The Islamic thread

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Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
What religion is responsible for genital mutilation - the Clitorectomy?

None. Clitorectomy is practiced in some African states as part of their culture and there is absolutely no Islamic religious ruling on this.

edit: None that I know off.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: judasmachine
Sultan,

I can't seem to find it, but isn't the story of Abraham and Isaac differant in Islam? I am referring to the part where the prophet proclaimed Ishmael the next prophet instead of Isaac, as it is protrayed in Christianity? Seems I remember hearing this a long time ago, and a friend who is a Baptist told me I was completely wrong.

I dont know, I am sorry. Both Abraham and Isaac are also considered prophets by Islam.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Aimster
Your belief on how women should cover up and how they are not allowed to interact with males is pure crap. I will give you one example of how you are pure crap. The Queen of Jordan. She lives in an Arab country and she does not cover up and she wears very appealing outfits.

I do not believe females are inferior to males, but I believe they are equal. Men are smart in their own way as are women.

How the hell can a Muslim with that thinking survive in the west? You will never get a job and if you do it will be a dead-end job. You will have a lack of communication and social issues because you were raised to believe that your sex is crap. You will never go out and you will always remain a prisoner. A prisoner to your own religion. All those women can be are housewives and nothing more. Slaves to their husbands.

What a crap life. That's not the way of Islam. That's the Sultan way.
I didn't realize being a housewife was so unfulfilling. Nor did I realize that one should worry more about how society views you than following your religion. I think you need to seriously reconsider these points, regardless of which of you is right. I have a very hard time with people who try to compartmentalize their religious beliefs and apply them only when they're in a religious setting - that's not the point of religion.

I'm not disrespecting women who could cover up. My girlfriend's grandmother wears a scarf. My dad's mom in Iran wears a scarf (by choice). To say that those women are not allowed to do things men can do is pure crap. They have every right to do what men can do. They are allowed to talk to men.

I was merly saying that if you want to put your head down and not give eye contact to a male that is beyond crazy. That has nothing to do with Islam. That is some man's view destroying a religion.

Women can cover up. They can go far in society. If they do what sultan says they will go nowhere.

There is nothing wrong with being a housewife, but that is all they will be forced to do if they go the Sultan way. I think a lot of women want to be more and have options instead of being a housewife. How can any of them get a job if they cannot talk to males? - according to Sultan.

I already mentioned women are allowed to talk to men and vice versa above. The Islamic ruling to lower gaze is given in the Quran by:

024.030
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

024.031
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

I would again ask Aimster to stop spreading misinformation.

And what did I suggest women do which will cause women to go no where?
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Aimster
Your belief on how women should cover up and how they are not allowed to interact with males is pure crap. I will give you one example of how you are pure crap. The Queen of Jordan. She lives in an Arab country and she does not cover up and she wears very appealing outfits.

I do not believe females are inferior to males, but I believe they are equal. Men are smart in their own way as are women.

How the hell can a Muslim with that thinking survive in the west? You will never get a job and if you do it will be a dead-end job. You will have a lack of communication and social issues because you were raised to believe that your sex is crap. You will never go out and you will always remain a prisoner. A prisoner to your own religion. All those women can be are housewives and nothing more. Slaves to their husbands.

What a crap life. That's not the way of Islam. That's the Sultan way.
I didn't realize being a housewife was so unfulfilling. Nor did I realize that one should worry more about how society views you than following your religion. I think you need to seriously reconsider these points, regardless of which of you is right. I have a very hard time with people who try to compartmentalize their religious beliefs and apply them only when they're in a religious setting - that's not the point of religion.

I'm not disrespecting women who could cover up. My girlfriend's grandmother wears a scarf. My dad's mom in Iran wears a scarf (by choice). To say that those women are not allowed to do things men can do is pure crap. They have every right to do what men can do. They are allowed to talk to men.

I was merly saying that if you want to put your head down and not give eye contact to a male that is beyond crazy. That has nothing to do with Islam. That is some man's view destroying a religion.

Women can cover up. They can go far in society. If they do what sultan says they will go nowhere.

There is nothing wrong with being a housewife, but that is all they will be forced to do if they go the Sultan way. I think a lot of women want to be more and have options instead of being a housewife. How can any of them get a job if they cannot talk to males? - according to Sultan.

I already mentioned women are allowed to talk to men and vice versa above. The Islamic ruling to lower gaze is given in the Quran by:

024.030
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

024.031
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

I would again ask Aimster to stop spreading misinformation.

And what did I suggest women do which will cause women to go no where?

You ask why people hate. Everything you say is the reason. Your mosque needs to get their act in check.
I'm not spreading misinformation. I'm spreading good and the truth that many people accept.

Your version of Islam is on the same level as Osama and he saw the west and he hated it for what it was.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Aimster
Your belief on how women should cover up and how they are not allowed to interact with males is pure crap. I will give you one example of how you are pure crap. The Queen of Jordan. She lives in an Arab country and she does not cover up and she wears very appealing outfits.

I do not believe females are inferior to males, but I believe they are equal. Men are smart in their own way as are women.

How the hell can a Muslim with that thinking survive in the west? You will never get a job and if you do it will be a dead-end job. You will have a lack of communication and social issues because you were raised to believe that your sex is crap. You will never go out and you will always remain a prisoner. A prisoner to your own religion. All those women can be are housewives and nothing more. Slaves to their husbands.

What a crap life. That's not the way of Islam. That's the Sultan way.
I didn't realize being a housewife was so unfulfilling. Nor did I realize that one should worry more about how society views you than following your religion. I think you need to seriously reconsider these points, regardless of which of you is right. I have a very hard time with people who try to compartmentalize their religious beliefs and apply them only when they're in a religious setting - that's not the point of religion.

I'm not disrespecting women who could cover up. My girlfriend's grandmother wears a scarf. My dad's mom in Iran wears a scarf (by choice). To say that those women are not allowed to do things men can do is pure crap. They have every right to do what men can do. They are allowed to talk to men.

I was merly saying that if you want to put your head down and not give eye contact to a male that is beyond crazy. That has nothing to do with Islam. That is some man's view destroying a religion.

Women can cover up. They can go far in society. If they do what sultan says they will go nowhere.

There is nothing wrong with being a housewife, but that is all they will be forced to do if they go the Sultan way. I think a lot of women want to be more and have options instead of being a housewife. How can any of them get a job if they cannot talk to males? - according to Sultan.

I already mentioned women are allowed to talk to men and vice versa above. The Islamic ruling to lower gaze is given in the Quran by:

024.030
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

024.031
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

I would again ask Aimster to stop spreading misinformation.

And what did I suggest women do which will cause women to go no where?

You ask why people hate. Everything you say is the reason. Your mosque needs to get their act in check.
I'm not spreading misinformation. I'm spreading good and the truth that many people accept.

Your version of Islam is on the same level as Osama and he saw the west and he hated it for what it was.

I see how a supposed Muslim turns Quranic injucntions into reasons of hate. :)
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Aimster
You ask why people hate. Everything you say is the reason. Your mosque needs to get their act in check.
I'm not spreading misinformation. I'm spreading good and the truth that many people accept.

Your version of Islam is on the same level as Osama and he saw the west and he hated it for what it was.
That's completely out of line. Nothing he's mentioned has anything to do with hatred and he appears much more able to back up what he says than you are. Personally, I find it admirable that people still respect their religion to the extent that many Muslims do. I am greatly saddened by the fact that most Christians are Christian in name only and think the religion itself is crap or do not abide by its principles. Even if you disagree completely with a religion or religion in general, certainly people would do well to live by the principles engendered by religion in general. Instead, people push them aside and want to do whatever they please and damn the consequences. Other nations must look at this and shake their heads. Morality is something to be aspired towards, not shunned, nor should morality be relative to the time in which we live.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Sultan
I would again ask Aimster to stop spreading misinformation.

And what did I suggest women do which will cause women to go no where?

You ask why people hate. Everything you say is the reason. Your mosque needs to get their act in check.
I'm not spreading misinformation. I'm spreading good and the truth that many people accept.

Your version of Islam is on the same level as Osama and he saw the west and he hated it for what it was.

:thumbsup:

Thank god for people like Aimster in this forum trying to right all of the wrongs that Sultan acts upon.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Aimster
You ask why people hate. Everything you say is the reason. Your mosque needs to get their act in check.
I'm not spreading misinformation. I'm spreading good and the truth that many people accept.

Your version of Islam is on the same level as Osama and he saw the west and he hated it for what it was.
That's completely out of line. Nothing he's mentioned has anything to do with hatred and he appears much more able to back up what he says than you are. Personally, I find it admirable that people still respect their religion to the extent that many Muslims do. I am greatly saddened by the fact that most Christians are Christian in name only and think the religion itself is crap or do not abide by its principles. Even if you disagree completely with a religion or religion in general, certainly people would do well to live by the principles engendered by religion in general. Instead, people push them aside and want to do whatever they please and damn the consequences. Other nations must look at this and shake their heads. Morality is something to be aspired towards, not shunned, nor should morality be relative to the time in which we live.

Thank you for your vote of confidence. With people like Rabid in this forum, I find it hard to find a sane post :)
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Aimster
You ask why people hate. Everything you say is the reason. Your mosque needs to get their act in check.
I'm not spreading misinformation. I'm spreading good and the truth that many people accept.

Your version of Islam is on the same level as Osama and he saw the west and he hated it for what it was.
That's completely out of line. Nothing he's mentioned has anything to do with hatred and he appears much more able to back up what he says than you are. Personally, I find it admirable that people still respect their religion to the extent that many Muslims do. I am greatly saddened by the fact that most Christians are Christian in name only and think the religion itself is crap or do not abide by its principles. Even if you disagree completely with a religion or religion in general, certainly people would do well to live by the principles engendered by religion in general. Instead, people push them aside and want to do whatever they please and damn the consequences. Other nations must look at this and shake their heads. Morality is something to be aspired towards, not shunned, nor should morality be relative to the time in which we live.

I don't think Sultan is a terrorist. If I did I would have called the FBI. I disagree with his views highly.

1) He believes stonning his son/daugther to death if they were to have had an affair.
2) He believes non-Muslims need to be taxed for their protection
3) He believes women should cover modestly and men should too. (No arguement his belief). However, he believes women should never look directly at a man and therefore appear weak. I have no problem with women covering. I have a problem with women being treated like they are second to men.
4) He thinks the Taliban regime was good for Afghanistan, yet Afghans were so happy once they were gone.

There is more...

I don't think I need to back that up. Does anyone here wish me to back why those things are wrong? I don't think so. Sultan can back whatever he wants up. His version of Islam is extreme and highly dangerous.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Aimster
You ask why people hate. Everything you say is the reason. Your mosque needs to get their act in check.
I'm not spreading misinformation. I'm spreading good and the truth that many people accept.

Your version of Islam is on the same level as Osama and he saw the west and he hated it for what it was.
That's completely out of line. Nothing he's mentioned has anything to do with hatred and he appears much more able to back up what he says than you are. Personally, I find it admirable that people still respect their religion to the extent that many Muslims do. I am greatly saddened by the fact that most Christians are Christian in name only and think the religion itself is crap or do not abide by its principles. Even if you disagree completely with a religion or religion in general, certainly people would do well to live by the principles engendered by religion in general. Instead, people push them aside and want to do whatever they please and damn the consequences. Other nations must look at this and shake their heads. Morality is something to be aspired towards, not shunned, nor should morality be relative to the time in which we live.

I don't think Sultan is a terrorist. If I did I would have called the FBI. I disagree with his views highly.

1) He believes stonning his son/daugther to death if they were to have had an affair.
2) He believes non-Muslims need to be taxed for their protection
3) He believes women should cover modestly and men should too. (No arguement his belief). However, he believes woman should never look directly at a man and therefore appear weak. I have no problem with women covering. I have a problem with women being treated like they are second to men.
4) He thinks the Taliban regime was good for Afghanistan, yet Afghans were so happy once they were gone.

There is more...

Let me correct you on your misinformed views once again.
1) Islam prescribes the death penalty for an adulteror/adulteress and 100 lashes to a fornicator/fornicatress. If any person including my son/daughter is found guilty of the crime by an Islamic court in an Islamic state, I believe the person should be punished. Thats why we have laws.
2) Jizyah is the form of taxation of non-Muslims as Zakat is the form of taxation on Muslims. Zakat is mandated by religion, and since non-Muslims are not obligated to pay Zakat, they pay Jizyah.
3) Both women AND men should not look directly at the other. The Quran has injunctions for BOTH males and females to lower their gaze. I have posted the verses' translations above.
4) I think the media painted an incorrect picture of the Taliban and they were not as bad as the West perceived it to be. That is a far cry from saying they were good for Afghanistan. I count their destroying the poppy fields as a massive achievement. Additionally, many Afghans supported the Taliban. Here's a link: BBC Link
The Taleban's popularity with many Afghans initially surprised the country's warring mujahedin factions.
This last point has no relevance in this thread :)
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Aimster
I don't think Sultan is a terrorist. If I did I would have called the FBI. I disagree with his views highly.

1) He believes stonning his son/daugther to death if they were to have had an affair.
2) He believes non-Muslims need to be taxed for their protection
3) He believes women should cover modestly and men should too. (No arguement his belief). However, he believes women should never look directly at a man and therefore appear weak. I have no problem with women covering. I have a problem with women being treated like they are second to men.
4) He thinks the Taliban regime was good for Afghanistan, yet Afghans were so happy once they were gone.

There is more...

I don't think I need to back that up. Does anyone here wish me to back why those things are wrong? I don't think so. Sultan can back whatever he wants up. His version of Islam is extreme and highly dangerous.
Here is my problem with this post and your method of operation in this entire thread: you are feigning civility and decrying what you perceive as his lack of civility when the exact opposite is true. If you want to debate with him on the things you just listed, feel free to do so. However, to this point you didn't even mention any of them and are just now busting them out in an attempt to justify your last post, since it was unjustifiable.

So, if you want to discuss why you differ on Islam, try posting something from the Quran or actually discussing an idea instead of trying to personally attack Sultan. This thread isn't what you personally believe, it's what Islam teaches. If you disagree with the teachings of Islam, maybe you shouldn't be a Muslim. If you agree with them, tell us why and post something to support that your views actually coincide with the views of Islam in general.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Aimster
I don't think Sultan is a terrorist. If I did I would have called the FBI. I disagree with his views highly.

1) He believes stonning his son/daugther to death if they were to have had an affair.
2) He believes non-Muslims need to be taxed for their protection
3) He believes women should cover modestly and men should too. (No arguement his belief). However, he believes women should never look directly at a man and therefore appear weak. I have no problem with women covering. I have a problem with women being treated like they are second to men.
4) He thinks the Taliban regime was good for Afghanistan, yet Afghans were so happy once they were gone.

There is more...

I don't think I need to back that up. Does anyone here wish me to back why those things are wrong? I don't think so. Sultan can back whatever he wants up. His version of Islam is extreme and highly dangerous.
Here is my problem with this post and your method of operation in this entire thread: you are feigning civility and decrying what you perceive as his lack of civility when the exact opposite is true. If you want to debate with him on the things you just listed, feel free to do so. However, to this point you didn't even mention any of them and are just now busting them out in an attempt to justify your last post, since it was unjustifiable.

So, if you want to discuss why you differ on Islam, try posting something from the Quran or actually discussing an idea instead of trying to personally attack Sultan. This thread isn't what you personally believe, it's what Islam teaches. If you disagree with the teachings of Islam, maybe you shouldn't be a Muslim. If you agree with them, tell us why and post something to support that your views actually coincide with the views of Islam in general.

You're wrong. Anyone who reads this thread will think very low of Muslims if they read what Sultan says. Sultan's information makes Muslims look bad and if you want to defend his beliefs that is fine by me. I will not sit and have someone make my religion look bad. He can have beliefs fine, but he needs to stop spreading them because they are way over the top. It does not go along with what the normal Muslim believes in.

I am defending Muslims. I am defending myself. If I didn't say anything people in here would get the wrong information. Me and Sultan have been going at it for a long time now. Everyone here knows the issues and I doubt any of this is new to anyone.

What Sultan says about Islam pisses me off and I am Muslim. I will argue with him about this forever because this forum is full of people who have no idea about Islam. Reading what Sultan says about the religion will only make them hate Muslims more.

I am not the only Muslim to go against what Sultan has had to say.

 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
How can you invest in a company's stock, effectively becoming part-owner of a company, and knowingly realize that the company profits off of non-Islamic means such as interest, etc? Scholars clearly state that entering into business while knowing your partners are doing this is clearly wrong. It seems to me that you pick and choosing your beliefs in Islam. You seem to be disregarding the beliefs that prevent you from making money, and deciding to believe in what oppresses others.

Also, why do non-Muslims have to pay the mafia tax if they don't believe in Islam? Why do you want to force your religion upon them?
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
How can you invest in a company's stock, effectively becoming part-owner of a company, and knowingly realize that the company profits off of non-Islamic means such as interest, etc? Scholars clearly state that entering into business while knowing your partners are doing this is clearly wrong. It seems to me that you pick and choosing your beliefs in Islam. You seem to be disregarding the beliefs that prevent you from making money, and deciding to believe in what oppresses others.

Also, why do non-Muslims have to pay the mafia tax if they don't believe in Islam? Why do you want to force your religion upon them?

You invest in stocks as guided by the scholars to be safe for investing the Islamic way. According to Islam, you cannot invest in a company which profits off non-Islamic means such as interest.

I answered the second question above as a reply to Aimster's post.

Hope this helps
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
How can you invest in a company's stock, effectively becoming part-owner of a company, and knowingly realize that the company profits off of non-Islamic means such as interest, etc? Scholars clearly state that entering into business while knowing your partners are doing this is clearly wrong. It seems to me that you pick and choosing your beliefs in Islam. You seem to be disregarding the beliefs that prevent you from making money, and deciding to believe in what oppresses others.

Also, why do non-Muslims have to pay the mafia tax if they don't believe in Islam? Why do you want to force your religion upon them?

You invest in stocks as guided by the scholars to be safe for investing the Islamic way. According to Islam, you cannot invest in a company which profits off non-Islamic means such as interest.

I answered the second question above as a reply to Aimster's post.

Hope this helps

In Off Topic you were talking about stock in companies (you were even trying to create an 'official' stock market thread) that profit off of non-Islamic means. You stated that you purchased stock in one company and were thinking about purchasing stock in AMD (I believe). How did you go around it to make it ok to invest in them? (btw, it seems that you have somewhat reversed your beliefs in our last conversation since you kept refuting my claim about Islamic scholars and their guidance regarding the stock market).

As for the second question, you didn't answer it in your reply to Aimster's post. In your reply to him, you simply stated what it was. I'm asking why you have to force minorities in paying the tax when it is a religious belief of Islam and they are not Muslims.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
In Off Topic you were talking about stock in companies (you were even trying to create an 'official' stock market thread) that profit off of non-Islamic means. You stated that you purchased stock in one company and were thinking about purchasing stock in AMD (I believe). How did you go around it to make it ok to invest in them? (btw, it seems that you have somewhat reversed your beliefs in our last conversation since you kept refuting my claim about Islamic scholars and their guidance regarding the stock market).

As for the second question, you didn't answer it in your reply to Aimster's post. In your reply to him, you simply stated what it was. I'm asking why you have to force minorities in paying the tax when it is a religious belief of Islam and they are not Muslims.

I dont see the relevance of my buying stocks to the Islamic ruling on whether one can invest in stocks or not. I agreed with you when you posted the link regarding the Islamic scholars saying which stocks can or cannot be purchased. I do not own AMD stocks. I believe I am in line with the Islamic ruling on purchase of stocks.

I cannot force anyone to pay taxes. As I have stated before as well, the Islamic government collects taxes, from Muslims as well as non-Muslims. Zakat is a religious tax and non-Muslims do not have to pay as such. Jizyah is the Arabic term given to the collection of taxes from non-Muslim. You can call it income tax if you like. No one is FORCED to pay taxes, neither Muslim nor non-Muslim. They can choose not to pay tax, but if they dont, it will be a criminal offense and the tax collection department, like the IRS, will proceed to take action against the individual.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Aimster
You're wrong. Anyone who reads this thread will think very low of Muslims if they read what Sultan says. Sultan's information makes Muslims look bad and if you want to defend his beliefs that is fine by me. I will not sit and have someone make my religion look bad. He can have beliefs fine, but he needs to stop spreading them because they are way over the top. It does not go along with what the normal Muslim believes in.

I am defending Muslims. I am defending myself. If I didn't say anything people in here would get the wrong information. Me and Sultan have been going at it for a long time now. Everyone here knows the issues and I doubt any of this is new to anyone.

What Sultan says about Islam pisses me off and I am Muslim. I will argue with him about this forever because this forum is full of people who have no idea about Islam. Reading what Sultan says about the religion will only make them hate Muslims more.

I am not the only Muslim to go against what Sultan has had to say.
Amazing that you can say "You're wrong" then tell me how I'm supposed to feel after reading this thread. This thread has actually had the exact opposite effect on me. I'm still waiting for you to contradict what he's said with evidence to support yourself.

As for what 'normal Muslims believe', I honestly don't care. If it's anything like Catholicism, the average member probably has no idea what his religion actually teaches, which is what this discussion is about. I care what Islam teaches, not what some of its members think. I'm not going to go ask Hitler what he thinks Christianity is, though he was purportedly Christian. Any religion will have its casual or dissident followers, but they do not determine the teachings of the religion itself. Only by evaluating the religion's teachings can I truly get a grasp of what Islam is all about. Like I said before, if you are really so opposed to the teachings of Islam, why do you continue to profess belief in it?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Sultan
In Off Topic you were talking about stock in companies (you were even trying to create an 'official' stock market thread) that profit off of non-Islamic means. You stated that you purchased stock in one company and were thinking about purchasing stock in AMD (I believe). How did you go around it to make it ok to invest in them? (btw, it seems that you have somewhat reversed your beliefs in our last conversation since you kept refuting my claim about Islamic scholars and their guidance regarding the stock market).

As for the second question, you didn't answer it in your reply to Aimster's post. In your reply to him, you simply stated what it was. I'm asking why you have to force minorities in paying the tax when it is a religious belief of Islam and they are not Muslims.

I dont see the relevance of my buying stocks to the Islamic ruling on whether one can invest in stocks or not. I agreed with you when you posted the link regarding the Islamic scholars saying which stocks can or cannot be purchased. I do not own AMD stocks. I believe I am in line with the Islamic ruling on purchase of stocks.

So, is the company you invest in one of the 'safe' companies? I'm not even Muslim, but it's clearly stated by most scholars that you must 'relax' Islam if you want to invest in most companies.

I cannot force anyone to pay taxes. As I have stated before as well, the Islamic government collects taxes, from Muslims as well as non-Muslims. Zakat is a religious tax and non-Muslims do not have to pay as such. Jizyah is the Arabic term given to the collection of taxes from non-Muslim. You can call it income tax if you like. No one is FORCED to pay taxes, neither Muslim nor non-Muslim. They can choose not to pay tax, but if they dont, it will be a criminal offense and the tax collection department, like the IRS, will proceed to take action against the individual.

So, is Jizyah an Islamic thing or not?
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
1) And do not kill your children out of fear of poverty; We shall provide for them and for you. Truly, the killing of them is a great sin. (17:31) ...When the female child who was buried alive is asked for what crime she was killed. (81:8-9)
...That they will not steal nor commit zina nor kill their children....(60:12)

I can rape your wife, kill your family and you have no right to murder me according to the rules of the Quran. My punishment will be received when I leave this life. This life is a test for Muslims and by killing another soul you are failing the test.

2) Taxes in Islam : Zakart : Almsgiving; one of the five "pillars" of Islam. Muslims who have wealth remaining over the year must pay a certain percentage to aid those in need. While it can be paid anytime during the year, many people prefer to pay it during Ramadan. 2.5%.

3) It doesn't say in the Quran women should cover up. It says women should dress modestly. You can take that for whatever you want and twist it around like Sultan has.

Hijab (head cover) for Muslim women is not mandated in the Qur?an. If it is, it is only the subjective interpretation of an ayah (verse) on the part of the reader.

4) Taliban good for Afghanistan? 1) Women were forced to wear Burqua, Women could not go anywhere without male supervision 3) Women were stoned to death without a trial (for swearing!), Women were kidnapped from their homes and married off to Taliban. Women were not allowed to talk to any males except for their husband/brother/father.

 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Do Muslims believe that the Quran is a literal book - that everything in it should be taken at face value? Do different sects believe that it should be strictly literal while others see it differently?
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
6,149
0
0
What i find highly amusing is that Aimster ("bad Muslim") and me ("bad Jew") get along just fine while people like Sultan ("good Muslim") and Trente ("good Jew") would have no problems killing eachother if they had a chance.

Think about that for a moment, the good ones are for the killing and destruction and the bad ones are freindly towards one another.

Good=violence and pain and bad=friendly and tolerant?

THAT is what is wrong with the fundamentalists, and it is NOT limited to Islam.

Cyclo is another example, to a lesser degree but still, he wants not only to follow his own morals, he wants EVERYONE to be forced, by law, to follow his moral values.

What is wrong with society today is not that women and men have no morals, it is that sad people, like Cyclo and Sultan have problems accepting that their morals are THEIR morals and not anyone elses.

:thumbsup: to Aimster for being a "bad Muslim". :)
 

Trente

Golden Member
Apr 19, 2003
1,750
0
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Originally posted by: Klixxer
What i find highly amusing is that Aimster ("bad Muslim") and me ("bad Jew") get along just fine while people like Sultan ("good Muslim") and Trente ("good Jew") would have no problems killing eachother if they had a chance.


If that is the case, then I am hardly a "good Jew". I am NOT radical as you present me in here.