So why do people hate OSX here so much?

[shortylickens]

Delightfully quotable.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/757610/

 

[halik]

The Mac Pro isn't comparable to the HP Z800.

Mac Pro :

8 Memory Slots, 64GB Max (Dual-Proc MP only)
1 PCI-E 2.0 x16, 2 PCI-E 2.0 X4
Radeon 5870 maximum video card from Apple, dual-GPU limited to two 5770 (PSU and qualified video cards massively gimped on apple side)
4 Hard Drive bays, limited to 6 hdds even if you order the optional SAS Raid Card

Z800 :

12 Memory Slots, 192GB Max
2 PCI-E 2.0 x16, 2 PCI-E 2.0 X8
Supports crazy number of video cards, up to 6GB Quadro 6000s
Dual GBIT Lan, Infineon TPM
6 Hard Drive bays including 4 SAS Hot-Swap bays, 14 total Sata+SAS connectors

They're just in a different league. The MP is sort of in the middle, offering more max ram but weaker video and almost everything else than the generic HP Elite Business PC above even when taken to max in single-cpu form. In dual-CPU setup (8 ram socket mobo), the MP slots in pretty heavily below the Z800 series.

EDIT : Checked out the Lenovo workstations, yeah they seem terribly priced and not that impressive in expansion/etc. Does support dual 2.5GB Nvidia 5000s, but for the most part seems weaker than Z800. That's all exotic territory though, it remains a general truth that the 'workstation' label is just an excuse to bend people over with the pricing, whether it be Apple, HP, IBM, or otherwise.

Interesting you should mention it; that's essentially my set up at work. While the HP boxes might be marginally faster on paper, I actually am far more productive on OSX versus Ubuntu on HP. Hardware specs don't mean that much unless you're getting it for a server farm and plan on unfolding proteins or something 24-7.

Most people pay premium for productivity or output of the machine, not the numbers on paper.

 

[Arkaign]

let's start with memory, HP only offers 24GB with a single processor board, apple offers 32GB.

the support of video cards is entirely down to the videocard manufactor, Nvidia only wanted to support the Quadro 4000 on Mac. Also unless we're talking singleslot cards, the Z800 doesn't really support a crazy number of videocards for obvious reasons.

the Mac Pro has Dual Gbit LAN as well...

I could keep going but the most important thing, that you seem to have missed, is that the Mac Pro and the HP Z800 offers comparable hardware at the same pricepoint, that HP allows you to spend more money on more hardware is besides the point.

believe me, there's a HUGE difference between the quality in consumer grade desktops and workstations, both quality of parts, build quality and design. Workstations are built to a specification not a budget.

HP lists 192gb max supported memory on the Z800, they also have the 6GB Nvidia 6000 listed as an add-on under customization. That they don't sell more than 24GB directly from their site is a flaw in their setup. The hot-plus SAS raid on the Z800 is also not directly matched by the Mac Pro either. They are definitely not equal systems on the high end.

As for consumer grade desktops vs. "workstations", I'm not sold. I've used and supported a huge number of "Workstation" products over the years, mainly Mac Pro and Dell Precision, but also a lot of others, and I really don't see a lot to get excited about.

Build quality = fantastic for notebooks (MBA/MBP = best in the business by far), but for Desktops? As long as it works and is reliable, who cares? Whether or not the case is made of platinium with .0001 gaps between bezels doesn't matter to me. Actually a bad thing I've noticed is that most "workstations" are hopelessly proprietary in design.

Quality of parts? Really? The only thing you can really look at that is notably different in quality with most "workstation" level systems vs. high end typical business/consumer desktops is the power supplies are generally better. Even though they're better, they're still not exactly fantastic. With a typical system, you can replace it with something really serious easily and cheaply. Memory is memory, drives are easily available and not 'special' made for workstations, adding SAS/raid is easy, etc. The mobos on "workstations" generally have more built-in ram and drive support though.

Design? Again, similar to 'build quality', this is largely irrelevant if the thing works. Quick google search reveals plenty of people having serious problems with MacPro, Precision, etc. Nothing is immune to the usual problems, and the components are the same stuff that flows out of China, Taiwan, etc.

Warranty and service plans are generally better on workstations though.

 

[Arkaign]

Interesting you should mention it; that's essentially my set up at work. While the HP boxes might be marginally faster on paper, I actually am far more productive on OSX versus Ubuntu on HP. Hardware specs don't mean that much unless you're getting it for a server farm and plan on unfolding proteins or something 24-7.

Most people pay premium for productivity or output of the machine, not the numbers on paper.

Now that makes sense! If OSX is what works best for you, and it has everything you need, then MP is the best solution for you.

 

[Blitzvogel]

Interesting you should mention it; that's essentially my set up at work. While the HP boxes might be marginally faster on paper, I actually am far more productive on OSX versus Ubuntu on HP. Hardware specs don't mean that much unless you're getting it for a server farm and plan on unfolding proteins or something 24-7.

Most people pay premium for productivity or output of the machine, not the numbers on paper.

Wow what do you do for a living?

 

[dwell]

All the devs at my place are switching over to Macs. Does not help that the Windows admins bog down the PCs with virus scanning up the ass and other CPU cycle wasters.

 

[halik]

Wow what do you do for a living?

algo trader

 

[xanis]

I ran a custom-built PC for a few years, then switched over to a Macbook Pro when I went off to college. I've used a variety of Mac computers (iMac, Mac Pro, Macbook Pro) along with a variety of PCs.

In my honest opinion, Macs are better. I realize that the prices are high compared to the Windows-based competition. I absolutely could buy a laptop with better specs than a Macbook Pro and save some money, but I'm willing to pay. Why? First, the form factor and construction. Call me stupid but I like that the MBP is more aesthetically-pleasing and has a smaller, cleaner case than 99% of other laptops. Secondly, OS X is the best operating system that I've ever used. I know a lot of people disagree and pull out the "no gaming" and "not suited to power users" arguments, but I rarely ever play PC games (the ones I do run on Mac anyway) and I know or could find out how to do all of the "power user" things that I'd ever need to do.

You can argue until you're blue in the face that I'm paying for overpriced crap, but if I like it, I'm productive on it, it suits my needs, and I'm willing to pay... so the hell what?

 

[Arkaign]

All the devs at my place are switching over to Macs. Does not help that the Windows admins bog down the PCs with virus scanning up the ass and other CPU cycle wasters.

Heh true. Most security software for Windows is terribly written. I do worry that with a rapidly increasing user base, that virii/spyware for OSX will start to increase steadily as well. MBA/MBP is my usual recommendation for someone wanting a nice notebook these days, even if they're just going to run Win7 on it.

 

[Arkaign]

I ran a custom-built PC for a few years, then switched over to a Macbook Pro when I went off to college. I've used a variety of Mac computers (iMac, Mac Pro, Macbook Pro) along with a variety of PCs.

In my honest opinion, Macs are better. I realize that the prices are high compared to the Windows-based competition. I absolutely could buy a laptop with better specs than a Macbook Pro and save some money, but I'm willing to pay. Why? First, the form factor and construction. Call me stupid but I like that the MBP is more aesthetically-pleasing and has a smaller, cleaner case than 99% of other laptops. Secondly, OS X is the best operating system that I've ever used. It may not be as suited to power users as Windows, but just about everything about it suits my needs.

You can argue until you're blue in the face that I'm paying for overpriced crap, but if I like it, I'm productive on it, it suits my needs, and I'm willing to pay... so the hell what?

I agree on the notebooks whole-heartedly. I've recently messed around with an Envy and an Adamo, and while they're cool, they don't match MB quality.

Desktop-wise, I think the iMac is a nice all-in-one, but I'm waaay not sold on MacPro, unless you have an absolute need for one (want OSX + decent power for whatever app(s).

OSX doesn't do it for me personally, and I chalk 90% of that up to having spent so much time in Dos and Windows over the years. I'm just slow at using OSX.

My next notebook will probably be a MBA when they finally dump the damned C2D.

 

[Sureshot324]

The windows/Linux taskbar does the job of both the apple menu bar and dock, and does it better while using less screen real estate. The apple menu bar is a massive waste of space.

Finder lacks an address bar. Yes you can add the path button, but imo this is not as good as the Windows 7 address bar.

 

[zerocool84]

The windows/Linux taskbar does the job of both the apple menu bar and dock, and does it better while using less screen real estate. The apple menu bar is a massive waste of space.

Finder lacks an address bar. Yes you can add the path button, but imo this is not as good as the Windows 7 address bar.

The menu bar is the #1 thing I hate about OSX.

 

[dwell]

The menu bar is the #1 thing I hate about OSX.

The menu bar is awesome. The only reason not to like it is if you're accustomed to the way Windows handles menus.

One distinction that people who come from Windows don't understand is that Mac is a document-based OS where Windows is essentially an application manager.

In OS X, you're always in the context of the document you're working in at the time be it a Photoshop image or web page. Having the menu on top allows you to slam the mouse to the top on the screen to a consistent spot in order to do menu actions. In Windows it takes effort to hunt and tap at the current window's menu.

I am not arguing any approach is better is just saying just pointing out the distinctions.

 

[fatpat268]

Here I take issue. Osx is in no way dumbed down. I switched from debian, and I have lost no power or flexibility. Apple is not without glaring faults, but a dumbed down os is not one of them

Really? On its top level, OSX is very dumbed down... down to changing settings, installing apps, etc. Yea, because it's UNIX based, you can drill down and customize/configure to your hearts content, but it's still dumbed down. As a power user, I find it harder to work in OSX than Windows or other Linux distro because I have to deal with all the user friendly bs first.

Like I said, I have nothing against OSX, it's just that I find Windows or a no bullshit linux distro to be easier to use.

 

[dwell]

I don't see how OS X is "dumbed down" at all. Settings? How? Installing apps? Why, because there's no superfluous installer that leaves a bunch of cruft around after uninstall? The things you complain about fit the 5% rule, meaning only 5% of the people would care about such things.

You find it harder to work under OS X than Windows it's because you're used to Windows.

 

[wwswimming]

i don't hate it. just not willing to pay $ for it.

i finally got a copy. bought an iMac for $3 at a garage sale. it was a post-divorce sale. woman sold her husband's old iMac for $3.

all it needed was a USB keyboard and a USB mouse - and it works !

 

[DivideBYZero]

The windows/Linux taskbar does the job of both the apple menu bar and dock, and does it better while using less screen real estate. The apple menu bar is a massive waste of space.

LOL wut? You can resize the dock and have it disappear just like you can in windows. The menu bar is 10 pixels or so, so yeah, whatever.

 

[xanis]

I agree on the notebooks whole-heartedly. I've recently messed around with an Envy and an Adamo, and while they're cool, they don't match MB quality.

Desktop-wise, I think the iMac is a nice all-in-one, but I'm waaay not sold on MacPro, unless you have an absolute need for one (want OSX + decent power for whatever app(s).

OSX doesn't do it for me personally, and I chalk 90% of that up to having spent so much time in Dos and Windows over the years. I'm just slow at using OSX.

My next notebook will probably be a MBA when they finally dump the damned C2D.

I've spent the past 4 years using OS X exclusively, so I'm pretty good with it at this point. The only time I get tripped up using a PC these days is when I use the wrong button combinations. For example, I'll try to hit Cmd+C and wind up hitting Alt-C or Windows-C instead.

 

[fatpat268]

I don't see how OS X is "dumbed down" at all. Settings? How? Installing apps? Why, because there's no superfluous installer that leaves a bunch of cruft around after uninstall? The things you complain about fit the 5% rule, meaning only 5% of the people would care about such things.

You find it harder to work under OS X than Windows it's because you're used to Windows.

Ugh. You misunderstand me, and at this point you're putting words into my mouth.

From my perspective, yes OSX is dumbed down. I'm a tinkerer by nature. And yes, I find windows to be "easier" because I'm used to windows. But I'm also proficient with Linux, but I feel bogged down by OSX's "user friendliness." What really bugs me about OSX is a lot of the little things that are missing from a standard install. A lot of the stuff you want to maybe tweak... you can't because the options are missing.

For example (and I know my examples will get criticized, but w/e):
Want to mess with the mouse acceleration curve because you hate it? You can't, gotta install an app.
Want to mess with and add new multitouch gestures? Can't, gotta install an app.
Fix the green button not maximizing fully? Can't gotta install an app.
Putting an app in the trash doesn't fully uninstall (although, this applies to windows as well).
No cut/paste of folders

And there's other things that I've forgotten since I haven't used OSX in a few months.

But yea, I like to mess around with my OSes and configure them to my liking. I can do that with OSX, just not nearly as easily as Linux or windows... and I've accepted that OSX isn't really for me.

 

[dwell]

For example (and I know my examples will get criticized, but w/e):
Want to mess with the mouse acceleration curve because you hate it? You can't, gotta install an app.
Want to mess with and add new multitouch gestures? Can't, gotta install an app.
Fix the green button not maximizing fully? Can't gotta install an app.
Putting an app in the trash doesn't fully uninstall (although, this applies to windows as well).
No cut/paste of folders

These are all things *you* would want to install because *you* don't like how the OS works. Again, 5% rule. Even on Windows it's the vast, vast minority who cares about such things. Everyday users just want the OS to stay out of their way.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

This shit is what annoys me the most:

 

[alkemyst]

This shit is what annoys me the most:

lol, what a sad little man!

that shit really bothers you?

 

[shortylickens]

I miss the DOS days when EVERYTHING went in to one directory and that was it.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

lol, what a sad little man!

that shit really bothers you?

The decals don't really bother me, per se, but rather they encapsulate precisely what annoys me most about a lot of Mac users -- particularly, label whoring. I'd be equally annoyed by a person that would put a Gucci or Louis Vuitton logo decal on the rear window of his car.

I prefer to work in Windows or Linux, but I don't hate on OS X. I'm just not very familiar with it. I'm not about to go put a Windows or Linux sticker on my vehicle though, because I'm not an attention-whoring douchebag.

I don't really expect you to grasp the nuance, however.

 

[alkemyst]

yeah people should stick to WalMart, brand names are something only idiots can get behind.

Everyone is out to be an attention whore that 'likes' something enough to use the branding...

like I said, that's really sad it bothers you.