NWN2 Feed Back and Patch Discussion Thread

[DaveSimmons]

> By the way, there's a massive stack of fan made modules available now. See here

> Its only been a few months, it took NWN1 some time to build a its masses of user mods.

Agreed, I'm just pointing out that right now the "massive stack" is not anything playable.

I'm tempted to load up PS:T, BG, or FO1-2 again, or finally give KOTOR2 a chance despite all the missing pieces.

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
> By the way, there's a massive stack of fan made modules available now. See here

> Its only been a few months, it took NWN1 some time to build a its masses of user mods.

Agreed, I'm just pointing out that right now the "massive stack" is not anything playable.

I'm tempted to load up PS:T, BG, or FO1-2 again, or finally give KOTOR2 a chance despite all the missing pieces.

I've been following these guys for a while. They replaced several missing pieces of the game, and have some lofty goals of adding additional content to the game.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
( While I wait ) I'm tempted to load up PS:T, BG, or FO1-2 again, or finally give KOTOR2 a chance despite all the missing pieces.

I've been following these guys for a while. They replaced several missing pieces of the game, and have some lofty goals of adding additional content to the game.

Thanks, I'd heard about that but didn't know what the site was.

It's bittersweet news though: "we're going to fix it" (woohoo!) "no, you can't play the fixed version until we fix every minor glitch. Come back in a few months." (D'OH!)

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: apoppin
WRONG. The *other* good RPGs that are ALSO based on a FPS [or "all-purpose"] Engine are - to name a few RECENT ones are: VtMB/Oblivion/G3/Fable/DM M&M

and the only *good* [recent] Top down RPG i can think of is KoTOR [period]

The best RPGs ever created have all been top down perspectives, including those on Hall of Fame lists. KoTOR1 was good, but its short campaign and lack of user content really limits it, not to mention that most of the characters are pointless. All you need to beat the game, utterly destroying all opponents, are the Jedi characters.

Your list of good RPGs based on FPS engines is pretty sad, considering that only VTMB is an RPG. Since you can't actually engage in dialogue in Oblivion, it does not qualify as an RPG, also its lack of good NPCs. Its a thinly veiled FPS. DMofM&M also suffered that same flaw, no real dialogue, NPCs, etc. I didn't play Gothic 3 yet, but if its similar to previous Gothic titles, it also barely qualifies as an RPG. While it has memorable NPCs with distinctive personalities, your dialogue with them was extremely limited. I also didn't play Fable, but a game that you can beat in 6 hours, or 8 if you do all the side quests, relegates in the 'lite' category in my book.

Its sad what qualifies as an RPG these days, 8 hour long hack fests with no story, characters, conversation, plots, etc. And to add insult to injury, the majority of people go right along with it, buying and raving about how cool it is to hack goblins and demons with a sword. *Sigh* I miss Planescape: Torment.

Oh, 1 more thing, Apoppin, lets run down the list of 'good' top down RPGs. Baldur's Gate 1, Baldur's Gate 2, Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Planescape Torment, Neverwinter Nights 1, and those are just titles made by Bioware and the defunct Black Isle Studios.

IF VtMB is an RPG then so is Deus Ex/DE-IW


and

i said *recent*
:Q

KoTOR/SL is the only RECENT one that i am familiar with

and PS:T is coming for me to play for the first time ... i am SO looking forward to 6x8 max resolution ... very recent ...


and your "definition" of RPG is extraordinarily *narrow* ... neither Fable nor DM M&M were very short - unless you just ran thru the MQ with a walkthru in hand ...
DM M&M had TWO different endings with two alternates each.
Fable took me over THIRTY hours and i ONLY played as *good* and didn't waste ANY time but found *everything*
:shocked:

your opinion conflicts with 99% of today's opinion ... you are out of date and stuck in the mud

ANY of these "hack fests" were ten times better then the confused and buggy crap that was served up as NWN2

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: apoppin

IF VtMB is an RPG then so is Deus Ex/DE-IW


and

i said *recent*
:Q

KoTOR/SL is the only RECENT one that i am familiar with

and PS:T is coming for me to play for the first time ... i am SO looking forward to 6x8 max resolution ... very recent ...


and your "definition" of RPG is extraordinarily *narrow* ... neither Fable nor DM M&M were very short - unless you just ran thru the MQ with a walkthru in hand ...
DM M&M had TWO different endings with two alternates each.
Fable took me over THIRTY hours and i ONLY played as *good* and didn't waste ANY time but found *everything*
:shocked:

your opinion conflicts with 99% of today's opinion ... you are out of date and stuck in the mud

ANY of these "hack fests" were ten times better then the confused and buggy crap that was served up as NWN2[/quote]

You're over exaggerating the bugs in NWN2. At its 1.0 release, it was buggy, at the current 1.05, its very playable. I am not defending the release of buggy games here, understand that, but Obsidian was under tremendous pressure by the cash strapped Interplay to release asap. I don't think publishers understand that a well polished game will sell better than a rough title. OE has fixed a plethora of bugs, and they're sticking with the title, improving it with every patch. NWN1 went through a similar process, though its bugs weren't as severe as NWN2.

Dues Ex is a FPS with RP elements. It was a successful blend and an enjoyable game, but not a pure RPG. I never played IW, heard too many negative things about it.

I've got numerous reports, including several game review sites, that said Fable could be beaten in 6 hours, and 8 if you spent time doing all the side quests. I don't know what you did to invest 30 hours. 30 hours still qualifies as a short game, unfortunately. I'm still mystified on how you spent 1000 hours in Oblivion. Once the thrill of the pretty engine wore off, I got bored after a mere 12 hours.

DM M&M having 2 endings doesn't qualify it as an RPG. BG2:ToB had a total of 4 possible endings that I remember, PST had 6 that I found. And each would yield a completely different game depending on which party members you took with you.

The reason my opinion conflicts with today's opinion is why RPG titles are becoming super dumbed down. You won't see another PST with its rich, plentiful dialogue and intricate story lines for every party member. Even 8 years after its release, there still isn't a game that allows you to talk to your party members at the same level. BG2 and NWN2 are probably the closest, but they fall short. The plus side is that the influence system of NWN2 is a good step in the right direction, but I digress.

Hack-fests are boring after the first half hour, all of them. The last hack fest that I was able to play through to the end was IWD1. I played through most of IWD2, but a hard drive failure caused the loss of all my save games and I didn't want to start from scratch. As much as I want to play through it again, I've got no time. IWD1&2 offered party based combat that hasn't been found since. Battles were like a well played game of chess and often extremely difficult because you had to balance your party members. A solo hack and slash title can't offer the same experience or level of tactics.

 

[shortylickens]

I love starting shiat! :laugh:

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: apoppin

IF VtMB is an RPG then so is Deus Ex/DE-IW


and

i said *recent*
:Q

KoTOR/SL is the only RECENT one that i am familiar with

and PS:T is coming for me to play for the first time ... i am SO looking forward to 6x8 max resolution ... very recent ...


and your "definition" of RPG is extraordinarily *narrow* ... neither Fable nor DM M&M were very short - unless you just ran thru the MQ with a walkthru in hand ...
DM M&M had TWO different endings with two alternates each.
Fable took me over THIRTY hours and i ONLY played as *good* and didn't waste ANY time but found *everything*
:shocked:

your opinion conflicts with 99% of today's opinion ... you are out of date and stuck in the mud

ANY of these "hack fests" were ten times better then the confused and buggy crap that was served up as NWN2

You're over exaggerating the bugs in NWN2. At its 1.0 release, it was buggy, at the current 1.05, its very playable. I am not defending the release of buggy games here, understand that, but Obsidian was under tremendous pressure by the cash strapped Interplay to release asap. I don't think publishers understand that a well polished game will sell better than a rough title. OE has fixed a plethora of bugs, and they're sticking with the title, improving it with every patch. NWN1 went through a similar process, though its bugs weren't as severe as NWN2.

Dues Ex is a FPS with RP elements. It was a successful blend and an enjoyable game, but not a pure RPG. I never played IW, heard too many negative things about it.

I've got numerous reports, including several game review sites, that said Fable could be beaten in 6 hours, and 8 if you spent time doing all the side quests. I don't know what you did to invest 30 hours. 30 hours still qualifies as a short game, unfortunately. I'm still mystified on how you spent 1000 hours in Oblivion. Once the thrill of the pretty engine wore off, I got bored after a mere 12 hours.

DM M&M having 2 endings doesn't qualify it as an RPG. BG2:ToB had a total of 4 possible endings that I remember, PST had 6 that I found. And each would yield a completely different game depending on which party members you took with you.

The reason my opinion conflicts with today's opinion is why RPG titles are becoming super dumbed down. You won't see another PST with its rich, plentiful dialogue and intricate story lines for every party member. Even 8 years after its release, there still isn't a game that allows you to talk to your party members at the same level. BG2 and NWN2 are probably the closest, but they fall short. The plus side is that the influence system of NWN2 is a good step in the right direction, but I digress.

Hack-fests are boring after the first half hour, all of them. The last hack fest that I was able to play through to the end was IWD1. I played through most of IWD2, but a hard drive failure caused the loss of all my save games and I didn't want to start from scratch. As much as I want to play through it again, I've got no time. IWD1&2 offered party based combat that hasn't been found since. Battles were like a well played game of chess and often extremely difficult because you had to balance your party members. A solo hack and slash title can't offer the same experience or level of tactics.[/quote]you are minimizing the bugs in NWN2 ...

and enough already with your "pure" RPG elitist attitude

Fable is an extraordinary RPG ... yes it is RPG ... with depth ... and an extraordinary and coherent story ... sure you can *run* thru it ... so what? ... its those speed-moron's loss

and you *can* beat the MQ in Oblivion in Less than an hour by exploiting a glitch ... or spend HUNDREDS of hours exploring that awesome world ... that does not take away the FACT that it IS rpg or that it's story is much more logical than NWN2 ... and just as *deep* ... most of the characters in NWN2 are also *irrelevalent* ... more so than in KoTOR

*you* called VtMB a *RPG* ... IF that is TRUE, then DeusEx is ALSO a RPG ... they are *identical* in the way you upgrade your character skills with the same level of story and dialog options ... in Vampire, you get more options to choose your character. AND DE-IW is also an excellent RPG hybred in its own right

just because *you* don't like what you call "hack fests" does NOT mean they are boring to the rest of us ... or inferior in ANY way to your examples - just different. :lips:

and i will get to play one of your "classics" - PS:T - probably next week .. so i will fully explore the dialog options to see what you mean.

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: apoppin

and i will get to play one of your "classics" - PS:T - probably next week .. so i will fully explore the dialog options to see what you mean.

As soon as you get out of the Mortuary, make your way to Ragpicker's Square to see the midwife, she'll train you as a mage. A mage with high INT, WIS, and CHR will get all the best dialogue, story, and spells.

And Oblivion's story was very dull and predictable. Oblivion is a FPS with melee combat and skill trees. There's no party members to interact with, there's no interactive conversation anywhere in the game. I will concede that several mods have added interactive conversation though. Oblivion is definitely one of the best looking games ever made, and made even better through the use of 3rd party packs, but its not a case study in how to make an RPG. PS:T is.

See my other thread on the Planescape Trilogy from Rogue Dao studios. That was importable enough to warrant its own thread.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: apoppin

and i will get to play one of your "classics" - PS:T - probably next week .. so i will fully explore the dialog options to see what you mean.

As soon as you get out of the Mortuary, make your way to Ragpicker's Square to see the midwife, she'll train you as a mage. A mage with high INT, WIS, and CHR will get all the best dialogue, story, and spells.

And Oblivion's story was very dull and predictable. Oblivion is a FPS with melee combat and skill trees. There's no party members to interact with, there's no interactive conversation anywhere in the game. I will concede that several mods have added interactive conversation though. Oblivion is definitely one of the best looking games ever made, and made even better through the use of 3rd party packs, but its not a case study in how to make an RPG. PS:T is.

See my other thread on the Planescape Trilogy from Rogue Dao studios. That was importable enough to warrant its own thread.

do i have to play a mage in PS:T?



seriously ... thanks for the tips!

don't even get me started on Oblivion again ... it IS *RPG* ... with a *solid* story --continuing TES story.
[role playing game] ... just not "party D&D rpg" ... what you call *pure*


but you totally lost me with your "other thread" comment on PS:T from Rogue Dao studios.

ANYway, i am in Chinatown in VtMB ... *fun* game winding down ... it so *reminds* me of DeusEx ... another "RPG" that is probably incorrectly called a "hybrid" ... DE is also RPG ... character customization and specialized upgradeability with *choices* that affect the other NPCs and the story ... just like Bloodlines.


so ... we shall agree to disagree on what makes a "RPG" ... but i an SO looking forward to PS:T ... everyone has recommended it!


and for heaven's sake, Pick up Fable:LC ... one of the *best* stories in any game - RPG or otherwise - that i have ever played [NOT top down "party RPG" but an excellent game in its own right ... and NOT at all *short*]
:heart:

 

[Mem]

don't even get me started on Oblivion again ... it IS *RPG* ... with a *solid* story --continuing TES story.
[role playing game] ... just not "party D&D rpg" ... what you call *pure*

WOW!....apoppin you really have dropped your standards,I would never class the story as solid or even a story,more like a chapter where the writer run out of ideas and forgot to ask his 6 year old daughter for help,if you want a story try Morrowind .

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Mem

don't even get me started on Oblivion again ... it IS *RPG* ... with a *solid* story --continuing TES story.
[role playing game] ... just not "party D&D rpg" ... what you call *pure*

WOW!....apoppin you really have dropped your standards,I would never class the story as solid or even a story,more like a chapter where the writer run out of ideas and forgot to ask his 6 year old daughter for help,if you want a story try Morrowind .

sure i have a nvidia card now

and that is coming from someone who *recommended* gothic 3 and NWN2
:Q

don't confuse *solid* with "superb" or "excellent" ... G3 has both a better Story and Combat than Oblivion ... but is falls into a confused mess at the end ... NWN2 is a silly story by "committee". Fable's story otoh, would be superb or excellent - imo


and did you *ever* read the in-game Oblivion 200 page 5 volume "The Real Berezeniah" as i suggested oh so long ago?
:lips:

that is a *real story*, well-written fantasy-fiction giving the background for Oblivion - it's "Place" in TES story ... that even G3 and especially NWN2 could never touch

Morrowind ... morrowind .. blah blah blah ...
there are many that *hated* that game
:laugh:

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Mem

don't even get me started on Oblivion again ... it IS *RPG* ... with a *solid* story --continuing TES story.
[role playing game] ... just not "party D&D rpg" ... what you call *pure*

WOW!....apoppin you really have dropped your standards,I would never class the story as solid or even a story,more like a chapter where the writer run out of ideas and forgot to ask his 6 year old daughter for help,if you want a story try Morrowind .

sure i have a nvidia card now

and that is coming from someone who *recommended* gothic 3 and NWN2
:Q

don't confuse *solid* with "superb" or "excellent" ... G3 has both a better Story and Combat than Oblivion ... but is falls into a confused mess at the end ... NWN2 is a silly story by "committee". Fable's story otoh, would be superb or excellent - imo


and did you *ever* read the in-game Oblivion 200 page 5 volume "The Real Berezeniah" as i suggested oh so long ago?
:lips:

that is a *real story* ... that even G3 and especially NWN2 could never touch

You must have a very short memory m8,KOTOR,Bloodlines etc.. you forgot them ,personally the best story I would have to say is the one in Planescape Torment,"ah good old days" they don't make them like that nowadays.

Right now apoppin I'm replaying Baldur's Gate 1 with expansion pack (started right at the beginning again too). I'm holding off on Oblivion until the next exp pack.

 

[apoppin]

i ain't done with Bloodlines - yet ... it is also *starting* to feel like the devs also ran out of ideas and are giving my Gangrel a *shopping list* ... a lot of quests are Fluff and and it doesn't advance *the story* like the first half did

kinda like DeusEx ... with another good story i *didn't* mention ...
. . . *good story?* .. even PREY has a "good story" for a FPS .. or Riddick ... or Thief Series
:roll:

i haven't *forgotten* KotOR ... the *best* D&D RPS i have ever played ... it simply wasn't brought up in the examples being discussed [this time]

and i *will* play PS:T -- if it every arrives from Canada ... slow boat i think

you'll hear all about it ... stay tuned
:beer:

EDIT - OP, i see what you mean about PS:T and Rogue Dao
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=33&threadid=2014815&enterthread=y

 

[Bateluer]

Bloodlines could have been a contender for a Hall of Fame title, but Activision F'ed it up for Troika. 6 months prior to the game's release, Activision laid off 3/4ths of Troika's staff. From that point until release, almost no work was done on the game. After the release, Activision only allowed Troika to release one patch. Thankfully, it fixed the serious game ending bug, but unfortunately, it left a multitude of other bugs. After that, Activision shut down Troika. Bastards.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
Bloodlines could have been a contender for a Hall of Fame title, but Activision F'ed it up for Troika. 6 months prior to the game's release, Activision laid off 3/4ths of Troika's staff. From that point until release, almost no work was done on the game. After the release, Activision only allowed Troika to release one patch. Thankfully, it fixed the serious game ending bug, but unfortunately, it left a multitude of other bugs. After that, Activision shut down Troika. Bastards.

i have heard this story over-and-over

what i *don't understand* is what did Troika *do* in the almost one year they "sat on it" and just waited for HL2 to be released?


and *damn* i think i'm almost done with VtMB ... it's really kinda 'easy'
:Q



i feel kinda sad at the end of every really good game
:brokenheart:

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: apoppin

what i *don't understand* is what did Troika *do* in the almost one year they "sat on it" and just waited for HL2 to be released?

They didn't have the staff to do anything with the game.

 

[mundane]

I've only read the last page, so forgive me if it's already been mentioned, but GoGamer has NWN2 for ~$25 today.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: apoppin

what i *don't understand* is what did Troika *do* in the almost one year they "sat on it" and just waited for HL2 to be released?

They didn't have the staff to do anything with the game.

what a waste ... and a genuinely stupid business decision ... get 95% done ... and stop.
:thumbsdown:

i expect the decision was political ... someone in power didn't like someone else.

anyway ... i am on what looks to be the last SQ and heading for the MQ's Ending at a Mansion . . .
... with a Flamethrower!
:Q

do i want it? .. the *only* think i lacked was money ... VtMB is pretty easy.

Btw ... what is this thread about?

 

[Bateluer]

The 1.05 patch will be released very soon, so I'll post about that when it goes live.

I'll also bump the Planescape thread when its released at the end of this month.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
The 1.05 patch will be released very soon, so I'll post about that when it goes live.

I'll also bump the Planescape thread when its released at the end of this month.

are you still actively playing NWN2? mods, etc?

--to see the difference between the patchs?

--if so that is a nice service!


and a really long-lasting thread

congratulations

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Bateluer
The 1.05 patch will be released very soon, so I'll post about that when it goes live.

I'll also bump the Planescape thread when its released at the end of this month.

are you still actively playing NWN2? mods, etc?

--to see the difference between the patchs?

--if so that is a nice service!


and a really long-lasting thread

congratulations

you've been a contributor too

i've been playing a little bit online

 

[Bateluer]

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=552777&forum=109

More 1.05 tidbits

 

[Schadenfroh]

So much for a patch a month...

but I would rather them wait until it is finished instead of pulling an EA / Atari

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
So much for a patch a month...

but I would rather them wait until it is finished instead of pulling an EA / Atari

wait ... they are ATARi

is says Atari in demon red letters right on the NWN2 box
:Q

damn them back to the abyss
:evil:

--this *interruption* brought to you by apoppin

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
So much for a patch a month...

but I would rather them wait until it is finished instead of pulling an EA / Atari

wait ... they are ATARi

I worded that joke too poorly.