Rittenhouse trial to start soon, Judge is laying out rules.

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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Self defense is the correct thing to do, sometimes that requires shooting.
A violent recuperation of the assailants chasing down and assaulting the victim.

I am having a very hard time with the people who oppose recognizing this event for what it was. Because we have absolute clear cut evidence. Beyond ANY doubt. There is no room for interpretation, for what we see with our own eyes. Multiple videos played again and again if necessary. For what witnesses describe. It all fits together for self defense. Yet there you stand, and for your credit you are not alone. It is a group thing.

That an entire political party can rally themselves behind a brazen public lynching, this day, in 2021....

That is a difference I cannot tolerate. My countrymen want to kill a teen, and when they fail... they knowingly lie before a Court to try and finish the job for their fellows. To take a life. For daring to survive a rioting mob trying to lynch him. That elicits a rage and words serve no purpose here, other than to express the tip of the iceberg for what your actions mean. The gap between us is insurmountable if you cannot watch the videos and correctly tell us who attacked whom.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you keep overlooking the fact that the law states that a claim of self-defense is invalid if one is an instigator to the altercation.
Which is something that the entire Republican party does seem to be behind, yes. They seem to firmly believe that they should be able to pick a fight, hope for someone to take the challenge, and then kill that someone and claim self-defense. Because that shit keeps happening, and even though the law says that is manslaughter.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,076
2,635
136
The guy created the situation. I can't go over to my neighbors house, shove him a bunch of times and then shoot him when he finally swings and claim self defense. This situation is pretty much exactly the same.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,041
136
I'm sure Maxima has convinced himself that KR just wanted to play EMT but EMTs don't have rifles as part of their life-saving kit.
He wanted to help people, that's why he failed to help anyone he shot that night.
 

rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
4,433
3,221
146
The guy created the situation. I can't go over to my neighbors house, shove him a bunch of times and then shoot him when he finally swings and claim self defense. This situation is pretty much exactly the same.

That‘s not even close, be serious.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Attempting to disarm someone after previously uttering threats and then chasing them can easily create a reasonable belief of bodily harm.
Which is why Rittenhouse's motives for going there armed are relevant.

We also have the issue of armed shooters and the inability to readily discern a "good guy" from a "bad guy."

My own motive here is that we need less violence on our streets. And contrary to some popular opinion, armed vigilantes create violence, not prevent it.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,041
136
Attempting to disarm someone after previously uttering threats and then chasing them can easily create a reasonable belief of bodily harm.
We only have Kyle's word that Rosenbaum attempted to disarm him (Kyle has shown a propensity to lie) and no definitive proof Rosenbaum actually touched the rifle, only that one of his hands was close to the muzzle at some point.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,079
10,757
136
For anyone who didn't already know this is a show trial.

How bout it. Every time the prosecutor made a point or trapped Rittenhouse in a lie, judge Ricky fucking Schroeder intervenes to stop him. More so, after Rittenhouse's emotional crying jag or failed academy award performance which did not impress or fool anyone other than his cheerleaders. He was not an EMT, he was not enrolled at Arizona University, the police did not give him his bullet proof vest. He was not a member of the fire department. A kangaroo court in a third world country. This is one of the most egregious examples of the lack of equal justice in this country that I have ever witnessed. Interrupting the cross examination to joke about the temperature. Appointing the biggest clown judge in Wisconsin for this case - Who'd a thunk it. This judge is known for being a complete asshole, and hands down bizarre punishments This idiot is why we need term limits for judges. The whole thing is a clown show. Even the prosecutor is a fucking clown bringing up Kyle's COD kill count. Barnum & Bailey had nothing compared to these clowns. The idea that prior acts can't be allowed in a trial is ludicrous. A saying comes to mind - "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time". "Justice" in America is becoming just a system of money, favors and human farming for profit.

And ... Who are we kidding here. This kid can't get convicted and go to jail. He just can't. This kid is a hero to the Republicans and the hardcore gun culture that have no problems with underage immature children, with no military or police training or civil authority markings, who chose to insert himself into a dangerous situation where he had no business being while traveling to from his safe space. All so he could play a babyface vigilante and "defend" this "so called" property he did not own. Way to much money tied up in this kid. To many connections and political narratives and capital at stake. The Republican politicians in Wisconsin can't have this kid going to jail or face any consequences for what he did. Getting convicted and going to jail would show what he did was wrong. Can't have that. Going to jail would put the kibosh on the expected whirlwind tour at Trump rallies. Expect Rittenhouse to be acquitted and then start appearing at republican rallies, on Fox, Newsmax and OANN. The kid has money to make and fame to bask in. The people hailing Rittenhouse as a good ol’ American boy who had the guts to stand up to lawbreakers are only doing so because they’re OK with the type of people he killed. Whoever is all in on the Rittenhouse-as-a-hero narrative, the three men he gunned down were not just people on the opposite side of the ideological fence — they were the enemy. When the federalist society member judge shows up at Rittenhouse's acquittal party, high-fiving the defense attorneys - he'll say "We have to look after and protect one of our own." His mommy enabled his behavior, now the judge and system is doing the same. Rittenhouse is smug, emboldened & he is learning that the system will be on his side. Hopefully all this judicial interference backfires. If the jury is unbiased, they should see this charade for what it is. A principled juror would want no part in this.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,742
17,395
136
Attempting to disarm someone after previously uttering threats and then chasing them can easily create a reasonable belief of bodily harm.

Someone with a gun can also create an easily reasonable belief of bodily harm for someone not with a gun.

I mean if we take a poll of what people fear most, do you think the majority would fear someone with a gun or someone who made threats to someone with a gun?
 
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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,079
10,757
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You hate KR for political reasons and would happily see him spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Why would anyone "hate" this kid? There's just SO much to like here ...

Let's see ..

He's on video stating how he want's to shoot looters and shoplifters and then - low and behold, there he is, days later - traveling to a place - arming himself with a rifle shooting people he most likely thinks are looters and shoplifters - But it is somehow unreasonable to think he just might be there to shoot people

Hanging out with white supremacists flashing white power signs. But it is somehow unreasonable to think this kid just might be a racist. Flaunting his situation while sporting his "free as fuck" T shirt. Underage drinking with racists. One just might get the impression this kid is headed down the wrong path, don't ya think?

Punching and beating on women. There's something you aspire your teenager to take part in. Bullying and violent behavior towards women. One just might think this kid has some behavioral issues and just might be headed down the wrong path.

Just growing up lying his ass off. Another wonderful trait you hope your kid learns throughout his teen years. One just might get a bad impression of said teenager and conclude this is a kid headed down the wrong path

Just the type of kid you'd want your teenage daughter dating.

I don't "hate" the kid. But reasonable people just might come to the conclusion he's a disgusting little shit
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,549
761
146
Which was dumb, because believing you're in your own apartment is no defense for shooting and killing the lawful occupant. As the outcome of that case proved.

I was saying either acquittal or manslaughter. The case didn't really prove your position on it, since despite labeling it as "murder" (they went with it since she said she had "intent to kill"), she was sentenced as if it was manslaughter. The jury didn't buy the prosecution's argument.

However, my point was that you asking people to afford Rittenhouse the reasonable doubt that, to my knowledge, you have never afforded to any black victim of police brutality discussed here. Or even to Rittenhouse's own victims.

I'm asking you to actually apply the standards. Provocation in Wisconsin requires unlawful actions of the type to provoke an attack. Being underage with a rifle is not a provocation. Putting out fires is not provocation. The prosecution's case is so flimsy they're desperately trying to suggest that Kyle pointed the gun at Ziminski all over blurry blobs.

They're pretending to see Kyle raise the gun, yet every other angle of video with actual clarity never shows this, and there are oddities with the image (left-hand stance, "arm" supporting "rifle" is actually background object). They're trying to railroad the kid with bullshit.


oh_look_jpg-2163513.JPG



Sure, KR shouldn't be on trial when people are dead as a direct result of his choice to break the law that night.

Do you even know what's happening with the trial?


"Now it's a fair fight," said Patrick Cafferty, a criminal defense attorney in Wisconsin, referring to the lift the ruling would give the prosecution. "Without that instruction they would have zero chance."

The judge allowed it in despite the still images/video where the images are derived showing nothing of the sort, and nobody but the prosecution and a cop with a Apple ipad will testify to it. This trial is so stupid.

If he didn't break the law that night those people would have still been alive. If he didn't choose to break the law that night he would have never been in a position where he had to "defend himself."

The same can be said about the other 3. Illegal assault and vigilantism.

Rosenbaum had a death wish and the other two were vigilantes. Why do progressives say rapists need to change but almost every other criminal act they need to be coddled?

The guy created the situation. I can't go over to my neighbors house, shove him a bunch of times and then shoot him when he finally swings and claim self defense. This situation is pretty much exactly the same.

The law is specific about what counts as provocation, which he did not cross. Why do progressives say rapists need to change but almost every other criminal act they need to be coddled?

We only have Kyle's word that Rosenbaum attempted to disarm him (Kyle has shown a propensity to lie) and no definitive proof Rosenbaum actually touched the rifle, only that one of his hands was close to the muzzle at some point.

It's self-evident in the videos. Also the autopsy photos and McGinnis testimony. Prosecution also needs around ~95% or more likelihood. This crap from you guys is no different from Trumper shit. This is what you guys do when you're biased FOR the defendant.


I don't "hate" the kid. But reasonable people just might come to the conclusion he's a disgusting little shit

Then so were Rosenbaum, Gaige, and Huber. So who was in the right if they're all disgusting little shits?
 

rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
4,433
3,221
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Which is why Rittenhouse's motives for going there armed are relevant.

We also have the issue of armed shooters and the inability to readily discern a "good guy" from a "bad guy."

My own motive here is that we need less violence on our streets. And contrary to some popular opinion, armed vigilantes create violence, not prevent it.

I don’t think KR going there was very smart at all. That being said, no one really knows what was in his head but him. I think him and Rosenbaum are both idiots and it’s too bad anyone lost their life to stupidity.

We only have Kyle's word that Rosenbaum attempted to disarm him (Kyle has shown a propensity to lie) and no definitive proof Rosenbaum actually touched the rifle, only that one of his hands was close to the muzzle at some point.

That’s close enough to an attempted disarm, do you have to get in a struggle for the gun before you can defend yourself? No.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,742
17,395
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I don’t think KR going there was very smart at all. That being said, no one really knows what was in his head but him. I think him and Rosenbaum are both idiots and it’s too bad anyone lost their life to stupidity.



That’s close enough to an attempted disarm, do you have to get in a struggle for the gun before you can defend yourself? No.

Does someone grabbing a gun away from someone automatically mean the person with the gun has the right to shoot them? So basically a person with a gun is always right? Is that the takeaway you were after?
 
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dlerious

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2004
2,220
993
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You have another plausible explanation for why he drove for hours across a state line and illegally obtained a rifle in order to get in the middle of a riot if it wasn't for the chance to kill someone?
He lived about 20 miles away. He'd have to walk for it to take hours.
 
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dlerious

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2004
2,220
993
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Does someone grabbing a gun away from someone automatically mean the person with the gun has the right to shoot them? So basically a person with a gun is always right? Is that the takeaway you were after?
If someone told me they were going to kill me and they grabbed for my gun, my first thought is they intend to carry out their threat.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,742
17,395
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If someone told me they were going to kill me and they grabbed for my gun, my first thought is they intend to carry out their threat.

So KR was personally threatened and immediately attacked by the same person?
 

dlerious

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2004
2,220
993
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Sure, KR shouldn't be on trial when people are dead as a direct result of his choice to break the law that night. If he didn't break the law that night those people would have still been alive. If he didn't choose to break the law that night he would have never been in a position where he had to "defend himself."
Rosenbaum was a prohibited person, meaning it was illegal for him to possess a firearm. I guess if he didn't break the law he wouldn't be in the position he's in.
 
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Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
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He lived about 20 miles away. He'd have to walk for it to take hours.

So he was quite aware it was illegal for him to possess the weapon he used, right? He wasn’t under adult supervision nor hunting nor at a range…all places he could’ve used the rifle legally, assuming adult supervision.

In my mind, he started off with a criminal act and deservedly should’ve been shot, according to Maxipad and others…we do shoot criminals, right?
 

dlerious

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2004
2,220
993
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So he was quite aware it was illegal for him to possess the weapon he used, right? He wasn’t under adult supervision nor hunting nor at a range…all places he could’ve used the rifle legally, assuming adult supervision.

In my mind, he started off with a criminal act and deservedly should’ve been shot, according to Maxipad and others…we do shoot criminals, right?
Only as a last resort. Even the police don't routinely shoot criminals.
 
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Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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You know Maxima has a speeding ticket, thereby making him a criminal, so shooting him on sight would be cool. That’s exactly what Maxima is pleading for, obviously.

I'm not the one who believes if you do X (e.g. "Free as fuck" shirt), then you are guilty beyond a reasonable for given crime. QED .This is constantly coming up in these threads on Rittenhouse and elsewhere. I wanted to point out that if Rittenhouse must have bad intent for X, then why isn't Gaige/Huber/Rosenbaum for X/Y?

So he was quite aware it was illegal for him to possess the weapon he used, right? He wasn’t under adult supervision nor hunting nor at a range…all places he could’ve used the rifle legally, assuming adult supervision.

In my mind, he started off with a criminal act and deservedly should’ve been shot, according to Maxipad and others…we do shoot criminals, right?

There is apparently an exception that Kyle fell under, so the charge is going to be dropped. Law was made with more concern about handguns.


The judge in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial on Friday said he'll instruct the jury that unless the state proved the teen's AR-15-style rifle had an unlawfully short barrel, he can't be convicted of being a minor in possession of a firearm.

It obviously was a standard rifle barrel. Might just be free as fuck. XD
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,616
33,335
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Rosenbaum was a prohibited person, meaning it was illegal for him to possess a firearm. I guess if he didn't break the law he wouldn't be in the position he's in.
Strange how you guys are okay with extra judicial execution of liberals for literally any petty crime but default to innocent until proven guilty in a court of law for conservatives no matter how severe the charges.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,911
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The supporters of armchair vigilante Rittenhouse are cool with his actions but when all of a sudden everyone on the street turned into vigilantes, now it's a problem?

Make up your minds. Either vigilantism is ok or it isn't.