... like $6.50, give or take a few cents?

Not worth my time to wait in line for. Not even once a week.

I won't wait in line, but let's put this in perspective. I am a fairly average commuter (and I commute because the homes near my office are double the price of mine - I bought a little less than I could afford and no more). I burn about 50 gallons every 2 weeks. My car has a modest 3.0L V6 (I'm gonna sell it soon - wife drives a 48mpg TDI), that gets in the high 20's per gallon (not great but not exactly an SUV).

50 gallons x 52 weeks / 2 week intervals x $0.32 per gallon increase means that my fuel cost for the year has increased by $416 if the prices remain at or near that level. That's an increase. My absolute cost is now $4,758, rather than $4,342. You cannot ignore the absolute dollars because those are real costs. And that assumes I don't take my kid to see his parents, or take any other "discretionary" trips. Knowing that we're all supposed to be mindless workerbees, that's not an issue, at least until my parents & in laws take offense when I dont return the favor so they can see their grandchild.

PS - if you're responding seriously to my last comment, get out and relax. levity - just try some.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Damn, is IcebergSlim an oil company plant or something?

He's traded in the strip club for a job as an Exxon shill.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: rdubbz420


Sorry for being a voice of reason. People like you drive up the price with all the panic, panic mayhem crap. Why don?t you stop worrying and make a change.

Ok, since you already answered that beyond our control speculation is responsible for a large portion of the price increase, riddle me this then dumbass. If we are already driving the minimum of just to and from work and a once a week trip for groceries exactly how much else is there to cut back on.