So, does the 7950GX2 count as a single card solution?

[Munky]

Originally posted by: nullpointerus

Originally posted by: munky
See, the term "Quad SLI" itself means that there's technically 4 video cards. The marketing f**ks spent so much effort trying to pass it off as one card, but then when asked what do you call 2 of them in SLI, they look at the picture and go "Duhhhh... ummmm... Quad SLi???"

If that's true, then would you call ASUS' dual 7800 card two video cards just because it uses SLI? Seems like a single PCB to me. Were the Voodoo 5500 and 6000 two-card and four-card products respectively? What about the Rage Fury MAXX?

Logically there are two video cards, but physically there is one expansion card. And if you are going to make the case that number of logical cards is the true metric, then Golgatha's argument about multicore CPUs stands, too.

I think you need to let go of the banana, munky.

That Asus card would also not qualify as a single card, because it requires a SLI mobo. But at least that one looks like a single card. This one is more similar to a dual core P4 cpu - it's actually 2 physical cpu's slapped together to fit one socket, not like a AMD dual core cpu. And while we're on the topic of parallelism, I'd much rather have a 5ghz single core than a 2.5ghz dual core.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: thilan29
As BFG10K stated, the software will see it as it would an SLI setup so you can't compare it to a hard drive cause does windows see the separate platters?? No it doesn't...it sees it as 1 hard drive...I don't even know why you'd use that pathetic comparison

Windows shows a dual core processor as 2 seperate CPUs. If you partition a hard drive windows will view it as seperate drives. blah blah blah. Still one CPU, Still one hard drive and the 7950 is still just one video card.

Originally posted by: thilan29
...and chocolate bars and girls?? Oookay.:roll:

SARCASM

Again you're using the hard drive analogy as if you can magically make Windows see the card as ONE card...when in fact you can't. A hard drive can be made to look like whatever you want it to in windows...but you can't do the same for the card.

And yes I know what sarcasm is...and I knew you were being sarcastic...that's why I didn't argue any point about that.

I completely agree with what BFG said...It might fit in s single slot but in software it has all the limitations of a SLI setup. I actually thought the Asus 7800dual card as a single card although you need an SLI motherboard for it....that was pretty innovative IMO and I would have liked to get one if it wasn't so damn expensive.

The only thing I don't like about the 7950GX2 is how they market it as a 1gb card when in fact you only have a 512mb frame buffer as you would in a 7900GTX SLI setup. IMO, it's a single slot, dual GPU card...I guess from now on we have to start making the distinction between a single/dual slot and single/dual GPU cards cause the line just got blurred.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: beggerking

Incorrect. Physically, you see dual core as a single CPU. But when you look inside, you'll see 2 CPUseach with its own cache etc, connect via frontside bus. exactly the same as 2 cpus stacking up side by side.

replace the CPU and the frontside bus connection above with GPU and SLI Connector, you get 7950GX2.

This is a single card solution anyway you spin it.

Incorrect? No, thats your opinion. Taking off my IHS from my Opty looked the same as a single core CPU. A dual core GPU, would be the same as a dual core CPU. Any way I try to spin it? Im not spinning anything, its my opinion. And as you can see, most agree with me.

As I said, you can make an arguement either way. Obviously its about split, some think its a single card, some dont. I dont think its a single card. I can see two cards pretty easily. Other do, and thats ok. Bringing in HD platters and such is silly. Techincally, you can connect two seperate HD's with an IDE cable (master/slave) and have only one connection to the mobo, for both HD's. Does that make it a single HD? Nope, not to me. Even if they are in RAID together, they're still seperate.

It doesnt matter either way really. Its here, and pretty fast. The only people other than PR people that it matters to, is NV fans wanting to tout the "fastest single card", which they will never buy anyways.

/end

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: Wreckage
That hard drive has 2 platters so it?s really 2 hard drives.

As BFG10K stated, the software will see it as it would an SLI setup so you can't compare it to a hard drive cause does windows see the separate platters?? No it doesn't...it sees it as 1 hard drive...I don't even know why you'd use that pathetic comparison...and chocolate bars and girls?? Oookay.:roll:

and BFG10K is wrong. software is required for a SLI setup so the OS can distribute data to each GPU evenly to allow parallelism, there is nothing physically related between software and hardware. NV might as well tweak the SLI to allow single GPU to be used, but then that would be a waste of time since there is no need for data distribution/balancing on a single GPU. Same apply to dual core CPU, an OS supporting multiCPU is required to make use of its 2nd core.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Again you're using the hard drive analogy as if you can magically make Windows see the card as ONE card...when in fact you can't. A hard drive can be made to look like whatever you want it to in windows...but you can't do the same for the card.

I completely agree with what BFG said...It might fit in s single slot but in software it has all the limitations of a SLI setup.

Your whole argument applies to a dual core CPU. You need special software to see both cores and it has all the limitations of a standard SMP setup. You can't run a dual core CPU in Windows 98 and have it run both cores because windows 98 does not support SMP. I refer to a dual core CPU as 1 CPU, just as I would refer to a multi-GPU card as one card.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: beggerking
and BFG10K is wrong. software is required for a SLI setup so the OS can distribute data to each GPU evenly to allow parallelism, there is nothing physically related between software and hardware. NV might as well tweak the SLI to allow single GPU to be used, but then that would be a waste of time since there is no need for data distribution/balancing on a single GPU. Same apply to dual core CPU, an OS supporting multiCPU is required to make use of its 2nd core.

OF course there is nothing PHYSICALLY related confused: but will the card work as intended without that software??? No it won't.

How is BFG wrong by the way?? You're implying there is a way to make Windows see the 2 GPUs as a single GPU and run as if it's NOT an SLI setup, which is impossible. You can turn off SLI and have a single GPU working but the point of this card is for the added performance, which is impossible without the SLI software.

And your analogy to dual core is correct...for a dual core CPU to work you need the multi-CPU supporting OS. The same applies to the 7950GX2...for it to work as a dual GPU card you NEED the SLI drivers and profiles. Otherwise what would be the point of the card??

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Incorrect? No, thats your opinion. Taking off my IHS from my Opty looked the same as a single core CPU. A dual core GPU, would be the same as a dual core CPU.
/end

before dual core CPU, we have multiple CPU, with each CPUs lie in a seperate socket. dual core CPU simply stack them side by side to save cost of the extra socket, and while providing the possibility to quad CPU.

If you really look into your dual Core CPU, you will see 2 seperate cpus, each with its own cache and a datapath between them, exactly as with multiple CPU on a sperate socket.

The analogy is the same here with GPUs. traditional SLI/Crossfire is like multiple GPU on seperate socket. The new 7950GX2 is like dual core GPU using a single socket.

"look" is deceptive and you fell right into it.

 

[Bobthelost]

Personally i'm going to think about it as SLI, because it's got all the benifits and problems of SLI (with the exception of a more compact format, which brings it's own problems).

Is this technically correct? Possibly not, but who the flying monkey **** cares?

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
As I said, you can make an arguement either way. Obviously its about split, some think its a single card, some dont. I dont think its a single card. I can see two cards pretty easily. Other do, and thats ok. Bringing in HD platters and such is silly. Techincally, you can connect two seperate HD's with an IDE cable (master/slave) and have only one connection to the mobo, for both HD's. Does that make it a single HD? Nope, not to me. Even if they are in RAID together, they're still seperate.

I'd like to see you separate a 7950GX2 and use both cards individually; in fact, if you can do that, I'll give in and call it a multi-card...uh...card thingy.

It doesnt matter either way really.

Yes, same here. Even though it is only a single card, due to ordinary SLI issues that's not really as meaningful as if it were a single card G80.

The only people other than PR people that it matters to, is NV fans wanting to tout the "fastest single card", which they will never buy anyways.

It also matters to people with an axe to grind against NV, SLI, multi-PCB cards, etc. I've never seen so many flawed analogies being thrown around outside of a political debate.

That said, I was careful not to make any analogies of my own.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: beggerking
and BFG10K is wrong. software is required for a SLI setup so the OS can distribute data to each GPU evenly to allow parallelism, there is nothing physically related between software and hardware. NV might as well tweak the SLI to allow single GPU to be used, but then that would be a waste of time since there is no need for data distribution/balancing on a single GPU. Same apply to dual core CPU, an OS supporting multiCPU is required to make use of its 2nd core.

OF course there is nothing PHYSICALLY related confused but will the card work as intended without that software??? No it won't.

How is BFG wrong by the way?? You're implying there is a way to make Windows see the 2 GPUs as a single GPU and run as if it's NOT an SLI setup, which is impossible. You can turn off SLI and have a single GPU working but the point of this card is for the added performance, which is impossible without the SLI software.

And your analogy to dual core is correct...for a dual core CPU to work you need the multi-CPU supporting OS. The same applies to the 7950GX2...for it to work as a dual GPU card you NEED the SLI drivers and profiles. Otherwise what would be the point of the card??

Therefore, BFG's idea of "because software uses SLI, its not a pure single slot carf" is invalid.

very much the same as dual-core being single socket, 7950gx2 is a single slot card. Software has nothing to do with the hardware.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: thilan29

Again you're using the hard drive analogy as if you can magically make Windows see the card as ONE card...when in fact you can't. A hard drive can be made to look like whatever you want it to in windows...but you can't do the same for the card.

I completely agree with what BFG said...It might fit in s single slot but in software it has all the limitations of a SLI setup.

Your whole argument applies to a dual core CPU. You need special software to see both cores and it has all the limitations of a standard SMP setup. You can't run a dual core CPU in Windows 98 and have it run both cores because windows 98 does not support SMP. I refer to a dual core CPU as 1 CPU, just as I would refer to a multi-GPU card as one card.

How does the hard drive analogy apply to CPUs though?? You don't need special software to see multiple partitions and they can be deleted and created at will and will work similiarly whether it has 1 partition or 10 partitions.

YOUR CPU argument does apply to GPUs and I've never claimed otherwise...you need the software to have the card work as intended...just as BFG stated, with which I agreed.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: beggerking
Therefore, BFG's idea of "because software uses SLI, its not a pure single slot carf" is invalid.

very much the same as dual-core being single socket, 7950gx2 is a single slot card. Software has nothing to do with the hardware.

BFG never said that the card wasn't a "single slot" card. He just said that the software recognized it as 2 GPUS...how's that wrong?? Don't you NEED the software to run the card as it was intended??

And you're claiming software has nothing to do with hardware?? Have fun staring at your computer and hoping it will do anything. Without the software, hardware goes nowhere.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: thilan29
YOUR CPU argument does apply to GPUs and I've never claimed otherwise...you need the software to have the card work as intended...just as BFG stated, with which I agreed.

Software simply distributes the load to each CPU/GPU. Individual CPU/GPU is still "at work" even without software distributing the data, though depends on implementation, most likely both cores will receive / process same data , or only 1 core will receive data. But on the physical level, both core will be "working" and powered from a single socket/slot.

I hope this further prove BFG's statement being incorrect.. software implementation DOES NOT affect hardware implementation. Therefore, 7950gx2 is a single card solution and that is the truth.

Ackmed tends to think otherwise because of his deficiency in technical knowledge. Here, I have just proved to you technically, it is a single slot card.

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: nullpointerus

Originally posted by: munky
See, the term "Quad SLI" itself means that there's technically 4 video cards. The marketing f**ks spent so much effort trying to pass it off as one card, but then when asked what do you call 2 of them in SLI, they look at the picture and go "Duhhhh... ummmm... Quad SLi???"

If that's true, then would you call ASUS' dual 7800 card two video cards just because it uses SLI? Seems like a single PCB to me. Were the Voodoo 5500 and 6000 two-card and four-card products respectively? What about the Rage Fury MAXX?

Logically there are two video cards, but physically there is one expansion card. And if you are going to make the case that number of logical cards is the true metric, then Golgatha's argument about multicore CPUs stands, too.

I think you need to let go of the banana, munky.

That Asus card would also not qualify as a single card, because it requires a SLI mobo. But at least that one looks like a single card. This one is more similar to a dual core P4 cpu - it's actually 2 physical cpu's slapped together to fit one socket, not like a AMD dual core cpu.

IOW you have two criteria for a single card solution:

1) does not use more than one PCB
2) does not require SLI

They're both bull IMO. There are minor practical issues with SLI and 7950GX2, but nVidia will inevitably fix the majority of issues, and those issues aside it doesn't matter to me as long as the 7950GX2 hits decent cost/performance ratio in reputable reviews. Let the fanboys bicker about the specifics of "single card solution."

And while we're on the topic of parallelism, I'd much rather have a 5ghz single core than a 2.5ghz dual core.

Most people would, I expect. If you find any 1GHz G7x cores with 512MB 2.4GHz memory, let me know, eh?

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: beggerking
I hope this further prove BFG's statement being incorrect.. software implementation DOES NOT affect hardware implementation. Therefore, 7950gx2 is a single slot card and that is the truth.

I'm just being fececious, but in another sense technically the 7950GX2 is a two-slot card. Remember all the hubbub about the GeForce FX series's coolers?

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: nullpointerus

Originally posted by: beggerking
I hope this further prove BFG's statement being incorrect.. software implementation DOES NOT affect hardware implementation. Therefore, 7950gx2 is a single slot card and that is the truth.

I'm just being fececious, but in another sense technically the 7950GX2 is a two-slot card. Remember all the hubbub about the GeForce FX series's coolers?

lol.. I meant single card solution..

then 1900xtx technically would be a two-slot card..

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: beggerking
I hope this further prove BFG's statement being incorrect.. software implementation DOES NOT affect hardware implementation. Therefore, 7950gx2 is a single slot card and that is the truth.

Ackmed tends to think otherwise because of his deficiency in technical knowledge. Here, I have just proved to you technically, it is a single slot card.

NO ONE ever said that the card is not a "single slot" card so you didn't prove anything people didn't already know. The argument is whether it's a "single card" not whether it's a single slot card.

On the software side, it runs as a dual gpu card so it's not definitively a single card. If the dual gpu was completely transparent, meaning you didn't need SLI drivers and profiles, then you can call it a single card...but as of now you can't call it that.

Software implementation DOES affect how the card works so software and hardware are not completely separate...and for someone calling other people technically deficient I thought you'd know that.

 

[imported_Crusader]

Originally posted by: beggerking
If you really look into your dual Core CPU, you will see 2 seperate cpus, each with its own cache and a datapath between them, exactly as with multiple CPU on a sperate socket.

You hit the point on the head for me in this reply to Ackmed.

Take the heatspreader off an X2 and you have yourself double cache (remind you of 2x512MB on the GX2 much?), double data paths, all of that.

Put a shroud over your 7950GX2 and then basically.. its a "single card" according to Ackmeds definition.
Make sense much?






Good point as well Wreckage on referring to a GX2 plurally. "I'm gonna buy me a GX2's!"

Originally posted by: thilan29
OF course there is nothing PHYSICALLY related confused: but will the card work as intended without that software??? No it won't.

erm..... *BONK!*

This comment made me chuckle..
Does your X1800XL run as intended without "that software" (your drivers)?
Does a dual core CPU run as intended without "that software"?

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Crusader

Originally posted by: thilan29
OF course there is nothing PHYSICALLY related confused: but will the card work as intended without that software??? No it won't.

erm..... *BONK!*

This comment made me chuckle..
Does your X1800XL run as intended without "that software" (your drivers)?
Does a dual core CPU run as intended without "that software"?

Umm...not sure if you're agreeing with me or what...but I said exactly what you just said. Beggerking stated there is nothing "physically related" between hardware and software and I just said that you NEED the software to run the hardware...which is what you're implying too right?...and which is what I just said. And it applies to the 7950GX2 also. WIthout the proper SLI drivers and profiles it doesn't work properly...and it does work as a dual gpu card with the proper SLI drivers.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: beggerking
I hope this further prove BFG's statement being incorrect.. software implementation DOES NOT affect hardware implementation. Therefore, 7950gx2 is a single slot card and that is the truth.

Ackmed tends to think otherwise because of his deficiency in technical knowledge. Here, I have just proved to you technically, it is a single slot card.

NO ONE ever said that the card is not a "single slot" card so you didn't prove anything people didn't already know. The argument is whether it's a "single card" not whether it's a single slot card.

On the software side, it runs as a dual gpu card so it's not definitively a single card. If the dual gpu was completely transparent, meaning you didn't need SLI drivers and profiles, then you can call it a single card...but as of now you can't call it that.

Software implementation DOES affect how the card works so software and hardware are not completely separate...and for someone calling other people technically deficient I thought you'd know that.

single slot card vs single socket CPU
would you say a dualcore cpu a "dual socket solution" ?no you won't, at least I've never heard of it.

same thing here.
a single slot card = "single card solution"

on software side, it runs as dual GPU very much the same as dual core run as dual CPU in windows. Would you say CPU not a single socket solution?

SLI driver = MultiCPU support

Software implementation DOES NOT Affect hardware definition/implementation/structure. Software SIMPLY FEEDS DATA to hardware and received output from hardware to transform to machine (cpu) language. guess you are technically deficient as well.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: nullpointerus
IOW you have two criteria for a single card solution:

1) does not use more than one PCB
2) does not require SLI

They're both bull IMO. There are minor practical issues with SLI and 7950GX2, but nVidia will inevitably fix the majority of issues, and those issues aside it doesn't matter to me as long as the 7950GX2 hits decent cost/performance ratio in reputable reviews. Let the fanboys bicker about the specifics of "single card solution."

Then you're really not gonna like my 3rd requirement: it must use a single gpu. The 1st criteria is more based on appearance than technology. The 2nd one remains because no real "single" card requires a mobo that's designed for 2 cards. The third is purely technical - it may even have 10 gpu's on one board, but if it inherits all the flaws and limitations of 10 discrete cards, then it does not warrant the same name as if the same performance was accomplished by a single gpu. Just like calling it a 1GB card is a half-truth because you can not physically allocate 1GB of memory on it.

I will not get into the list of issues with SLI, but suffice it to say that this wouldnt be the first time when the company promised to get an issue fixed and it never happened.

If you find any 1GHz G7x cores with 512MB 2.4GHz memory, let me know, eh?

They wouldnt ever bother trying to make a single 1ghz core if you already give them the same credit for slapping 2x 500mhz cores together.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Umm...not sure if you're agreeing with me or what...but I said exactly what you just said. Beggerking stated there is nothing "physically related" between hardware and software and I just said that you NEED the software to run the hardware...which is what you're implying too right?...and which is what I just said. And it applies to the 7950GX2 also. WIthout the proper SLI drivers and profiles it doesn't work properly...and it does work as a dual gpu card with the proper SLI drivers.

it actually does work properly even without data feed into it..it'll just be working on empty data..

software sees it as "another" GPU so it can "ID" it properly, and distribute data to it. software sees it as a place to output data.

the hardware is actually a single solution with 2 sources to receive data. but it is still a single solution with 2 inputs.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: beggerking

Originally posted by: thilan29
Software implementation DOES affect how the card works so software and hardware are not completely separate...and for someone calling other people technically deficient I thought you'd know that.

single slot card vs single socket CPU
would you say a dualcore cpu a "dual socket solution" ?no you won't, at least I've never heard of it.

same thing here.
a single slot card = "single card solution"

on software side, it runs as dual GPU very much the same as dual core run as dual CPU in windows. Would you say CPU not a single socket solution?

SLI driver = MultiCPU support

Software implementation DOES NOT Affect hardware definition/implementation/structure. Software SIMPLY FEEDS DATA to hardware and received output from hardware to transform to machine (cpu) language. guess you are technically deficient as well.

Are you arguing "single slot" card or "single card"??? I've already said no one has said it's not a "single slot" card. Everyone has said it IS a "single slot" card...you're again arguing what no one was disputing. Remember the thread title: "SO, does the 7950GX2 count as a single card solution?"

I bolded what I said. "Software implementation DOES affect how the card works." Is that not true?? You're telling me the card will work properly without proper SLI drivers and profiles??

Actually software implementation does affect hardware implementation...NVidia could make a 50 GPU card but it would do absolutely nothing if there were no drivers written for it. NVidia would NOT have made the 7950GX2 if there was no way to get it working in the drivers.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: beggerking

Originally posted by: thilan29

Umm...not sure if you're agreeing with me or what...but I said exactly what you just said. Beggerking stated there is nothing "physically related" between hardware and software and I just said that you NEED the software to run the hardware...which is what you're implying too right?...and which is what I just said. And it applies to the 7950GX2 also. WIthout the proper SLI drivers and profiles it doesn't work properly...and it does work as a dual gpu card with the proper SLI drivers.

it actually does work properly even without data feed into it..it'll just be working on empty data..

software sees it as "another" GPU so it can "ID" it properly, and distribute data to it. software sees it as a place to output data.

the hardware is actually a single solution with 2 sources to receive data. but it is still a single solution with 2 inputs.

By that logic a normal SLI setup is also a single card solution. ANd when I say "works properly" I mean can you play games with it. What's the point of buying that card if all you're going to be doing is working with "empty data" as you said.

And now your argument has changed to "single solution". So what is it?? "Single card solution", "Single slot solution" , or "single solution"??

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: redbox

Originally posted by: BFG10K
In terms of hardware it's a single card (one slot, works in non-SLI motherboards, etc).

In terms of software it's two cards because the drivers react to the card like they do with two cards in SLI.

That's about the best explanation I have found for the 7950GX2. Thanks BFG10K

Agreed. This is what makes or brakes the product IMO. Electrically speaking the Voodoo 5 5500 was two 4500 series on one PCB (2xVSA100 with 32MB RAM each) with a PCI bridge chip, but the drivers worked seamlessly with every single game out on the market without any game profiles, etc. IMO this is a single card solution with a piss poor software implementation.