Some examples of where Sanders supporters are coming from:

[dank69]

That analogy doesn't work on any level. A much better analogy is if you were paying money to a friend and giving him weapons and telling him to go murder people all over the world, but then claiming that you're innocent because you didn't pull the trigger. Your friend's critique of Joe Biden is dead on.

No. Some military spending is justified. Having a powerful military is a very good deterrent against war and creates a lot of jobs. Sure, we have gone way too far, and sure, specific bad actors are fucking warmongers, and sure because of those warmongers a lot of our military might is being used for evil. But take Joe Courtney for example. The dude isn't asking for money for the sub base because he jacks off when he thinks about killing brown people. He is worried if he doesn't secure that money then thousands of people in his state lose jobs and have no replacement jobs waiting for them. The responsible, SANE, thing to do is to encourage green jobs so that we can wean the people off of military spending. The childish, naive, idealistic thing to do is claim he is as bad as Dubya.

 

[dank69]

Joe Biden is hostile to everything I stand for politically, yeah, I know, it's so insane that I won't vote for him.

Yup, Joe Biden is going to pack the courts with judges that will ban abortion and in twenty years I'll be laughing at your kids living like we did in the 80s worried that we are days away from Death Wish 3.

 

[Blackjack200]

Yup, Joe Biden is going to pack the courts with judges that will ban abortion and in twenty years I'll be laughing at your kids living like we did in the 80s worried that we are days away from Death Wish 3.

Abortion is already effectively banned for poor people, thanks to the Hyde amendment, and guess who supported THAT?

 

[Blackjack200]

No. Some military spending is justified. Having a powerful military is a very good deterrent against war and creates a lot of jobs. Sure, we have gone way too far, and sure, specific bad actors are fucking warmongers, and sure because of those warmongers a lot of our military might is being used for evil. But take Joe Courtney for example. The dude isn't asking for money for the sub base because he jacks off when he thinks about killing brown people. He is worried if he doesn't secure that money then thousands of people in his state lose jobs and have no replacement jobs waiting for them. The responsible, SANE, thing to do is to encourage green jobs so that we can wean the people off of military spending. The childish, naive, idealistic thing to do is claim he is as bad as Dubya.

Wait, are you defending military spending as a jobs program? Holy shit.

 

[sandorski]

This is what I'm talking about right here. I just literally called Joe a shithead and you are asking me what is so great about him. It's like people are blind, deaf and dumb. I spent half of my day arguing with a chick yesterday. She is a Bernie supporter, and will be voting for Joe because she knows as much as she hates him he is better than Trump, but asked me for help explaining to her other Bernie supporting friends how she can convince them to vote for Joe as well. I offered to help, and asked about what the objections to Joe were.

She listed like 10. Fine, let's address the first one, which will a multi-part problem all by itself: "Joe is a warmonger like a lot of establishment Dems" Okay...what makes you say he is a warmonger? "Oh, agreeing to huge military budgets makes you a warmonger." Okay...that doesn't really fit the definition of a warmonger. To me, a warmonger is someone who either A) starts or pushes for a new war or B) wants to continue an existing war when it would be possible to end it. "No no no, spending tax money on an already bloated military budget is a warmonger, are the weapons of war just going to sit around? No, they are going to be used." Okay, so what you are saying is that a Senator who pushes for federal money for say, a submarine base (we are in CT), is every bit as bad as a person who started the Iraq War? "Yes." Okay, are you delusional? Now, knowing she is one of those rare liberals who embrace gun ownership I put it in terms that she would understand: if what you say is true, then a person who owns a gun is every bit as bad a person as someone who shoots someone else in the head. This is where cognitive dissonance sets in and after trying to say that the difference is using tax money vs. personal money (lol) she starts whining about my use of the word delusional as name-calling and accuses me of straw-manning her while actually straw-manning me. I calm her down and teach her about the differences between straw man and reductio ad absurdum and show her how she is the one building straw men and then get back to the debate: Okay so do you now concede that starting the Iraq war is worse than getting money for the submarine base? Keep in mind you are not conceding that Dems are not warmongers. You can still call them warmongers because you don't actually understand what happened with the Iraq War vote and we can get to that discussion later. You would merely be conceding that starting the Iraq war is worse than getting money for the submarine base. "No, I'll never agree to that, sorry."

Yes, real productive. Not willing to give an inch in the face of absurdity, because of the deep fear that if she concedes to that she may end up conceding to all the other reasons and end up admitting to herself that maybe she strongly believed some things based on bad information or faulty logic or emotion. This is every person in the world that can't get past their ego. Fucking robots, just like Moonbeam has been saying for years.

The Democratic Party assumes that people owe it support, because Trump is bad. It offers its' own bad candidate and expects everyone to support it. People who balk get labelled as Bad People. Don't expect to Win.

 

[alcoholbob]

If Sanders supporters chose to vote for Sanders in the general election even if Biden is nominated, it would, with near certainty, result in Trump being elected. However, it could also send a big F-U message to the democratic party and tell them to wake up and that liberals are not just going to get in line behind whoever the party establishment wants.The short-term results of this would be bad (4 more years of Trump), but the long-term impacts could reinvigorate the Democratic part to start thinking more about putting forward a people's candidate, rather than just letting the party establishment pick who they want.

The problem is many in the party establishment include a revolving door of lobbyists and special interests who couldn't care less who wins the election, as long as they get their tax cuts and special handouts. A Republican winning is much better for them than a progressive insurgency.

Lawrence O'Donnel on MSNBC famously said after the failed election of Jon Kerry that "we (the democratic establishment) dont have to listen to the left because they have no choice but to vote for us." The idea is business interests will get taken care of, and Democrats will play the identity politics game to get progressive votes, but dont actually care about any of the actual issues. If it means losing to a republican to prevent an FDR style insurgent progressive movement, so be it.

 

[Moonbeam]

Everybody says we have to vote for Biden or Trump will win, but guess what, if Democrats don't nominate Sanders then Trump will win so every sensible moderate should vote for Sanders. The logic is just as good one way as it is the other. If the compromisers in the party want to compromise with Republicans, then let them compromise with the people in their own party who are ideologically much closer to them. The centrists control the country and the country is a mess. Get the fuck out of the way.

 

[WelshBloke]

The Democratic Party assumes that people owe it support, because Trump is bad. It offers its' own bad candidate and expects everyone to support it. People who balk get labelled as Bad People. Don't expect to Win.

It's not that you owe them support, it's your choice. But you need to own that choice. If you dont vote and Trump gets back in then you have to accept responsibility for that and own it.

 

[Blackjack200]

It's not that you owe them support, it's your choice. But you need to own that choice. If you dont vote and Trump gets back in then you have to accept responsibility for that and own it.

I wonder when it's the party's turn to own it.

 

[WelshBloke]

I wonder when it's the party's turn to own it.

Own what? They are a political party, support them or dont, it's your choice. You just have to own that choice.

 

[sandorski]

It's not that you owe them support, it's your choice. But you need to own that choice. If you dont vote and Trump gets back in then you have to accept responsibility for that and own it.

OK, that's not going to change many peoples opinion, because they have Real Needs and Trump's behaviour has nothing to do with those needs.

 

[dank69]

The Democratic Party assumes that people owe it support, because Trump is bad. It offers its' own bad candidate and expects everyone to support it. People who balk get labelled as Bad People. Don't expect to Win.

The Democratic party assumes nothing. They are doing what they think they need to do to win. Period. Everything else is your projection.

 

[dank69]

Wait, are you defending military spending as a jobs program? Holy shit.

Do you think we should have zero military?

 

[dank69]

Abortion is already effectively banned for poor people, thanks to the Hyde amendment, and guess who supported THAT?

/facepalm

 

[WelshBloke]

OK, that's not going to change many peoples opinion, because they have Real Needs and Trump's behaviour has nothing to do with those needs.

Eh? You'll end up with two choices at the election.
Vote for who you like then but dont pretend that the outcome has nothing to do with you.

 

[dank69]

Everybody says we have to vote for Biden or Trump will win, but guess what, if Democrats don't nominate Sanders then Trump will win so every sensible moderate should vote for Sanders. The logic is just as good one way as it is the other. If the compromisers in the party want to compromise with Republicans, then let them compromise with the people in their own party who are ideologically much closer to them. The centrists control the country and the country is a mess. Get the fuck out of the way.

I do not advocate ANY compromise with the GOP. You know this. I know it is highly likely that shithead Joe still thinks we can compromise with the GOP and highly likely he will try. Still better than Trump. Until we kill the Republican party things will get worse. If we can put our fucking pride aside and kill the Republican party, THEN we can fracture the Dems into shitheads and Progressives and MAYBE then we can finally make progress. If we cannot unite to kill the Republican party then we all deserve what is coming to us. It is already probably way too late. 2016 may have been our best chance to kill them and we pissed it away to serve our own egos. Keep believing Sanders could have carried Michigan when he can't even beat a piece of shit like Joe Biden. Keep pretending the 15% of D/I voters that will vote for Sanders are more important than the 55% of D/I voters that will vote for a piece of shit like Joe.

 

[dank69]

OK, that's not going to change many peoples opinion, because they have Real Needs and Trump's behaviour has nothing to do with those needs.

Right, Dems won't fulfill their needs while Republicans continue to take more from us all. Bothsides.

 

[sandorski]

Eh? You'll end up with two choices at the election.
Vote for who you like then but dont pretend that the outcome has nothing to do with you.

What I am saying is, if the Democratic Party wants to Win, they can not do so by offering nothing except not being Trump. Biden offers nothing to those people.

 

[sandorski]

Right, Dems won't fulfill their needs while Republicans continue to take more from us all. Bothsides.

This is why Hillary lost. She offered the Status Quo which was already shit. Now Biden is offering a return to the Status Quo. Do the Math.

 

[ivwshane]

What I am saying is, if the Democratic Party wants to Win, they can not do so by offering nothing except not being Trump. Biden offers nothing to those people.

What Biden offers is a return to normalcy and a transition from a broken democracy to one that can heal itself.

 

[dank69]

This is why Hillary lost. She offered the Status Quo which was already shit. Now Biden is offering a return to the Status Quo. Do the Math.

I don't need to do the math, someone else did it for us all. 15% 18-29 vs 55% 50+. Bernie can't even come close to beating a piece of shit like Biden. I'm sure all those old people and southern voters will hold their noses and vote for socialism though when just the word socialism makes them piss their pants for Trump to save them.

 

[WelshBloke]

What I am saying is, if the Democratic Party wants to Win, they can not do so by offering nothing except not being Trump. Biden offers nothing to those people.

They arent offering that, they just aren't offering exactly what you want. Thats how life goes, you have to deal with that and not throw your toys out of the pram.

 

[sandorski]

What Biden offers is a return to normalcy and a transition from a broken democracy to one that can heal itself.

"Normalcy" was what Hillary offered.

 

[dank69]

"Normalcy" was what Hillary offered.

No, she offered spirit cooking and Joe offers hair smelling and Sanders offers Venezuela. It's like you think everyone in the world is as knowledgeable and rational as you.

 

[sandorski]

They arent offering that, they just aren't offering exactly what you want. Thats how life goes, you have to deal with that and not throw your toys out of the pram.

People are Working 2-3 Jobs and still need to split Rent. They can't afford a Medical Emergency, even if they have "Insurance". Their Student Debt will take decades to pay off. They had good paying Jobs, but those went away.

Obama won, because he offered Change, but it was too little and Hillary lost offering the Status Quo. Trump won, because he offered Change, but he mostly lied. Biden offers "Normalcy", which means the Status Quo minus Trumps' BS. Trump will be re-elected if Biden is the Democratic Nominee, because they have no reason to vote for Biden.