The Islamic thread

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Trente

Originally posted by: Klixxer
What i find highly amusing is that Aimster ("bad Muslim") and me ("bad Jew") get along just fine while people like Sultan ("good Muslim") and Trente ("good Jew") would have no problems killing eachother if they had a chance.

If that is the case, then I am hardly a "good Jew". I am NOT radical as you present me in here.

LOL, i just read what you wrote in the thread about Iran and the missiles.

You ARE a radical, there is no doubt about it, you have presented your views several times, and every time you have presented radical views.

You have proclaimed your extremist views in a very personal way towards me, it is your belief but realize that it is ONLY your belief.

Other than that, heh, extremist muslim, jew, christian, who cares, all the same.

 

[Tarpon6]

Hi Sultan, I have a question. According to Islam are homicide bombers ok? Is it acceptable for a muslim to strap a bomb to himself and then get on a bus with innocent men, women, and children and blow himself up, killing everyone on the bus?

 

[Pliablemoose]

I'm accustomed to the difference between Orthodox, moderate & progressive groups of Christians & Jews,

Aimster or Sultan can you post a link or show me a range of similar groups of Muslims?

 

[Sultan]

So, is the company you invest in one of the 'safe' companies? I'm not even Muslim, but it's clearly stated by most scholars that you must 'relax' Islam if you want to invest in most companies.

I dont see how this has any relevance to this thread. I answered your question.

So, is Jizyah an Islamic thing or not?

Yes, Jizyah is an Islamic thing since the tax is levied by an Islamic government. For more information, please read: Wikipedia entry - Jizyah

If you require more information, please let me know. Hope this helps.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Aimster
1) And do not kill your children out of fear of poverty; We shall provide for them and for you. Truly, the killing of them is a great sin. (17:31) ...When the female child who was buried alive is asked for what crime she was killed. (81:8-9)
...That they will not steal nor commit zina nor kill their children....(60:12)

I can rape your wife, kill your family and you have no right to murder me according to the rules of the Quran. My punishment will be received when I leave this life. This life is a test for Muslims and by killing another soul you are failing the test.

2) Taxes in Islam : Zakart : Almsgiving; one of the five "pillars" of Islam. Muslims who have wealth remaining over the year must pay a certain percentage to aid those in need. While it can be paid anytime during the year, many people prefer to pay it during Ramadan. 2.5%.

3) It doesn't say in the Quran women should cover up. It says women should dress modestly. You can take that for whatever you want and twist it around like Sultan has.

Hijab (head cover) for Muslim women is not mandated in the Qur?an. If it is, it is only the subjective interpretation of an ayah (verse) on the part of the reader.

4) Taliban good for Afghanistan? 1) Women were forced to wear Burqua, Women could not go anywhere without male supervision 3) Women were stoned to death without a trial (for swearing!), Women were kidnapped from their homes and married off to Taliban. Women were not allowed to talk to any males except for their husband/brother/father.

This post serves no purpose. I will not engage in tit-for-tat argument with Aimster. All the above I have already replied to and explored as the questions have been asked.

I would just like to correct his point 3. I have posted the EXACT Quranic verse which advises women to how to dress, advised Aimster of the Arabic word Jalabeeb, and still Aimster insists on arguing. Please read my posts before making comments.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Do Muslims believe that the Quran is a literal book - that everything in it should be taken at face value? Do different sects believe that it should be strictly literal while others see it differently?

Yes, Muslims believe the Quran is a literal word of God.

In the Quran, we have clear-cut injunctions, and we have some ambiguous injunctions. While all Muslims agree on the clear-cut injunctions, such as Namaaz (Salaat), Fasting (Roza), Hajj (Pilgrimage), etc, the differing viewpoints arise because of the ambiguous injunctions.

It is imperative to note that the ambiguous injunctions are present for those who interpret the Quran use these injunctions and value them with the current social context. There arises the difference in opinion where some scholars choose to view the scenarios and the injunctions differently. For example, cigarettes is an issue which was not present 1400 years ago and therefore does not have any Islamic law against it. Scholars disagree whether is it haram (prohibited) or whether it is makrooh (disliked).

Even the Quranic injunctions are supposed to be taken in the context of which they were revealed. The Quran is also a book of laws, which when read and used for jurisprudence, should be taken as precedent, similar to how the legal system works here.

 

[Trente]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Trente

Originally posted by: Klixxer
What i find highly amusing is that Aimster ("bad Muslim") and me ("bad Jew") get along just fine while people like Sultan ("good Muslim") and Trente ("good Jew") would have no problems killing eachother if they had a chance.

If that is the case, then I am hardly a "good Jew". I am NOT radical as you present me in here.

LOL, i just read what you wrote in the thread about Iran and the missiles.

You ARE a radical, there is no doubt about it, you have presented your views several times, and every time you have presented radical views.

You have proclaimed your extremist views in a very personal way towards me, it is your belief but realize that it is ONLY your belief.

Other than that, heh, extremist muslim, jew, christian, who cares, all the same.

You have to realize that in Israel, people like me are not considered extreme, but moderate. If your country was facing so many threats, for such a long time, by so many countries and organizations, you would, too, take a bit more extreme POV than usual...

Edit: BTW, about calling those words from Yesha'ayahu upon you - it just seemed very strange that you are a Jew saying Israel should be nuked. It does sound absurd to me that you could actually say that...

Am I extreme? well, if you think so, be my guest. I just think i'm being reasonable...

May God bless you too!

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Tarpon6
Hi Sultan, I have a question. According to Islam are homicide bombers ok? Is it acceptable for a muslim to strap a bomb to himself and then get on a bus with innocent men, women, and children and blow himself up, killing everyone on the bus?

If you are solely asking about homicide bombers, Islam clearly states the killing and murder of innocents is wrong.

Here is a Quranic quote (and there are others) which should put your fears to rest:

025.068
And those who cry not unto any other god along with Allah, nor take the life which Allah hath forbidden save in (course of) justice, nor commit adultery - and whoso doeth this shall pay the penalty

If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask.

 

[tallest1]

bump for a great thread

and a :thumbsdown: for Aimster's rudeness

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Trente

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Trente

Originally posted by: Klixxer
What i find highly amusing is that Aimster ("bad Muslim") and me ("bad Jew") get along just fine while people like Sultan ("good Muslim") and Trente ("good Jew") would have no problems killing eachother if they had a chance.

If that is the case, then I am hardly a "good Jew". I am NOT radical as you present me in here.

LOL, i just read what you wrote in the thread about Iran and the missiles.

You ARE a radical, there is no doubt about it, you have presented your views several times, and every time you have presented radical views.

You have proclaimed your extremist views in a very personal way towards me, it is your belief but realize that it is ONLY your belief.

Other than that, heh, extremist muslim, jew, christian, who cares, all the same.

You have to realize that in Israel, people like me are not considered extreme, but moderate. If your country was facing so many threats, for such a long time, by so many countries and organizations, you would, too, take a bit more extreme POV than usual...

YHPM.

You have asked me to keep quiet about the wrongdoings of the Israel forces for the sake of Israel, all while you condemn other countries policies, you have even stated that YOU know how it feels to live in Germany as a Jew, but you obviously do not know, There are fewer anti-semites here in Germany than in pretty much any country around the world, other Jews in theis forum will attest to that too.

Things and times change, either we change with them or we are lost, life is not black and white, anti-semitism is more common in the US than in most countries in Europe these days, the days until the US has to give up it's one sided support for Israel are counted.

It isn't a matter of faith, it is a matter of change, the world is getting fed up with the constant protection of Israel or supporte for the Palestinians, the warfare to protect the hopeless cause for peace (which neither side seems to actually want) is wearing thin.

People say that SH was wrong because he gave money to terrorists families. Well, a few weeks ago a 16 year old suicide bombers family got their house destroyed, the pleaded and cried, they did not know what their son was going to do, still the IDF razed their house, their home, thankfully SA still provides money so these people can rebuild their house.

There is not one side who is right here, two sides who are wrong is what we're dealing with.

 

[Trente]

O.K. Klixxer, you have made your point. I just wish Israelis and Palestinians could live peacefuly but I can't see that happenning anytime soon.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Aimster
I disagree that women should cover up. It's pointless. In today's society you cannot go anywhere with that mentality. Let it start .... (Hey but I do respect them for believing in something like that, but I don't agree).

Please read Surah Noor. It contains clear cut injunctions from God. Let me provide a translation. Please remember, the translation is NOT the word of God.

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

For an in-depth look on the concept of Hijab, please read: Link

Hope this helps. If you require more detail, feel free to ask.

Gotta love that. Approval of slavery and eunics (how else would males be without vigor?) all in the same verse. How is anything that approves of slavery and castration going to get any sort of unanimous acceptance in any modern civilization without the use of force? It is about time Islam had a New Testament.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Aimster
So if it is not a word of God why must I believe in it?

I would suggest thinking about why something might be suggested. IIRC, you are a Muslim (correct me if I'm wrong). I am not, but I can still clearly see the merits of this idea. The lack of modesty in our own society I believe directly contributes to a number of greater failings. Overt sexuality really runs contrary to the idea of a civilized society. It attempts to appeal to baser instincts, causing actions that have negative consequences when these actions might much more easily be avoided if proper precautions were taken. I'm not saying I think that all women should be totally covered at all times, but that an increase in modesty in general would do everyone a lot of good.

I have a couple questions that I haven't readily been able to track down answers to.
1. Is it true that Muslims consider Jesus a prophet approximately equivalent to Mohammed?
2. Do Muslims believe that the God of Islam is the same God of Judaism and Christianity? If so, do Muslims believe in any portion of the Bible?
3. What is meant by statements in the Quran to the effect that there is a 'world of Islam' and a 'world of conquest'? (Sorry if this isn't exactly what it says, but I recall something in this vein that I couldn't figure out)

We could expand this thread to all religions. I'd be more than happy to answer questions about Catholicism.

If you want more modesty, become one of those men without vigor.

 

[tallest1]

Originally posted by: Condor
Gotta love that. Approval of slavery and eunics (how else would males be without vigor?) all in the same verse. How is anything that approves of slavery and castration going to get any sort of unanimous acceptance in any modern civilization without the use of force? It is about time Islam had a New Testament.

You think gunfire and bombs are instantly going to change a several thousand year old religion?

The key is in making these countries modern civilizations in the first place and providing them the ability to think critically of their beliefs. For example, if I remember right, there is some huge cultural progress being made in India. Of course, I would hope such a helping hand would not resemble the mess in Iraq right now.

 

[Bumrush99]

Sultan, what about the allegation by some that Mohammed was a pedophile and had sexual relations with a 9 year old girl? Thanks

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Trente
O.K. Klixxer, you have made your point. I just wish Israelis and Palestinians could live peacefuly but I can't see that happenning anytime soon.

I wish for that too, but unless the UN get's their act together (and this includes stopping the one sided support for Israel from the US and the one sided support from several European countries for the palestinian cause) and FORCE a solution i don't see that happening either.

The peaceful solution died with Rabin, at the hands of an extremist idiot, a murderer got to decide the future for Israel, it is sad.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Do Muslims believe that the Quran is a literal book - that everything in it should be taken at face value? Do different sects believe that it should be strictly literal while others see it differently?

Yes, Muslims believe the Quran is a literal word of God.

Which traditions and mores are taken literally from Muslim texts and which ones aren't?

For example, I understand that beards aren't explicitly mentioned anywhere...

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Sultan, what about the allegation by some that Mohammed was a pedophile and had sexual relations with a 9 year old girl? Thanks

The Prophet (S.A) married Hazrat Aisha (R.A), daughter of the closest of his friend Abu Bakr (R.A). The marriage had many implications. The Prophet (S.A) already was highly revered and already had other wives before marry Hazrat Aisha (R.A) and therefore the implication that this marriage was sexually motivated in false. Moreover, he could have his pick of women and neednt have married them if the motivation was such.

Additionally, one cannot determine the mental maturity of Hazrat Aisha (R.A) by simply claiming she was 9 years old. Evidence exists that she had at astounding recollection and memory, and a large volume of Sunnah and Hadith traditions have been quoted by her.

Often the facts are misconstrued by those who have extreme hatred for the religion of Islam, similar to some opponents of Christianity claiming Jesus had indulged in Mary Magdalene (?) and opponents of Judaism claiming Satan slept with Virgin Mary. The truth is far different.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Aimster
So if it is not a word of God why must I believe in it?

I would suggest thinking about why something might be suggested. IIRC, you are a Muslim (correct me if I'm wrong). I am not, but I can still clearly see the merits of this idea. The lack of modesty in our own society I believe directly contributes to a number of greater failings. Overt sexuality really runs contrary to the idea of a civilized society. It attempts to appeal to baser instincts, causing actions that have negative consequences when these actions might much more easily be avoided if proper precautions were taken. I'm not saying I think that all women should be totally covered at all times, but that an increase in modesty in general would do everyone a lot of good.

I have a couple questions that I haven't readily been able to track down answers to.
1. Is it true that Muslims consider Jesus a prophet approximately equivalent to Mohammed?
2. Do Muslims believe that the God of Islam is the same God of Judaism and Christianity? If so, do Muslims believe in any portion of the Bible?
3. What is meant by statements in the Quran to the effect that there is a 'world of Islam' and a 'world of conquest'? (Sorry if this isn't exactly what it says, but I recall something in this vein that I couldn't figure out)

We could expand this thread to all religions. I'd be more than happy to answer questions about Catholicism.

1. Welll...Technically Prophet Mohammed and Prophet Jesus are not just prophets, they are messengers. Prophets don't bring any "new" revalation. they just warn people and try to bring them back to the path of God, and the Hebrews easily had most of the prophets. In Arabic the word "prophet" is "nebee" and the word messenger is "resool". Messengers actually bring new revalation. But yes, Jesus is a Messenger and I would hold him as equal stature as Prophet Mohammed.

2. Yes. As for beleving in the portions of the Bible, Muslims because that the truth is contained within the Gospels, but that it has been tainted and peices lost. So the truth and revalation of God is there, bu t bits and peices~ not the whole stoory

3. You would have to refer to specific verses. I mean just now a "world of Islam" you could take it as the parts of the World with Islam, referring to Islam and the entire world, etc. etc. I see you are you trying to point out that the world will be forced to be Muslim or something like that, but I would see that analougous to something as in the Bible saying go preach the Gospel to all. As for "World of Conflict", where does this appear? I would have to see it in context~

And i can try to answer what i know- don't expect me to know all tho

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Do Muslims believe that the Quran is a literal book - that everything in it should be taken at face value? Do different sects believe that it should be strictly literal while others see it differently?

Yes, Muslims believe the Quran is a literal word of God.

Which traditions and mores are taken literally from Muslim texts and which ones aren't?

For example, I understand that beards aren't explicitly mentioned anywhere...

There are four sources of Islamic Law: Quran, Sunnah, Ijma, Qiyas (in order).

Sunnah/Hadith are the actions, words spoken by the Prophet (S.A) which expounds the teachings of the Quran and exemplifies the life of a proper Muslim. Since the Prophet (S.A) kept a beard, many Muslims choose to follow his example and do the same. It is not an obligatory act.

Other laws, for example, prohibition of alcohol is explicitly forbidden in the Quran.

If you wish clarifications of other examples, please feel free to ask.

 

[Sultan]

1. Welll...Technically Prophet Mohammed and Prophet Jesus are not just prophets, they are messengers. Prophets don't bring any "new" revalation. they just warn people and try to bring them back to the path of God, and the Hebrews easily had most of the prophets. In Arabic the word "prophet" is "nebee" and the word messenger is "resool". Messengers actually bring new revalation. But yes, Jesus is a Messenger and I would hold him as equal stature as Prophet Mohammed.

That is partially correct. According to the Quran, there have been 124000 rasools or messengers, of which 350 were nabis or Prophets. Both Jesus and Mohammed (S.A) are nabis.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Aimster
You're wrong. Anyone who reads this thread will think very low of Muslims if they read what Sultan says. Sultan's information makes Muslims look bad and if you want to defend his beliefs that is fine by me. I will not sit and have someone make my religion look bad. He can have beliefs fine, but he needs to stop spreading them because they are way over the top. It does not go along with what the normal Muslim believes in.

I am defending Muslims. I am defending myself. If I didn't say anything people in here would get the wrong information. Me and Sultan have been going at it for a long time now. Everyone here knows the issues and I doubt any of this is new to anyone.

What Sultan says about Islam pisses me off and I am Muslim. I will argue with him about this forever because this forum is full of people who have no idea about Islam. Reading what Sultan says about the religion will only make them hate Muslims more.

I am not the only Muslim to go against what Sultan has had to say.

Amazing that you can say "You're wrong" then tell me how I'm supposed to feel after reading this thread. This thread has actually had the exact opposite effect on me. I'm still waiting for you to contradict what he's said with evidence to support yourself.

As for what 'normal Muslims believe', I honestly don't care. If it's anything like Catholicism, the average member probably has no idea what his religion actually teaches, which is what this discussion is about. I care what Islam teaches, not what some of its members think. I'm not going to go ask Hitler what he thinks Christianity is, though he was purportedly Christian. Any religion will have its casual or dissident followers, but they do not determine the teachings of the religion itself. Only by evaluating the religion's teachings can I truly get a grasp of what Islam is all about. Like I said before, if you are really so opposed to the teachings of Islam, why do you continue to profess belief in it?

Teachings is about the way it is interpreted. Not everyone sees it the same way.

Hi Sultan, I have a question. According to Islam are homicide bombers ok? Is it acceptable for a muslim to strap a bomb to himself and then get on a bus with innocent men, women, and children and blow himself up, killing everyone on the bus?

:roll:

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Sultan, what about the allegation by some that Mohammed was a pedophile and had sexual relations with a 9 year old girl? Thanks

The Prophet (S.A) married Hazrat Aisha (R.A), daughter of the closest of his friend Abu Bakr (R.A). The marriage had many implications. The Prophet (S.A) already was highly revered and already had other wives before marry Hazrat Aisha (R.A) and therefore the implication that this marriage was sexually motivated in false. Moreover, he could have his pick of women and neednt have married them if the motivation was such.

Additionally, one cannot determine the mental maturity of Hazrat Aisha (R.A) by simply claiming she was 9 years old. Evidence exists that she had at astounding recollection and memory, and a large volume of Sunnah and Hadith traditions have been quoted by her.

Often the facts are misconstrued by those who have extreme hatred for the religion of Islam, similar to some opponents of Christianity claiming Jesus had indulged in Mary Magdalene (?) and opponents of Judaism claiming Satan slept with Virgin Mary. The truth is far different.

Let me see if i get this straight, Muhammed married a 9 year old girl but as she was mature for her (very young) age it is wrong to say that he did just what he did?

In fact you equate the truth about Muhammeds marriage to an outright lie about something in a different situation (Jesus sleeping with Maria Magdalena or satan sleeping with Maria the virgin)?

You are obviously lost and have nowhere to turn except that one road, the truth, the truth is that Jesus did not sleep with Maria Magdalena and Maria the virgin did not sleep with satan but your highest prophet married a child, no matter how mature you are at age 9 you are a child. IOW your highly regarded prophet was a pedophile.

Remind me again, what is the punishment for pedophilia according to the Koran?

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Sultan, what about the allegation by some that Mohammed was a pedophile and had sexual relations with a 9 year old girl? Thanks

The Prophet (S.A) married Hazrat Aisha (R.A), daughter of the closest of his friend Abu Bakr (R.A). The marriage had many implications. The Prophet (S.A) already was highly revered and already had other wives before marry Hazrat Aisha (R.A) and therefore the implication that this marriage was sexually motivated in false. Moreover, he could have his pick of women and neednt have married them if the motivation was such.

Additionally, one cannot determine the mental maturity of Hazrat Aisha (R.A) by simply claiming she was 9 years old. Evidence exists that she had at astounding recollection and memory, and a large volume of Sunnah and Hadith traditions have been quoted by her.

Often the facts are misconstrued by those who have extreme hatred for the religion of Islam, similar to some opponents of Christianity claiming Jesus had indulged in Mary Magdalene (?) and opponents of Judaism claiming Satan slept with Virgin Mary. The truth is far different.

Let me see if i get this straight, Muhammed married a 9 year old girl but as she was mature for her (very young) age it is wrong to say that he did just what he did?

In fact you equate the truth about Muhammeds marriage to an outright lie about something in a different situation (Jesus sleeping with Maria Magdalena or satan sleeping with Maria the virgin)?

You are obviously lost and have nowhere to turn except that one road, the truth, the truth is that Jesus did not sleep with Maria Magdalena and Maria the virgin did not sleep with satan but your highest prophet married a child, no matter how mature you are at age 9 you are a child. IOW your highly regarded prophet was a pedophile.

Remind me again, what is the punishment for pedophilia according to the Koran?

pulled off a website, enjoy reading:

http://bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/aishah.htm short version (not too short )
http://www.muslim-answers.org/aishah.htm longer

 

[0marTheZealot]

In regard to the investing question:

Don't do it. Usury is forbidden by law in the Qu'ran. As such, I do not invest nor do I take stock options that would violate this principle. I keep my money in euros, and not in a bank account, but merely rent space out in the bank to store my money. I do not let them give interest.

One can not disregard the injunctions set upon by God.

Also, in the Qu'ran, there are many hundreds of verses extolling the equalness of men and women. During the Prophet's (PBUH) time, many women were in employed and the chief merchant was a female. There is no precedent for not allowing women to work. In fact, the precedent is that women should work and be independant. However, it is a question of degree rather than kind.