The Islamic thread

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CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Aimster
So if it is not a word of God why must I believe in it?
I would suggest thinking about why something might be suggested. IIRC, you are a Muslim (correct me if I'm wrong). I am not, but I can still clearly see the merits of this idea. The lack of modesty in our own society I believe directly contributes to a number of greater failings. Overt sexuality really runs contrary to the idea of a civilized society. It attempts to appeal to baser instincts, causing actions that have negative consequences when these actions might much more easily be avoided if proper precautions were taken. I'm not saying I think that all women should be totally covered at all times, but that an increase in modesty in general would do everyone a lot of good.

I have a couple questions that I haven't readily been able to track down answers to.
1. Is it true that Muslims consider Jesus a prophet approximately equivalent to Mohammed?
2. Do Muslims believe that the God of Islam is the same God of Judaism and Christianity? If so, do Muslims believe in any portion of the Bible?
3. What is meant by statements in the Quran to the effect that there is a 'world of Islam' and a 'world of conquest'? (Sorry if this isn't exactly what it says, but I recall something in this vein that I couldn't figure out)

We could expand this thread to all religions. I'd be more than happy to answer questions about Catholicism.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Sultan
Contact with a non-related male for a Muslim woman is prohibited, as is the contact between a Muslim male with a non-related woman is prohibited. If you would like more information regarding the term "Mehram", please feel free to ask.
Sure. Can I get more information regarding the term "Mehram?" :)

bomberman how religious is this girl? Mehram is for when you want to ask for her hand otherwise you are forbidden to talk to her, .. well according to Sultan.

How are you supposed to 'ask for her hand' if you're not allowed to talk to her?
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Sultan
Contact with a non-related male for a Muslim woman is prohibited, as is the contact between a Muslim male with a non-related woman is prohibited. If you would like more information regarding the term "Mehram", please feel free to ask.
Sure. Can I get more information regarding the term "Mehram?" :)

bomberman how religious is this girl? Mehram is for when you want to ask for her hand otherwise you are forbidden to talk to her, .. well according to Sultan.

How are you supposed to 'ask for her hand' if you're not allowed to talk to her?

I think Sultan is talking about arranged marriage. This is pure crap. I know women that wear a scarf. They talk to guys. They just don't touch them. I have no idea what Sultan is talking about.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: StormRider
What was so bad about the book Satanic Verse that caused Salman Rusdie to get death threats for? I never read the book so I'm just curious what about it was so bad.

I dont have much knowledge about this subject. Many countries of Muslim majority have "blasphemy laws". I am not sure about the Islamic Law dictating this, therefore I cannot comment. Someone else may be able to help you with this.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,471
1
81
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Sultan
Contact with a non-related male for a Muslim woman is prohibited, as is the contact between a Muslim male with a non-related woman is prohibited. If you would like more information regarding the term "Mehram", please feel free to ask.
Sure. Can I get more information regarding the term "Mehram?" :)
bomberman how religious is this girl? Mehram is for when you want to ask for her hand otherwise you are forbidden to talk to her, .. well according to Sultan.
I should start using the term "woman" because we're both pretty old but our relationship is strictly platonic.

As for how religious she is, I wouldn't know how to gauge it. Of the behavior that she's attributed to religion, she doesn't eat pork, doesn't drink alcohol, and is against pre-marital sex. However, she doesn't wear hijab nor fast during Ramadan.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Ladies and gentlemen. Muslim women are allowed to talk to men. Those that want to hide can become housewives and go nowhere in today's society.

That's all. Sorry, but this is making Islam look horrible and I'm defending it.

By the way the reason people hate Islam is because of how they treat women. (one of the reasons). You answered your own ?

Aimster is right. Muslim women can talk to Muslim males. However, under religious laws, it must be done behind a veil or in circumstances where they do not look at each other. This means that a Muslim or a Muslimah of strong virtue keeps his/her gaze lowered while talking to the opposite gender. Moreover, the conversation should be limited to the subject in question.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Sultan
Contact with a non-related male for a Muslim woman is prohibited, as is the contact between a Muslim male with a non-related woman is prohibited. If you would like more information regarding the term "Mehram", please feel free to ask.
Sure. Can I get more information regarding the term "Mehram?" :)
bomberman how religious is this girl? Mehram is for when you want to ask for her hand otherwise you are forbidden to talk to her, .. well according to Sultan.
I should start using the term "woman" because we're both pretty old but our relationship is strictly platonic.

As for how religious she is, I wouldn't know how to gauge it. Of the behavior that she's attributed to religion, she doesn't eat pork, doesn't drink alcohol, and is against pre-marital sex. However, she doesn't wear the hijab nor fast during Ramadan.

Lots of Muslims don't eat pork, drink, and don't have sex before marriage (my girlfriend is one).

If she doesn't wear a hijab and doesn't fast during Ramadan you don't need to do Mehran. Mehram is for those Muslims who cover up and live their life by the book.

I like this woman.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Sultan
Contact with a non-related male for a Muslim woman is prohibited, as is the contact between a Muslim male with a non-related woman is prohibited. If you would like more information regarding the term "Mehram", please feel free to ask.
Sure. Can I get more information regarding the term "Mehram?" :)

A Mehram in a nutshell would be a person you cannot marry. If you are a male, that would be your mother, your sister, daughter-in-law, mother-in-law, etc. For a female, the mehram would be the relatives listed above in my post of Surah Noor's translation. Hope this helps.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Aimster
I disagree that women should cover up. It's pointless. In today's society you cannot go anywhere with that mentality. Let it start .... (Hey but I do respect them for believing in something like that, but I don't agree).

then stay away from saudi arabia they are all covered up. can't drive or work...they can't even eat in the same side of the restuant with men. This is our greatest ally in ME.

As I requested, please do not mix religious teachings with a particular counties culture and tradition.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: Aimster
Ladies and gentlemen. Muslim women are allowed to talk to men. Those that want to hide can become housewives and go nowhere in today's society.

That's all. Sorry, but this is making Islam look horrible and I'm defending it.

By the way the reason people hate Islam is because of how they treat women. (one of the reasons). You answered your own ?

Aimster is right. Muslim women can talk to Muslim males. However, under religious laws, it must be done behind a veil or in circumstances where they do not look at each other. This means that a Muslim or a Muslimah of strong virtue keeps his/her gaze lowered while talking to the opposite gender. Moreover, the conversation should be limited to the subject in question.

Can I ask you something Sultan? Where did you learn about Islam?
If you truely believe this then I do not see how these women can survive in society.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: StormRider
What was so bad about the book Satanic Verse that caused Salman Rusdie to get death threats for? I never read the book so I'm just curious what about it was so bad.

Hi, I believe it was due to his supposed characterization of Muhammad and supposedly abandoning Islam...it was labeled blasphemous or some such.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Aimster
So if it is not a word of God why must I believe in it?
I would suggest thinking about why something might be suggested. IIRC, you are a Muslim (correct me if I'm wrong). I am not, but I can still clearly see the merits of this idea. The lack of modesty in our own society I believe directly contributes to a number of greater failings. Overt sexuality really runs contrary to the idea of a civilized society. It attempts to appeal to baser instincts, causing actions that have negative consequences when these actions might much more easily be avoided if proper precautions were taken. I'm not saying I think that all women should be totally covered at all times, but that an increase in modesty in general would do everyone a lot of good.

I have a couple questions that I haven't readily been able to track down answers to.
1. Is it true that Muslims consider Jesus a prophet approximately equivalent to Mohammed?
2. Do Muslims believe that the God of Islam is the same God of Judaism and Christianity? If so, do Muslims believe in any portion of the Bible?
3. What is meant by statements in the Quran to the effect that there is a 'world of Islam' and a 'world of conquest'? (Sorry if this isn't exactly what it says, but I recall something in this vein that I couldn't figure out)

We could expand this thread to all religions. I'd be more than happy to answer questions about Catholicism.

1. Yes, Muslims consider Jesus a Prophet of Islam, the second most important after Mohammed (S.A).
2. Yes to the first question. Second question, Muslims believe the Bible was a Holy book which was corrupted. Even a large number of Christians do not believe the Bible in its current form is the literal word of God.
3. I dont have a clue :)
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Sultan
Contact with a non-related male for a Muslim woman is prohibited, as is the contact between a Muslim male with a non-related woman is prohibited. If you would like more information regarding the term "Mehram", please feel free to ask.
Sure. Can I get more information regarding the term "Mehram?" :)

bomberman how religious is this girl? Mehram is for when you want to ask for her hand otherwise you are forbidden to talk to her, .. well according to Sultan.

How are you supposed to 'ask for her hand' if you're not allowed to talk to her?

When you "ask for her hand", you can speak with her, in the presence of the family.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Sultan
Contact with a non-related male for a Muslim woman is prohibited, as is the contact between a Muslim male with a non-related woman is prohibited. If you would like more information regarding the term "Mehram", please feel free to ask.
Sure. Can I get more information regarding the term "Mehram?" :)

bomberman how religious is this girl? Mehram is for when you want to ask for her hand otherwise you are forbidden to talk to her, .. well according to Sultan.

How are you supposed to 'ask for her hand' if you're not allowed to talk to her?

I think Sultan is talking about arranged marriage. This is pure crap. I know women that wear a scarf. They talk to guys. They just don't touch them. I have no idea what Sultan is talking about.

No, I was not talking about arranged marriage. Please do not confuse actions of people with the teachings of Islam.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,471
1
81
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: StormRider
What was so bad about the book Satanic Verse that caused Salman Rusdie to get death threats for? I never read the book so I'm just curious what about it was so bad.

Hi, I believe it was due to his supposed characterization of Muhammad and supposedly abandoning Islam...it was labeled blasphemous or some such.
Wikipedia has a pretty good history on it though I won't make any claims as to its accuracy - Link
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Sultan
Contact with a non-related male for a Muslim woman is prohibited, as is the contact between a Muslim male with a non-related woman is prohibited. If you would like more information regarding the term "Mehram", please feel free to ask.
Sure. Can I get more information regarding the term "Mehram?" :)
bomberman how religious is this girl? Mehram is for when you want to ask for her hand otherwise you are forbidden to talk to her, .. well according to Sultan.
I should start using the term "woman" because we're both pretty old but our relationship is strictly platonic.

As for how religious she is, I wouldn't know how to gauge it. Of the behavior that she's attributed to religion, she doesn't eat pork, doesn't drink alcohol, and is against pre-marital sex. However, she doesn't wear the hijab nor fast during Ramadan.

Lots of Muslims don't eat pork, drink, and don't have sex before marriage (my girlfriend is one).

If she doesn't wear a hijab and doesn't fast during Ramadan you don't need to do Mehran. Mehram is for those Muslims who cover up and live their life by the book.

I like this woman.

According to Islam, meat of pigs/swine is prohibited as is alcohol, as is pre-marital/extra-marital sex.

The concept of Mehram that Aimster is describing is incorrect. I would really appreciate it if Aimster would stop spreading misinformation. Please dont take offense. One doesnt "DO" Mehram. I described the term Mehram above.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Everyone on this form. Sultan believes women = dogs. I guarantee you if a covered woman who is Muslim gets a chance to express her views she would bash Sultan. Women cover up because they feel protected from the stares of men because they do not see a reason to date/fool around. That's it. They engage in social activities and such. They just do not date. They are friends with someone first and if they are interested they get engaged. That's how it works. I have no idea what Sultan is suggesting, but I promise you it is wrong.

It is sad that we do not have anyone who wears a scarf on anandtech who could tell you how wrong Sultan is.

Believe me he is wrong.

 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: Aimster
Ladies and gentlemen. Muslim women are allowed to talk to men. Those that want to hide can become housewives and go nowhere in today's society.

That's all. Sorry, but this is making Islam look horrible and I'm defending it.

By the way the reason people hate Islam is because of how they treat women. (one of the reasons). You answered your own ?

Aimster is right. Muslim women can talk to Muslim males. However, under religious laws, it must be done behind a veil or in circumstances where they do not look at each other. This means that a Muslim or a Muslimah of strong virtue keeps his/her gaze lowered while talking to the opposite gender. Moreover, the conversation should be limited to the subject in question.

Can I ask you something Sultan? Where did you learn about Islam?
If you truely believe this then I do not see how these women can survive in society.

I believe you are quite into this issue about women's discrimination in Islam which is false. If you read my post again, you will note that both females AND males have the same condition. I dont see how men can survive and women cannot in society if they adhere to the Islamic principles. Do you believe females are inferior to males?
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: Aimster
Ladies and gentlemen. Muslim women are allowed to talk to men. Those that want to hide can become housewives and go nowhere in today's society.

That's all. Sorry, but this is making Islam look horrible and I'm defending it.

By the way the reason people hate Islam is because of how they treat women. (one of the reasons). You answered your own ?

Aimster is right. Muslim women can talk to Muslim males. However, under religious laws, it must be done behind a veil or in circumstances where they do not look at each other. This means that a Muslim or a Muslimah of strong virtue keeps his/her gaze lowered while talking to the opposite gender. Moreover, the conversation should be limited to the subject in question.

Can I ask you something Sultan? Where did you learn about Islam?
If you truely believe this then I do not see how these women can survive in society.

I believe you are quite into this issue about women's discrimination in Islam which is false. If you read my post again, you will note that both females AND males have the same condition. I dont see how men can survive and women cannot in society if they adhere to the Islamic principles. Do you believe females are inferior to males?

Your belief on how women should cover up and how they are not allowed to interact with males is pure crap. I will give you one example of how you are pure crap. The Queen of Jordan. She lives in an Arab country and she does not cover up and she wears very appealing outfits.

I do not believe females are inferior to males, but I believe they are equal. Men are smart in their own way as are women.

How the hell can a Muslim with that thinking survive in the west? You will never get a job and if you do it will be a dead-end job. You will have a lack of communication and social issues because you were raised to believe that your sex is crap. You will never go out and you will always remain a prisoner. A prisoner to your own religion. All those women can be are housewives and nothing more. Slaves to their husbands.

What a crap life. That's not the way of Islam. That's the Sultan way.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Everyone on this form. Sultan believes women = dogs. I guarantee you if a covered woman who is Muslim gets a chance to express her views she would bash Sultan. Women cover up because they feel protected from the stares of men because they do not see a reason to date/fool around. That's it. They engage in social activities and such. They just do not date. They are friends with someone first and if they are interested they get engaged. That's how it works. I have no idea what Sultan is suggesting, but I promise you it is wrong.

It is sad that we do not have anyone who wears a scarf on anandtech who could tell you how wrong Sultan is.

Believe me he is wrong.

I have already requested to keep this thread civil. I also requested not to equate Islamic principles with actions of people.

For the above, let me quote another verse of the Quran:

? And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) anything,ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts.? (Part revelation of verse:53 Surah Ahzaab)

Although the cause of revelation refers only to the blessed wives of the Prophet (S.A), the rule applies to the whole Ummah as the wives of the Prophet (S.A) set examples for women to follow, just as the Prophet (S.A) set examples for men to follow.
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: StormRider
What was so bad about the book Satanic Verse that caused Salman Rusdie to get death threats for? I never read the book so I'm just curious what about it was so bad.

I dont have much knowledge about this subject. Many countries of Muslim majority have "blasphemy laws". I am not sure about the Islamic Law dictating this, therefore I cannot comment. Someone else may be able to help you with this.

I can help you with a couple things in the book that a Muslim might find offensive. First of all, I would like to say that it is a great novel, Rushdie is one of my favourite authors. Also, it shoulc not be taken literally. The criticism of Islam in it was sorta obtuse, and a metaphoric interpretation of it is more appropriate.

There were passages in it where one of the characters (who was a modern Londoner) "became" an angel, and then slowly "became" the very angel (Gabreel is what Rushdie called him) who gave the prophet Mohammed the word of God. In the book, this angel/character became coopted by Mohammed in a wierd way sorta like the personality of the Prophet could controll what the angel said. At this time also, the prophet was becoming old and cranky, and not as idealistic s he was at the outset of the book. Eventally, what the the angel/character said was not what he wanted to, but was more what the prophet wanted him to. For instance, some of the strictures on women's behaviour conveniently happened right after the prophet had a bitter argument with his first wife. It cast doubt on the sanctity of the prophet's words in a very indirect manner.

But again, it is more useful (in terms of enjoying the book) to place this in the context of a character who is a Muslim Indian coming to grips with living in modern England. Damn, I should pick this book up again. It has one of the best opening scenes I've read in a novel.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Aimster
Your belief on how women should cover up and how they are not allowed to interact with males is pure crap. I will give you one example of how you are pure crap. The Queen of Jordan. She lives in an Arab country and she does not cover up and she wears very appealing outfits.

I do not believe females are inferior to males, but I believe they are equal. Men are smart in their own way as are women.

How the hell can a Muslim with that thinking survive in the west? You will never get a job and if you do it will be a dead-end job. You will have a lack of communication and social issues because you were raised to believe that your sex is crap. You will never go out and you will always remain a prisoner. A prisoner to your own religion. All those women can be are housewives and nothing more. Slaves to their husbands.

What a crap life. That's not the way of Islam. That's the Sultan way.
I didn't realize being a housewife was so unfulfilling. Nor did I realize that one should worry more about how society views you than following your religion. I think you need to seriously reconsider these points, regardless of which of you is right. I have a very hard time with people who try to compartmentalize their religious beliefs and apply them only when they're in a religious setting - that's not the point of religion.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Aimster
Your belief on how women should cover up and how they are not allowed to interact with males is pure crap. I will give you one example of how you are pure crap. The Queen of Jordan. She lives in an Arab country and she does not cover up and she wears very appealing outfits.

I do not believe females are inferior to males, but I believe they are equal. Men are smart in their own way as are women.

How the hell can a Muslim with that thinking survive in the west? You will never get a job and if you do it will be a dead-end job. You will have a lack of communication and social issues because you were raised to believe that your sex is crap. You will never go out and you will always remain a prisoner. A prisoner to your own religion. All those women can be are housewives and nothing more. Slaves to their husbands.

What a crap life. That's not the way of Islam. That's the Sultan way.
I didn't realize being a housewife was so unfulfilling. Nor did I realize that one should worry more about how society views you than following your religion. I think you need to seriously reconsider these points, regardless of which of you is right. I have a very hard time with people who try to compartmentalize their religious beliefs and apply them only when they're in a religious setting - that's not the point of religion.

I'm not disrespecting women who could cover up. My girlfriend's grandmother wears a scarf. My dad's mom in Iran wears a scarf (by choice). To say that those women are not allowed to do things men can do is pure crap. They have every right to do what men can do. They are allowed to talk to men.

I was merly saying that if you want to put your head down and not give eye contact to a male that is beyond crazy. That has nothing to do with Islam. That is some man's view destroying a religion.

Women can cover up. They can go far in society. If they do what sultan says they will go nowhere.

There is nothing wrong with being a housewife, but that is all they will be forced to do if they go the Sultan way. I think a lot of women want to be more and have options instead of being a housewife. How can any of them get a job if they cannot talk to males? - according to Sultan.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
Sultan,

I can't seem to find it, but isn't the story of Abraham and Isaac differant in Islam? I am referring to the part where the prophet proclaimed Ishmael the next prophet instead of Isaac, as it is protrayed in Christianity? Seems I remember hearing this a long time ago, and a friend who is a Baptist told me I was completely wrong.