Some examples of where Sanders supporters are coming from:

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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,559
17,087
136
You have to deal with the fact that Bernie supporters will throw their toys out of the pram because regular Democrats aren't grown up enough to go along with them. California just went Sanders, the bell weather state where all the rest of the nation will be heading. Get on board the Sanders purist train:

This train is bound for glory, this train.
This train is bound for glory, this train.
This train is bound for glory,
Don't carry nothing but the righteous and the holy.
This train is bound for glory, this train.

This train don't carry no gamblers, this train;
This train don't carry no gamblers, this train;
This train don't carry no gamblers,
Liars, thieves, nor big shot ramblers,
This train is bound for glory, this train.

This train don't carry no liars, this train;
This train don't carry no liars, this train;
This train don't carry no liars,
She's streamlined and a midnight flyer,
This train don't carry no liars, this train.

This train don't carry no smokers, this train;
This train don't carry no smokers, this train
This train don't carry no smokers,
Two bit liars, small time jokers,
This train don't carry no smokers, this train.

This train don't carry no con men, this train;
This train don't carry no con men, this train;
This train don't carry no con men,
No wheeler dealers, here and gone men,
This train don't carry no con men, this train.

This train don't carry no rustlers, this train;
This train don't carry no rustlers, this train;
This train don't carry no rustlers,
Sidestreet walkers, two bit hustlers,
This train is bound for glory, this train.


Just a little point of fact, Bernie may have won California but he didn’t win the majority of it and there is only a 7 point difference between them. Considering Bernie did worse than anticipated in California I’m not sure what point you think you were making.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
8,183
9,177
136
Until there's any chance of moving to a Instant Runoff Voting system from the first-past-the-post...

Voting for the Space Jesus/Zombie Washington ticket = Not Voting = Voting for the Obviously More Evil candidate.

You can have opinions on whatever you want, but it doesn't change math.

Vote accordingly.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,767
6,770
126
The centrists don't control this country. The right wing does. We want to wrest control from them. Please join us, or, well, YOU, get the fuck out of the way. You want the moon, Moonie. Stamp your petualant pureist feet and refuse to help our fire brigade put out this clear and present danger, and all you'll get is the Big Fat Orange One mooning us.
I am here to represent what I consider to be vital to the nation, a movement toward return of the government from the grips of the 1%. Thus we may be looking at different notions of what is the real danger, Trump or the continued death of democracy. If you read my link you will have heard from people who do not care if not voting for Biden hands the election to Trump. In their opinion we are fucked either way and they will be most happy prove once again that Democrats will go nowhere until they bring forth real progressives whose aim is to return democracy to the people. I am saying that moderate liberals just don't get that. Their core values and passions are misplaced or non existent in their opinion. What if the facts are it's Sanders or we lose even if it is Sanders and we lose. What difference does it make? Some of those who hold purity in high value will walk away with theirs intact. I won't be one of them. For almost all of my life I have lived with the knowledge that humanity is asleep.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,081
136
Donald is an old man with extremist views and he pretty much stuck to all of them after he got elected.
I have to assume Bernie is the same. Old man, extreme views, will probably stick to them on entering office. I dont want that. I do not want more of the same.
Would rather have a realist like Biden.
Actually I'd rather have someone young and tough and less than 100 percent filled with bullshit like Tulsi, but thats not gonna happen so I have to go with the lesser of two evils.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,389
468
126
The global rise of right wing populism did not start, and will not end with Donald Trump. The neoliberals in the U.S. are no different than their contemporaries around the world--they will keep trotting out the same old tired arguments as they lose election after election after election trying maintain their grip on the centrist census of the 1990s which continues to melt away.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,391
33,048
136
Right now we spend more on the military than the next 7 countries combined. This is a nonsense question that you're hiding behind to avoid confronting Biden's hawkish record. And that's pretty terrible.
Bullshit. You are avoiding a completely logical question because you know answering it truthfully destroys your argument that spending money on the military is as bad as starting the Iraq War. I have no problem admitting Biden and many Democrats are too hawkish. That doesn't mean I am stupid enough to think they as bad as Bush/Cheney/etc.



What's the problem? Biden supported the Hyde amendment until last fucking year. You think he's a good candidate for reproductive rights?
No, I don't think he is a good candidate for reproductive rights. I know he is better than probably every single Republican for reproductive rights. This is the same shit I had to deal with with the girl I mentioned. If I say a is better than b you fucking simpletons can't fucking process that that doesn't mean I think a is good. Trumpists do that. Stop fucking doing that.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,243
136
How about the argument that if Sanders people don't turn out Trump wins. I hope that doesn't turn out to be the case, but what if it is. Purity is a conservative ideal and has a genetic basis. I don't like having to compromise my ideals but I tasted dog shit on a dare as a child. Logic may not be arbitrary but you may not be dealing with reality as it really is, only as you imagine it should be, your notion of what is logical.

No, facts are facts, and logic is not subjective. I could be biased or simply faulty in my logic, and my argument could be totally wrong as a result. If so, the way to refute it is to show why it's wrong, by using...facts and logic. Not to argue that one person's argument is just as good as any other.

If what you are suggesting is true, then we're doomed anyway because the youth vote is not turning out in the primary and that does not bode well for the general election.

Yet right now the economy is cratering, so it's also possible that either candidate is capable of beating Trump.

I'm just playing the odds.
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,876
10,688
147
Thus we may be looking at different notions of what is the real danger, Trump or the continued death of democracy.
Trump IS the continued death of democracy. No "or" there, Mr. Moon.

Btw, my suriviving all black cat, his all white brother Pye now buried in my back yard, is Moon. He was proud all these years to be part of the MoonPye Cat Collective. He has but three legs remaining, is all but deaf and a little bit senile.

I love him.

I love my country, too.

Callow purists who won't vote for anyone but Bernie and who think there is no difference between Joe Biden and Donald Trump? I would like for them to grow up, and fast.

For, good sir, the barbarians are inside the gate and this is no time for anyone to be too proud and iconoclastic not to lend a hand ousting them, short of their shining and uncompromising goals as that plebian BUT NECESSARY task may be.

Our country is burning. Lend a hand. We need you.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,791
6,350
126
Trump IS the continued death of democracy. No "or" there, Mr. Moon.

Btw, my suriviving all black cat, his all white brother Pye now buried in my back yard, is Moon. He was proud all these years to be part of the MoonPye Cat Collective. He has but three legs remaining, is all but deaf and a little bit senile.

I love him.

I love my country, too.

Callow purists who won't vote for anyone but Bernie and who think there is no difference between Joe Biden and Donald Trump? I would like for them to grow up, and fast.

For, good sir, the barbarians are inside the gate and this is no time for anyone to be too proud and iconoclastic not to lend a hand ousting them, short of their shining and uncompromising goals as that plebian BUT NECESSARY task may be.

Our country is burning. Lend a hand. We need you.

Your Children are burning. Lend a hand. They need you.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
Bullshit. You are avoiding a completely logical question because you know answering it truthfully destroys your argument that spending money on the military is as bad as starting the Iraq War. I have no problem admitting Biden and many Democrats are too hawkish. That doesn't mean I am stupid enough to think they as bad as Bush/Cheney/etc.

No, I don't think he is a good candidate for reproductive rights. I know he is better than probably every single Republican for reproductive rights. This is the same shit I had to deal with with the girl I mentioned. If I say a is better than b you fucking simpletons can't fucking process that that doesn't mean I think a is good. Trumpists do that. Stop fucking doing that.

You've let the Democrats sell you a terrible lie: that you should vote for bad candidates as long as the Republican version is "worse". Biden is a rotten agent for monied special interests. Democrats like him facilitate the evils of the Republican party. He told his donors that nothing will change. Listen to him. LIsten to him when he says that he would veto universal health care.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,767
6,770
126
No, facts are facts, and logic is not subjective. I could be biased or simply faulty in my logic, and my argument could be totally wrong as a result. If so, the way to refute it is to show why it's wrong, by using...facts and logic. Not to argue that one person's argument is just as good as any other.

If what you are suggesting is true, then we're doomed anyway because the youth vote is not turning out in the primary and that does not bode well for the general election.

Yet right now the economy is cratering, so it's also possible that either candidate is capable of beating Trump.

I'm just playing the odds.
I agree with you. I have a preference that Sanders be the one who wins. I will support Biden when that is my only option but not before just as I did with Clinton. I had the same opinion then, that she would lose and Sanders might have won. We will never know but I think we should find out. I'm sick of being right all the time.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,767
6,770
126
Trump IS the continued death of democracy. No "or" there, Mr. Moon.

Btw, my suriviving all black cat, his all white brother Pye now buried in my back yard, is Moon. He was proud all these years to be part of the MoonPye Cat Collective. He has but three legs remaining, is all but deaf and a little bit senile.

I love him.

I love my country, too.

Callow purists who won't vote for anyone but Bernie and who think there is no difference between Joe Biden and Donald Trump? I would like for them to grow up, and fast.

For, good sir, the barbarians are inside the gate and this is no time for anyone to be too proud and iconoclastic not to lend a hand ousting them, short of their shining and uncompromising goals as that plebian BUT NECESSARY task may be.

Our country is burning. Lend a hand. We need you.
For some the price of not going progressive is death by fire.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,228
136
Just gotta ask...where did this "youth vote" that Sanders promised would give him the Dem. nomination go? The youth sure aren't turning out to vote for Sanders. And if Sanders is unable to get the youth vote out in the primaries, who does he think will turn out to vote for him in the general election?

Sure won't be the youth. Instead, they'll just sit back, twiddling their thumbs on the phones....tweeting away about how unfair everyone is to Sanders since it appears he's failing to secure the Dem. nomination....but not taking time or responsibility to actually go out and vote. Guess they'd rather sit at home and condemn everyone else for not voting their way, all the while not being able to pry themselves away from their PS4's and XBoxes and phones and get out of the house and follow through on what they decry everyone else for not doing....voting for Bernie.

Their pitiful cries are sorta hollow sounding.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,791
6,350
126
Just gotta ask...where did this "youth vote" that Sanders promised would give him the Dem. nomination go? The youth sure aren't turning out to vote for Sanders. And if Sanders is unable to get the youth vote out in the primaries, who does he think will turn out to vote for him in the general election?

Sure won't be the youth. Instead, they'll just sit back, twiddling their thumbs on the phones....tweeting away about how unfair everyone is to Sanders since it appears he's failing to secure the Dem. nomination....but not taking time or responsibility to actually go out and vote. Guess they'd rather sit at home and condemn everyone else for not voting their way, all the while not being able to pry themselves away from their PS4's and XBoxes and phones and get out of the house and follow through on what they decry everyone else for not doing....voting for Bernie.

Their pitiful cries are sorta hollow sounding.

If he was the Dem Nominee the older Dems would Vote for him. The Youth Vote likely would start showing up in numbers as well since they'd know they weren't wasting their time. Not only that though, Sanders is more preferred amongst Independents, which the Dems also need.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
Just gotta ask...where did this "youth vote" that Sanders promised would give him the Dem. nomination go? The youth sure aren't turning out to vote for Sanders. And if Sanders is unable to get the youth vote out in the primaries, who does he think will turn out to vote for him in the general election?

Sure won't be the youth. Instead, they'll just sit back, twiddling their thumbs on the phones....tweeting away about how unfair everyone is to Sanders since it appears he's failing to secure the Dem. nomination....but not taking time or responsibility to actually go out and vote. Guess they'd rather sit at home and condemn everyone else for not voting their way, all the while not being able to pry themselves away from their PS4's and XBoxes and phones and get out of the house and follow through on what they decry everyone else for not doing....voting for Bernie.

Their pitiful cries are sorta hollow sounding.

What's Joe Biden going to do for you? What is he promising you? What's appealing about his platform to you?
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,559
17,087
136
What's Joe Biden going to do for you? What is he promising you? What's appealing about his platform to you?

What’s appealing about him is that he’s garnering more votes and delegates than any other candidate.

Just in case you guys forgot, in order to win an election you have to actually win an election. Btw, what happened to Bernie being the one candidate who could win Michigan? I guess you guys are over that narrative.
 

NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
3,811
1,290
136
What's Joe Biden going to do for you? What is he promising you? What's appealing about his platform to you?
Endless wars!
Take my money from me and give it to his rich pals!
End all the welfare programs!
War against all the drugs!
End the abortion problem!
Do more dumb things and do even more dumb things!
Return America before the civil rights movement!
Sorry, but not sorry!

Perfect candidate would vote for Jenius Biden, heard he has three degrees, graduated top of his class. He'll do push ups too, to prove it!
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,791
6,350
126
What’s appealing about him is that he’s garnering more votes and delegates than any other candidate.

Just in case you guys forgot, in order to win an election you have to actually win an election. Btw, what happened to Bernie being the one candidate who could win Michigan? I guess you guys are over that narrative.

The Primaries are not the Election.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,239
136
Bernie lost, badly.

Instead of demanding that the party listen to and understand them, perhaps Bernie folks should listen to the AAs who make up the party and why 8:1 they sent Bernie packing.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,559
17,087
136
The Primaries are not the Election.

You are right they aren’t, they are a smaller version of the election and Bernie is losing bigly. I’m not sure how that helps your case but feel free to tell me how a candidate that can’t even win a majority of a party that supposedly prefers his policies is going to win a general election that consists of people who don’t prefer his policies,
 
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BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,663
2,038
126
In a winner-take-all general election, you have to be a privileged idiot if you choose to either 1) not vote, or 2) vote for a never-going-to-win 3rd party over a candidate who at least partly aligns with your interests.

I think the last election clearly shows the consequences of what happens when people throw away their vote. But perhaps that lesson hasn't quite sunken in.

If you want to be selective, the time to do it is the primary.
What you say is a "positive" observation, not a "normative" ideal. I'm addressing your description of a "winner-take-all" election.

Remember what the Trumpers said as soon as he won the 2016? "You're just angry because we won and you lost . . . " To them, it was like an NFL game or the SPEED channel. "I win, you lose."

Ideally -- normatively -- it isn't supposed to be that way.

First, a bunch of extremists aren't supposed to pick a lunatic candidate to slap 50% of the electorate in the face for having elected a black man to two successive terms. They'll deny it, because only some cohort of those voters are boldly of that attitude and willing to admit it like a KKK group marching through the streets with sheets. Many others would bury the obvious indications.

If they had any respect for the public, they'd elect someone everyone could live with. They could've had Kasich. They could've had Bush. They could've had Rubio. They might even have got away with electing Cruz. For the most part, it's always been that way. And somebody's race isn't a legitimate justification for "not wanting to live with the decision".

The election should be a vehicle for discussing real issues and alternative solutions to those issues. For the rest of it, the public will elect someone they "like". In the end, the winner should acknowledge the views of the losers and attempt to accommodate some of those views into the general policy platform.

Instead, these people just thumbed their nose at the electorate, decided to put kids in cages, chose to build an asinine wall across wildlife refuges and national parks, pursued a policy of discouraging entry to the country by folks of a different religion . . . the list goes on. There is not one, single thing done by Trump so far that is in any way acceptable to the popular majority who would've won except for the Electoral College. Particularly, It was imprudent to select a unilateral policy direction after capturing the White House by the fluke of the Electoral College. They OWED the public an acknowledgement for the popular vote.

Instead, they spit on everyone, and slapped everyone in the face . . . . daily!

For the rest of it, I can't think of a time in my life when I would've voted for an ideologue. The only reason I wouldn't vote for Sanders is acknowledgement that the Trumpers can still vote, and fence-sitters may bolt from Sanders. Otherwise, I'd vote for Sanders just to slap the other side in the face. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. So -- fine! Let's just go totally "Socialist" -- if that's what they're afraid of.

I chose Bloomberg because he seemed like a level head, a practical person, and not starting to slide down the slope of the aging curve. I'll vote for Biden because he's a decent, good person, and apparently he only has moments here and there when you'd wonder about declining brain cells.

And I'll hope that Biden will choose Kamala for AG, because -- YES! -- the Trumpers need be taught a lesson, and Trump needs to serve hard time. That's Justice. They picked a criminal? Then the criminal should do the time!.
 
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