So, does the 7950GX2 count as a single card solution?

[pacho108]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
The driver path that is invoked is the SLI driver path, not the single GPU path. SLI is a function of multiple GPUs and therefore from a software standpoint it's two cards.

same thing i was going to say, even if asus/gigabyte say their dual 6600/7800 gt is a single card, nvidias drivers state otherwise
im not arguing if both gpus are distributed in one or two pcbs, its still running in SLI which as experienced by many users isnt as stable as a single card/gpu solution

 

[Captante]

Single SLOT solution = Yes

Single CARD = No

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: boogerking

Joker: stop threadcrapping, this conversation is not of your level to comprehend.

Yeah I know, I'd have to bash my head with a cement block to drop to your level little booger.

---

Be nice, or be somewhere else. If you cannot accept the first option, we can and will enforce the second one without further notice.

AnandTech Moderator

 

[VanTheMan]

One slot = one card. I think I read that quadding might eventually be supported using only two PCI-e slots.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: m21s
Oh this is soooooo simple.

This is a Single PCI-E SLOT Solution

NOT a Single card solution.

QFT and fixed. Its as simple as this. I think we should drop this now. I cant believe people are going all mad at this tiny issue.

note - single slot solution means it takes up one slot e.g 7900GT instead of dual slot solutions like 7900GTX or X900XTX.

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: nullpointerus
IOW you have two criteria for a single card solution:

1) does not use more than one PCB
2) does not require SLI

They're both bull IMO. There are minor practical issues with SLI and 7950GX2, but nVidia will inevitably fix the majority of issues, and those issues aside it doesn't matter to me as long as the 7950GX2 hits decent cost/performance ratio in reputable reviews. Let the fanboys bicker about the specifics of "single card solution."

Then you're really not gonna like my 3rd requirement: it must use a single gpu. The 1st criteria is more based on appearance than technology. The 2nd one remains because no real "single" card requires a mobo that's designed for 2 cards. The third is purely technical - it may even have 10 gpu's on one board, but if it inherits all the flaws and limitations of 10 discrete cards, then it does not warrant the same name as if the same performance was accomplished by a single gpu. Just like calling it a 1GB card is a half-truth because you can not physically allocate 1GB of memory on it.

I don't agree with the marketing, frankly, but marketing deparments and false impressions are as inseparable as...um...any other things that are inseparable. I don't see what that has to do with an abstract discussion about the 7950GX2.

It's just as pointless to call it a 2-card...card. You can't separate the "cards" and use them individually, nor can you turn just one of the "cards" (i.e. the one with the PCI-E slot iface. on it) and make it anything other than a useless half of a 7950GX2 unless you use a driver hack to make it look like some single-GPU solution.

Your requirements aren't pragmatic enough IMO. I can buy a 7950GX2, pop it in my non-SLI motherboard, use it to run games and benchmarks, and compare the results with a X1900XTX if I want to. In that sense, it's one card, and when it works properly the fact that it has two GPUs is nothing more than a minor implementation detail.

You can recommend (or not recommend) a 7950GX2 as a single card because sans minor issues that's just what it is to a consumer.

I will not get into the list of issues with SLI, but suffice it to say that this wouldnt be the first time when the company promised to get an issue fixed and it never happened.

True, but nVidia is developing this as a limited, high-end product line. You don't do that by leaving longstanding issues. 7900GX2 -> 7950GX2 -> ??? First products are obviously going to have deficiencies, though - like the dual display thing - everyone knows this. I don't know of any company that can release ideal products on the first run.

If you find any 1GHz G7x cores with 512MB 2.4GHz memory, let me know, eh?

They wouldnt ever bother trying to make a single 1ghz core if you already give them the same credit for slapping 2x 500mhz cores together.

I don't give them the same credit. As far as I'm concerned, it's a single card with two 500MHz GPUs. I was merely pointing out that your analogy (i.e. preferring a 5GHz CPU to a 2x2.5GHZ CPU) isn't relevant to this situation because there is simply no existing 1GHz G7x core to be preferred over a 2x500MHz G7x core configuration.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: nullpointerus

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: nullpointerus
IOW you have two criteria for a single card solution:

1) does not use more than one PCB
2) does not require SLI

They're both bull IMO. There are minor practical issues with SLI and 7950GX2, but nVidia will inevitably fix the majority of issues, and those issues aside it doesn't matter to me as long as the 7950GX2 hits decent cost/performance ratio in reputable reviews. Let the fanboys bicker about the specifics of "single card solution."

Then you're really not gonna like my 3rd requirement: it must use a single gpu. The 1st criteria is more based on appearance than technology. The 2nd one remains because no real "single" card requires a mobo that's designed for 2 cards. The third is purely technical - it may even have 10 gpu's on one board, but if it inherits all the flaws and limitations of 10 discrete cards, then it does not warrant the same name as if the same performance was accomplished by a single gpu. Just like calling it a 1GB card is a half-truth because you can not physically allocate 1GB of memory on it.

I don't agree with the marketing, frankly, but marketing deparments and false impressions are as inseparable as...um...any other things that are inseparable. I don't see what that has to do with an abstract discussion about the 7950GX2.

It's just as pointless to call it a 2-card...card. You can't separate the "cards" and use them individually, nor can you turn just one of the "cards" (i.e. the one with the PCI-E slot iface. on it) and make it anything other than a useless half of a 7950GX2 unless you use a driver hack to make it look like some single-GPU solution.

Your requirements aren't pragmatic enough IMO. I can buy a 7950GX2, pop it in my non-SLI motherboard, use it to run games and benchmarks, and compare the results with a X1900XTX if I want to. In that sense, it's one card, and when it works properly the fact that it has two GPUs is nothing more than a minor implementation detail.

You can recommend (or not recommend) a 7950GX2 as a single card because sans minor issues that's just what it is to a consumer.

I will not get into the list of issues with SLI, but suffice it to say that this wouldnt be the first time when the company promised to get an issue fixed and it never happened.

True, but nVidia is developing this as a limited, high-end product line. You don't do that by leaving longstanding issues. 7900GX2 -> 7950GX2 -> ??? First products are obviously going to have deficiencies, though - like the dual display thing - everyone knows this. I don't know of any company that can release ideal products on the first run.

If you find any 1GHz G7x cores with 512MB 2.4GHz memory, let me know, eh?

They wouldnt ever bother trying to make a single 1ghz core if you already give them the same credit for slapping 2x 500mhz cores together.

I don't give them the same credit. As far as I'm concerned, it's a single card with two 500MHz GPUs. I was merely pointing out that your analogy (i.e. preferring a 5GHz CPU to a 2x2.5GHZ CPU) isn't relevant to this situation because there is simply no existing 1GHz G7x core to be preferred over a 2x500MHz G7x core configuration.

As far as the consumer and marketing are concerned, it's one card. But for someone who knows the technology involved behind it, it's still 2 cards slapped together into one package. I actually dont care much who calls it what, but no one is gonne convince me into giving them much credit for slapping 2 gpu's together because they couldn't beat the competition with one gpu.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

The driver path that is invoked is the SLI driver path, not the single GPU path. SLI is a function of multiple GPUs and therefore from a software standpoint it's two cards.

there is no such thing as SLI driver path. SLI software is simply a data distributer that would distribute data thru PCI-e lanes. Software doesn't see "how many GPUs", it sees "how much data should be transmitted thru each of PCI-E's 16 lanes". NV might as well tweaked SLI to see 3 GPUs, and transmitt 2/3 data to 1 GPU and 1/3 to the other GPU. How software is implemented to work with a hardware doesn't label what a piece of hardware actual is.

This is a single card solution because data are transmitted through a single PCI-E slot

If there is no relation why does the 7950GX2 need the SLI driver path to operate?
Why does it need SLI profiles to enable SLI?
If it was truly a single card it would be seamless like any other single card that has auto-load balancing across its pipelines automatically without the need for profiles or SLI activation.
It's a single card from a physical/hardware point of view but it's two cards from a software point of view which is why it needs the SLI driver path to operate.

Incorrect!
As stated above, SLI software is required very much like how WinXP is required to run multiCPU. Software needs to know how to push data evenly to each CPU/GPU to achieve parallelism.

Single GPU, very much like single CPU, doesn't require load balancing, its completely unrelated.

Pipelines render objects received by GPU, but each GPU require its own source of data.
If you call dualcore CPU a 1 1/2 CPU, then go ahead call 7950 a 1 1/2 GPU solution, otherwise, you are only making a fool of yourself.

7950 is a dual-core GPU card.

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: nullpointerus

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: nullpointerus
IOW you have two criteria for a single card solution:

1) does not use more than one PCB
2) does not require SLI

They're both bull IMO. There are minor practical issues with SLI and 7950GX2, but nVidia will inevitably fix the majority of issues, and those issues aside it doesn't matter to me as long as the 7950GX2 hits decent cost/performance ratio in reputable reviews. Let the fanboys bicker about the specifics of "single card solution."

Then you're really not gonna like my 3rd requirement: it must use a single gpu. The 1st criteria is more based on appearance than technology. The 2nd one remains because no real "single" card requires a mobo that's designed for 2 cards. The third is purely technical - it may even have 10 gpu's on one board, but if it inherits all the flaws and limitations of 10 discrete cards, then it does not warrant the same name as if the same performance was accomplished by a single gpu. Just like calling it a 1GB card is a half-truth because you can not physically allocate 1GB of memory on it.

I don't agree with the marketing, frankly, but marketing deparments and false impressions are as inseparable as...um...any other things that are inseparable. I don't see what that has to do with an abstract discussion about the 7950GX2.

It's just as pointless to call it a 2-card...card. You can't separate the "cards" and use them individually, nor can you turn just one of the "cards" (i.e. the one with the PCI-E slot iface. on it) and make it anything other than a useless half of a 7950GX2 unless you use a driver hack to make it look like some single-GPU solution.

Your requirements aren't pragmatic enough IMO. I can buy a 7950GX2, pop it in my non-SLI motherboard, use it to run games and benchmarks, and compare the results with a X1900XTX if I want to. In that sense, it's one card, and when it works properly the fact that it has two GPUs is nothing more than a minor implementation detail.

You can recommend (or not recommend) a 7950GX2 as a single card because sans minor issues that's just what it is to a consumer.

I will not get into the list of issues with SLI, but suffice it to say that this wouldnt be the first time when the company promised to get an issue fixed and it never happened.

True, but nVidia is developing this as a limited, high-end product line. You don't do that by leaving longstanding issues. 7900GX2 -> 7950GX2 -> ??? First products are obviously going to have deficiencies, though - like the dual display thing - everyone knows this. I don't know of any company that can release ideal products on the first run.

If you find any 1GHz G7x cores with 512MB 2.4GHz memory, let me know, eh?

They wouldnt ever bother trying to make a single 1ghz core if you already give them the same credit for slapping 2x 500mhz cores together.

I don't give them the same credit. As far as I'm concerned, it's a single card with two 500MHz GPUs. I was merely pointing out that your analogy (i.e. preferring a 5GHz CPU to a 2x2.5GHZ CPU) isn't relevant to this situation because there is simply no existing 1GHz G7x core to be preferred over a 2x500MHz G7x core configuration.

As far as the consumer and marketing are concerned, it's one card. But for someone who knows the technology involved behind it, it's still 2 cards slapped together into one package. I actually dont care much who calls it what, but no one is gonne convince me into giving them much credit for slapping 2 gpu's together because they couldn't beat the competition with one gpu.

Hello? Who said we had to give credit to ATI or nVidia? Ultimately, the only "credit" that should be given here is price/performance, not a comparatively meaningless argument over the theoretical superiority of single- or multi-GPU-ness. Theory can't trump reality.

And the 7950GX2 is still one card BTW.

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: beggerking

Originally posted by: BFG10K

The driver path that is invoked is the SLI driver path, not the single GPU path. SLI is a function of multiple GPUs and therefore from a software standpoint it's two cards.

there is no such thing as SLI driver path. SLI software is simply a data distributer that would distribute data thru PCI-e lanes. Software doesn't see "how many GPUs", it sees "how much data should be transmitted thru each of PCI-E's 16 lanes". NV might as well tweaked SLI to see 3 GPUs, and transmitt 2/3 data to 1 GPU and 1/3 to the other GPU. How software is implemented to work with a hardware doesn't label what a piece of hardware actual is.

This is a single card solution because data are transmitted through a single PCI-E slot

You two seem to be talking past each other. Clarify the word software. When you use it, do you mean drivers or applications? Drivers most certainly see a difference with the 7950GX2 and configure it as two logical PCI-E devices complete with separate drivers, SLI profiles, etc. That's what the integrated PCI-E switch does.

The drivers then take the two logical PCI-E devices and create one 3D rendering device which is what applications see and communicate with. So, yes, SLI is transparent to the applications that use it. But the drivers must use the SLI rendering multiplexer to send data out to the appropriate GPUs according to the SLI profile.

I fail to see the point of your discussion.

 

[eastvillager]

Originally posted by: CP5670
I would say no, because it still has the same vsync problems as an SLI setup as far as I know.

they fixed vsynch a driver or two ago.

 

[chilled]

Yes, in terms of marketing it is the smallest divisible unit and thus qualifies as a single card. A single card with two chips.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: nullpointerus

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: nullpointerus

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: nullpointerus
IOW you have two criteria for a single card solution:

1) does not use more than one PCB
2) does not require SLI

They're both bull IMO. There are minor practical issues with SLI and 7950GX2, but nVidia will inevitably fix the majority of issues, and those issues aside it doesn't matter to me as long as the 7950GX2 hits decent cost/performance ratio in reputable reviews. Let the fanboys bicker about the specifics of "single card solution."

Then you're really not gonna like my 3rd requirement: it must use a single gpu. The 1st criteria is more based on appearance than technology. The 2nd one remains because no real "single" card requires a mobo that's designed for 2 cards. The third is purely technical - it may even have 10 gpu's on one board, but if it inherits all the flaws and limitations of 10 discrete cards, then it does not warrant the same name as if the same performance was accomplished by a single gpu. Just like calling it a 1GB card is a half-truth because you can not physically allocate 1GB of memory on it.

I don't agree with the marketing, frankly, but marketing deparments and false impressions are as inseparable as...um...any other things that are inseparable. I don't see what that has to do with an abstract discussion about the 7950GX2.

It's just as pointless to call it a 2-card...card. You can't separate the "cards" and use them individually, nor can you turn just one of the "cards" (i.e. the one with the PCI-E slot iface. on it) and make it anything other than a useless half of a 7950GX2 unless you use a driver hack to make it look like some single-GPU solution.

Your requirements aren't pragmatic enough IMO. I can buy a 7950GX2, pop it in my non-SLI motherboard, use it to run games and benchmarks, and compare the results with a X1900XTX if I want to. In that sense, it's one card, and when it works properly the fact that it has two GPUs is nothing more than a minor implementation detail.

You can recommend (or not recommend) a 7950GX2 as a single card because sans minor issues that's just what it is to a consumer.

I will not get into the list of issues with SLI, but suffice it to say that this wouldnt be the first time when the company promised to get an issue fixed and it never happened.

True, but nVidia is developing this as a limited, high-end product line. You don't do that by leaving longstanding issues. 7900GX2 -> 7950GX2 -> ??? First products are obviously going to have deficiencies, though - like the dual display thing - everyone knows this. I don't know of any company that can release ideal products on the first run.

If you find any 1GHz G7x cores with 512MB 2.4GHz memory, let me know, eh?

They wouldnt ever bother trying to make a single 1ghz core if you already give them the same credit for slapping 2x 500mhz cores together.

I don't give them the same credit. As far as I'm concerned, it's a single card with two 500MHz GPUs. I was merely pointing out that your analogy (i.e. preferring a 5GHz CPU to a 2x2.5GHZ CPU) isn't relevant to this situation because there is simply no existing 1GHz G7x core to be preferred over a 2x500MHz G7x core configuration.

As far as the consumer and marketing are concerned, it's one card. But for someone who knows the technology involved behind it, it's still 2 cards slapped together into one package. I actually dont care much who calls it what, but no one is gonne convince me into giving them much credit for slapping 2 gpu's together because they couldn't beat the competition with one gpu.

Hello? Who said we had to give credit to ATI or nVidia? Ultimately, the only "credit" that should be given here is price/performance, not a comparatively meaningless argument over the theoretical superiority of single- or multi-GPU-ness. Theory can't trump reality.

And the 7950GX2 is still one card BTW.

One card to you, two cards slapped together to me. I'm done debating this issue.

 

[eastvillager]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
If you partition a hard drive windows will view it as seperate drives.

No it doesn't. It sees it as one physical drive with multiple partitions. You can assign drive letters to those partitions.

Logical vs. physical.

 

[BFG10K]

here is no such thing as SLI driver path.

Yes there is. It's the path that is invoked when multiple cards are detected.

SLI software is simply a data distributer that would distribute data thru PCI-e lanes.

So you admit there is an SLI driver path then?

Software doesn't see "how many GPUs", it sees "how much data should be transmitted thru each of PCI-E's 16 lanes".

This is nothing more than useless rhetoric and you know it.

NV might as well tweaked SLI to see 3 GPUs, and transmitt 2/3 data to 1 GPU and 1/3 to the other GPU. How software is implemented to work with a hardware doesn't label what a piece of hardware actual is.

What the hell are you talking about?

This is a single card solution because data are transmitted through a single PCI-E slot

No, it's two cards because the single card driver path doesn't work with it.

[*]It needs SLI load balancing.
[*]It needs SLI profiles.
[*]It behaves just like SLI when multiple monitors are detected.
[*]You have the ability to disable/enable SLI in the driver.

A true single card doesn't have any of that since there is no SLI "mode" for it to go into.

Incorrect!

:roll:

As stated above, SLI software is required very much like how WinXP is required to run multiCPU.

Right, so you admit there are two cards now? Your constant flip-flopping is quite tiresome.

Software needs to know how to push data evenly to each CPU/GPU to achieve parallelism.

Something it doesn't need if it truly was a single card.

Single GPU, very much like single CPU, doesn't require load balancing, its completely unrelated.

The hell it's unrelated. The fact that it doesn't require load balancing means it's a single entity unlike something that does.

If you call dualcore CPU a 1 1/2 CPU, then go ahead call 7950 a 1 1/2 GPU solution, otherwise, you are only making a fool of yourself.

I'd class dual-core as two CPUs because it needs SMP code to exploit it unlike a true single CPU which doesn't.

7950 is a dual-core GPU card.

It's two cards combined onto one board and from a software standpoint it's exactly the same as two individual cards installed into the system.

A single 7900GTX doesn't need SLI load balancing accross its 24 pipelines because it's a single card.

The 48 pipelines on the 7950 do need SLI load balancing because they are two cards each consisting of 24 pipelines.

It's not one 48 pipe card no matter how much spin and rhetoric you put on it.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Software doesn't see "how many GPUs", it sees "how much data should be transmitted thru each of PCI-E's 16 lanes".

This is nothing more than useless rhetoric and you know it.

if you think basic knowledge of how software interact with hardware is "useless rhetoric", then there is no need for me to explain to you further. You won't get it..

NV might as well tweaked SLI to see 3 GPUs, and transmitt 2/3 data to 1 GPU and 1/3 to the other GPU. How software is implemented to work with a hardware doesn't label what a piece of hardware actual is.

What the hell are you talking about?

see above comment.

No, it's two cards because the single card driver path doesn't work with it.

[*]It needs SLI load balancing.
[*]It needs SLI profiles.
[*]It behaves just like SLI when multiple monitors are detected.
[*]You have the ability to disable/enable SLI in the driver.

A true single card doesn't have any of that since there is no SLI "mode" for it to go into.

The hell it's unrelated. The fact that it doesn't require load balancing means it's a single entity unlike something that does.

so are you saying dualcore CPU is not a single CPU?

I'd class dual-core as two CPUs because it needs SMP code to exploit it unlike a true single CPU which doesn't
It's two cards combined onto one board and from a software standpoint it's exactly the same as two individual cards installed into the system.

you just said(bolded above) you consider a dual-core as two CPUs, so two cards combined into one board should be considered a dual-core, isn't it?

The 48 pipelines on the 7950 do need SLI load balancing because they are two cards each consisting of 24 pipelines.

It's not one 48 pipe card no matter how much spin and rhetoric you put on it.

WTF are you talking about? I never said anything about 7950 being a 48pipeline card..

 

[Sonikku]

lol. Looking at this poll I'm willing to bet it's only the Nvidia fanboys that actually believe this is a single card, just so they can say Nvidia has a "card" that is superior to the X1900XT. Meh.

 

[BFG10K]

if you think basic knowledge of how software interact with hardware is "useless rhetoric", then there is no need for me to explain to you further. You won't get it..

It's nothing of the sort.

so are you saying dualcore CPU is not a single CPU?

Correct.

The main difference between multi-CPU and multi-core is the number of sockets needed along with some internal bridging differences, much like the 7950GX2 compared to two separate cards.

From a software standpoint it reacts to both situations as two CPUs/GPUs, irrespective of the number of sockets they use. To use the number of sockets as a basis of whether something is single or not is quite simpleton.

you just said(bolded above) you consider a dual-core as two CPUs, so two cards combined into one board should be considered a dual-core, isn't it?

Your conclusion doesn't follow your premise.

I never said anything about 7950 being a 48pipeline card..

So tell me then Beggerking, how many pipelines do you consider it has?

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

so are you saying dualcore CPU is not a single CPU?

Correct.

so, you would say " I would like to buy that 1 1/2 AMD 4800 CPU?..."

So tell me then Beggerking, how many pipelines do you consider 7950 has?

I consider it as having 2 GPUs, each with 24 pipelines. I would expect it to perform < 48 pipeline(texture+shader) 7900gtx at 500mhz. There is always overhead associated with parallelism therefore it'll never match the speed of a 48pipeline 7900gtx.

 

[Smartazz]

Would you be happy if they used one pcb but stuck on two G71's like Asus did with the 7800GT extreme edition, almost guarenteed that ATI will do the same thing as Nvidia has.

 

[BassBomb]

im an nvidia fan boy, and i think its dual card... its just the gigabyte/asus idea of throwing two things on ... cept its not even one pcb !! this is dumb

and the fact they are going to call things with two gpu's "dual core" is stupid

sli/cf dual gpu dual core = rediculous

 

[ArchAngel777]

Holy Cow! The people who have multiple posts in this thread need to get a g/f or something. This is absolutely pathetic to see everyone in here argue over something so silly.

 

[xtknight]

Dual-core CPUs require SMP kernels, just like this dual-GPU card needs the internal processing methods of SLI in order to operate correctly. To the operating system it appears as a SLI solution (depending upon implementation, it sees one or two device IDs), or in the case of dual-core, two CPUs, except in the case of Windows XP's oddball licensing methods. The threading model for both is exactly the same, differing only in physical interconnect and device identification.

 

[Avalon]

When I hear "single card", I think single PCB, which is not the case here. So, I voted no. Though, I understand how anyone could think it either way.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Dual-core CPUs require SMP kernels, just like this dual-GPU card needs the internal processing methods of SLI in order to operate correctly. To the operating system it appears as a SLI solution (depending upon implementation, it sees one or two device IDs), or in the case of dual-core, two CPUs, except in the case of Windows XP's oddball licensing methods. The threading model for both is exactly the same, differing only in physical interconnect and device identification.

Thank you for backing me up. Good to see someone here who actually know the interworks of hardware and software.