NWN2 Feed Back and Patch Discussion Thread

[Ultralight]

From everything I have been reading the game engine is sloppy. With the pressure to create and publish a game with such time restraints there is little wonder why good game coding is becoming rare by the day. The motto is: "Get it out now and patch afterwards."

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Ultralight
From everything I have been reading the game engine is sloppy. With the pressure to create and publish a game with such time restraints there is little wonder why good game coding is becoming rare by the day. The motto is: "Get it out now and patch afterwards."

the game's fans won't admit it

and they are waiting for the fan made content

[which will still run like crap until the engine is optimized - if ever]

i am gonna list NWN2 in my ForSale game list along with my new AGP x1950p/512M tomorrow or thurs ...
i will never return to it.

i sincerely hope atari goes out of business ... again
which is probably impossible unless we lose their parent company also
... but i can dream:moon:

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: apoppin

sure it was ... is
--for most of us

Seems like just a handful of people in this thread had overwhelming problems. Everyone else only experienced minor, if any, problems.

Even us fans of the game admit that Obsidian didn't do a very good job coding the engine. It was sloppy and poorly optimized. However, you need to give them credit for fixing it, thus far they have stuck to their patch a month promise they made by in November. Had this been an EA game, There would have patch 1.01, possibly 1.02, and the game would have been declared finished.

By the way, there's a massive stack of fan made modules available now. See here

 

[apoppin]

you gotta admit OP ... us *dissenters* have brought a LOT of attention to 'your' game



i hope they fix it

 

[Mem]

Is there going to be an expansion pack for NWN2 ?

 

[Crafty35a]

I haven't seen any official word, but I have no doubt that there will be at least a couple of expansions.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Mem
Is there going to be an expansion pack for NWN2 ?

Obsidian is busy the the Alien RPG, sales are not spectacular for NWN2, Atari will either contract someone besides Obsidian to make one or just not create one at all. Your best bet will be the community made modules.

 

[Ultralight]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Mem
Is there going to be an expansion pack for NWN2 ?

Obsidian is busy the the Alien RPG, sales are not spectacular for NWN2, Atari will either contract someone besides Obsidian to make one or just not create one at all. Your best bet will be the community made modules.

Schadenfroh, do you know where one can get info on actual game sales of NWN2? Has it broken even yet?

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Ultralight

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Mem
Is there going to be an expansion pack for NWN2 ?

Obsidian is busy the the Alien RPG, sales are not spectacular for NWN2, Atari will either contract someone besides Obsidian to make one or just not create one at all. Your best bet will be the community made modules.

Schadenfroh, do you know where one can get info on actual game sales of NWN2? Has it broken even yet?

GameSpot posts sales data for each week (at sometimes irregular intervals). But, it is the top 10 PC games, recall that console games far outsell PC games.

 

[shortylickens]

I REALLY wish companies would just use older, preestablished engines when making new games.
The Source, Unreal 2, LithTech, and perhaps even Doom3 and CryTek engines would have been far better for this game than something they did themselves.
LucasArts figured it out when they used the Quake 3 engine for KOTOR and Jedi Outcast. They should have passed that clue on to Obsidian and Atari.

Yes, it costs money, but most of the work is done for you and that ends up saving lots of time and money in the long run. I dont even know what the hell NWN2 uses, what is it? Some bastard child of the Aurora engine or something?

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
I REALLY wish companies would just use older, preestablished engines when making new games.
The Source, Unreal 2, LithTech, and perhaps even Doom3 and CryTek engines would have been far better for this game than something they did themselves.
LucasArts figured it out when they used the Quake 3 engine for KOTOR and Jedi Outcast. They should have passed that clue on to Obsidian and Atari.

Yes, it costs money, but most of the work is done for you and that ends up saving lots of time and money in the long run. I dont even know what the hell NWN2 uses, what is it? Some bastard child of the Aurora engine or something?

those engines aren't designed for 3rd person, aren't design to use D&D rules, etc.... you make it sound like an easy problem to solve, but its not

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: shortylickens

I dont even know what the hell NWN2 uses, what is it? Some bastard child of the Aurora engine or something?

Its called the Electron Engine, basically Aurora with lots of mods and no OGL support. And its VERY hard to use a shooter engine with a D&D 3rd person game.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: shortylickens

I dont even know what the hell NWN2 uses, what is it? Some bastard child of the Aurora engine or something?

Its called the Electron Engine, basically Aurora with lots of mods and no OGL support. And its VERY hard to use a shooter engine with a D&D 3rd person game.

what did KotOR use? ... it seemed pretty smooth - except for a few areas of tall grass and was about as capable as NWN2's - except for the effects which ARE pretty good.

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Mem
Is there going to be an expansion pack for NWN2 ?

Obsidian is busy the the Alien RPG, sales are not spectacular for NWN2, Atari will either contract someone besides Obsidian to make one or just not create one at all. Your best bet will be the community made modules.

Yeah, I doubt there will be an expansion. I think they may have finally squeezed the last drop of life out of the D&D franchise, which frankly is not a great CRPG system to begin with. GURPS, which was used in Fallout, is far superior, more flexible and amenable to computer adaptation.

If there were to be an expansion, it would be bad to say the least.

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: shortylickens

I dont even know what the hell NWN2 uses, what is it? Some bastard child of the Aurora engine or something?

Its called the Electron Engine, basically Aurora with lots of mods and no OGL support. And its VERY hard to use a shooter engine with a D&D 3rd person game.

what did KotOR use? ... it seemed pretty smooth - except for a few areas of tall grass and was about as capable as NWN2's - except for the effects which ARE pretty good.

Ummmmmmm.......
I just said it.

Quake 3.


And yes, it was what many people call the final/ultimate use of that engine.
They did everything possible and more with it and finally had to call it quits. Compared to a bunch of others that had already been out at the time, it just wasnt holding up. They couldnt get the polygon count any higher and couldnt do anything more with the lighting. I keep hoping they make another Star Wars RPG and are smart enough to use an older, established engine like CryTek or Unreal 2 or maybe Source. Then stretch it to its limits.
Less focus on the background and more focus on the game itself.
Thats why KOTOR was such a good game. They didnt waste years and millions of dollars trying to fix and modify a new or crappy graphics engine.

As for all the comments about a 1st-person "engine" not being useable in a D&D game: WOW!. The ignorance is strong here. But at least we didnt have a bunch of people trying to back it up with "facts".

The graphics engine doesnt give a damn where the camera is, people. The decision to place the camera is gaming decision. The only real graphics difference between a 1st and 3rd-person game is how detailed to make the textures, and that can be changed on the drop of a hat. You can go into NWN2 settings and make them pretty darn good or really bad. If you have a strong enough video card you have probably already noticed that the cutscenes feature some pretty nice facial geometry and textures. But for those of us with mid-range equipment, it makes sense to lower the settings when you zoom out on the huge battles. Things can definitely get choppy with too much detail on the screen at one time, especially the big Reaver fights at the end.

For those of you who still doubt the usefulness of such engines, please keep in mind one of the best mods ever made for UT2004 was a TOTAL ANNIHILATION mod!
Again, with UT2004 you could change texture quality and most other detail settings right in the game and dont even have to restart.

Though I can understand folks not wanting to hang out in the Video section of the forums and learn this stuff. Those guys have more fights than the P&N crowd.

(EDITED to remove annoying roll-eyes emoticon.)

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: apoppin
what did KotOR use?

Odyssey Engine

The Odyssey Engine is a computer game engine developed by BioWare and has exclusively been used to create three dimensional computer role-playing games. The engine is BioWare's third license-able engine, after the Infinity Engine and the Aurora Engine.

 

[Bateluer]

Shortylickens, KOTOR also used a variant of the Aurora engine, as did KOTOR2.

There a lot of technical challenges when trying to use a FPS engine in a D&D or other type of role playing game. Often, its easier for developers to develop their own engine, or license a role playing engine (Infinity, Aurora).

The only good 'RPG' game that I can recall right now that shipped on a FPS engine was Bloodlines. Though it was bug ridden, it was obvious from the start that it was based on an FPS engine. Its possible to design a semi decent RPG game on a FPS engine, but usually if its a solo RPG. Party based RPGs, where you have 4 to 6 people in your party, with lush vibrant, active cities and centers, are difficult to do on a FPS engine.

And yes, I do spend time in the Video card forum, though admittedly its when I'm looking to upgrade my video card. Fortunately, I never had to turn down settings on NWN2 after the 1.03 patch. My system was plenty powerful enough to play through even the most intense battles at my high settings.

Edit - Incidentally, Mass Effect will also be using a modernized, updated version of the Aurora engine, dubbed Odyssey

 

[Ultralight]

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo


Yeah, I doubt there will be an expansion. I think they may have finally squeezed the last drop of life out of the D&D franchise, which frankly is not a great CRPG system to begin with. GURPS, which was used in Fallout, is far superior, more flexible and amenable to computer adaptation.

If there were to be an expansion, it would be bad to say the least.

I think the D&D franchise is extremely viable because it has been barely scratched even with some of the great games already published; the problem is the people who are making CRPG games from the franchise. If they would drop the current mode, i.e., NWN model, and make another type of Baldurs Gate 2 game I believe the masses would rise up with great enthusiasm -- just as long as they fix the AI path finding.

Don't get me wrong, I liked NWN1, but it was the mod community that really made the game viable. A great number of the free downloads from said community are much better than the official OC and expansions.


The material and possibilitiesfor the D&D franchise are almost endless, but the final product is only as good as the people designing and implementing the material -- and we know how sloppy the coding was for NWN2.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
Shortylickens, KOTOR also used a variant of the Aurora engine, as did KOTOR2.

There a lot of technical challenges when trying to use a FPS engine in a D&D or other type of role playing game. Often, its easier for developers to develop their own engine, or license a role playing engine (Infinity, Aurora).

The only good 'RPG' game that I can recall right now that shipped on a FPS engine was Bloodlines. Though it was bug ridden, it was obvious from the start that it was based on an FPS engine. Its possible to design a semi decent RPG game on a FPS engine, but usually if its a solo RPG. Party based RPGs, where you have 4 to 6 people in your party, with lush vibrant, active cities and centers, are difficult to do on a FPS engine.

And yes, I do spend time in the Video card forum, though admittedly its when I'm looking to upgrade my video card. Fortunately, I never had to turn down settings on NWN2 after the 1.03 patch. My system was plenty powerful enough to play through even the most intense battles at my high settings.

Edit - Incidentally, Mass Effect will also be using a modernized, updated version of the Aurora engine, dubbed Odyssey

Wrong. Oblivion/DM M&M/Fable/G3 all use "FPS engines"

. . . and speak of the Devil
:evil:

i am playing VtMB for the first time, right now ... the UNofficial patch 3.3 evidently DOES address the *issues* since i had *one crash* in well over 20 hours

and it is *old Source Engine* ... weird ... there is NO sssSS Stutter as there are in the very latest edition of Source

Vampire: Bloodlines is nothing short of *amazing* ... i would go so far as to call it the "Vampire Deus EX" to which game it 'pays homage'


however it is NOT D&D 'top down' RPG like NWN2 ... it is FPS/TPS like Oblivion/Gothic/Fable/DM M&M ...etc.

i think we are seeing the 'end' of D&D type RPG games ... unless something *brilliant* like KotOR comes out

and i *live* in the Video forum

 

[Crafty35a]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Wrong. Oblivion/DM M&M/Fable/G3 all use "FPS engines"

Oblivion uses Gamebryo which is most definitely not an FPS engine. I can't think of a single FPS that has used Gamebryo, though there may have been a couple. Games such as Pirates!, Railroads!, and Freedom Force all used Gamebryo. DM M&M - sure, that uses the Source engine. But the game is also basically an FPS with swords so I don't see what you're proving by mentioning that. Gothic 3 is a single player RPG. As bateluer said "Its possible to design a semi decent RPG game on a FPS engine, but usually if its a solo RPG." I think your examples are really reinforcing the points that Bateluer made.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Crafty35a

Originally posted by: apoppin
Wrong. Oblivion/DM M&M/Fable/G3 all use "FPS engines"

Oblivion uses Gamebryo which is most definitely not an FPS engine. I can't think of a single FPS that has used Gamebryo, though there may have been a couple. Games such as Pirates!, Railroads!, and Freedom Force all used Gamebryo. DM M&M - sure, that uses the Source engine. But the game is also basically an FPS with swords so I don't see what you're proving by mentioning that. Gothic 3 is a single player RPG. As bateluer said "Its possible to design a semi decent RPG game on a FPS engine, but usually if its a solo RPG." I think your examples are really reinforcing the points that Bateluer made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamebryo

is used by a wide variety of game developers and is known for its flexibility. Gamebryo has recently enjoyed a spike in popularity due to the success of Bethesda Softworks' The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, which was built with this technology.

Gamebryo supports much more than 3D rendering, but 3D rendering is what it is best known for. Many game engines are normally more strict as to what and how things can be included in a game. Gamebryo is much more flexible, and can be used for wide variety of game types. The renderer makes use of a hierarchical scene-graph structure.

Though it uses a proprietary renderer, Gamebryo does not limit what type of graphics must or can be included in a game. A Gamebryo license comes with full source code so game-specific code can be added wherever a game programmer pleases. Gamebryo comes with 3500 pages of fully indexed and searchable documentation.

Since it contains an extensive graphics renderer, Gamebryo can also be used for serious simulations and has several customers in this arena as well.

no reason it can't be used for FPS

what *i* am saying is that VtMB/G3/Oblivion/DM M&M/Fable are ALL *RPGs* but use FPS engines....
NWN2 is a TOP DOWN D&D rpg ... VERY different from the above games

The OP mentioned VtMB as the "only goodRPG" ... but VtMB is NO DIFFERENT than G3/Oblivion/DM M&M/Fable

Gamebryo info

Industry use

Gamebryo is used throughout the video game industry. Some of the developers who use EGT's Gamebryo include:

* Bethesda Softworks (Morrowind, Oblivion,Fallout 3)
* Firaxis (for Pirates!, Civilization IV and Railroads!)
* Irrational Games (Freedom Force)
* Mad Doc Software (Empire Earth II)
* Mythic Entertainment (Dark Age of Camelot)
* Timegate Studios (Kohan II)
* MindArk (Entropia Universe)

Games that use Gamebryo:

* Axis & Allies - 2004, Windows, Atari, Inc.
* Dark Age of Camelot - 2001, Windows, Abandon Entertainment/Vivendi Universal Games
* Dark Age of Camelot: Catacombs - 2005, Windows, Mythic Entertainment, Inc./Wanadoo Edition
* Dark Age of Camelot: Shrouded Isles - 2002, Windows, Vivendi Universal Games, Inc./Wanadoo Edition
* Dark Age of Camelot: Trials of Atlantis - 2004, Windows, Wanadoo Edition
* The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind - 2002, Windows/Xbox, Bethesda Softworks LLC/Ubisoft Entertainment
* The Elder Scrolls III: Tribunal Expansion - 2002 Windows/Xbox, Bethesda Softworks LLC/Ubi Soft Entertainment Software
* The Elder Scrolls III: Bloodmoon Expansion - 2002 Windows/Xbox, Bethesda Softworks LLC/Ubi Soft Entertainment Software
* The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion - 2006, Windows/Xbox 360, Bethesda Softworks LLC/2K Games
* Empire Earth II - 2005, Windows, Sierra Entertainment, Inc.
* Freedom Force - 2002, Windows, Crave Entertainment, Inc./Electronic Arts Inc.
* Freedom Force vs The 3rd Reich - 2005, Windows, Vivendi Universal Games, Inc.
* Knight's Apprentice, Memorick's Adventures - 2004, Xbox, XS Games LLC
* Kohan II: Kings of War - 2004, Windows, Gathering/Global Star Software Inc./Take 2 Interactive
* Playboy: The Mansion - 2005, PlayStation 2/Windows/Xbox, ARUSH Entertainment
* Project Entropia - 2003, Windows, MindArk PE AB
* Sid Meier's Civilization IV - 2005, Windows/Mac, Firaxis/2K Games
* Sid Meier's Pirates! - 2004, Windows/Xbox, Firaxis/2K Games/Atari, Inc.
* Sid Meier's Railroads! - 2006, Windows, Firaxis/2K Games
* STACKED with Daniel Negreanu - 2006, PS2, PSP, Xbox, PC
* Traitors Gate 2: Cypher - 2003, Windows, The Adventure Company
* Zoo Tycoon 2 - 2004, Windows, Microsoft Game Studios
* Wildlife Park 2 - 2006, Windows, Deep Silver
* Highländer - 2007, Windows, FSK Entertainment

 

[Crafty35a]

Originally posted by: apoppin
no reason it can't be used for FPS

But it is still not an "FPS engine" as you said. "FPS engine" implies that the engine was designed solely to power first-person shooters. There is a huge difference between an FPS engine and an all-purpose engine like Gamebryo, which can be used for almost any type of game.

Originally posted by: apoppin
what *i* am saying is that VtMB/G3/Oblivion/DM M&M/Fable are ALL *RPGs* but use FPS engines....

But I've already shown that to be incorrect, they all either do not use FPS engines, or are Single Player, non party-based RPG's, which we have already acknowledged can be done with an FPS engine.

Originally posted by: apoppin
NWN2 is a TOP DOWN D&D rpg ... VERY different from the above games

That's my point! NWN2 is a top down RPG, which is NOT conducive to an FPS engine. You're arguing both sides of the coin here. To get back to your original argument, name me a single good top down RPG that uses an FPS engine.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Crafty35a

Originally posted by: apoppin
no reason it can't be used for FPS

But it is still not an "FPS engine" as you said. "FPS engine" implies that the engine was designed solely to power first-person shooters. There is a huge difference between an FPS engine and an all-purpose engine like Gamebryo, which can be used for almost any type of game.

Originally posted by: apoppin
what *i* am saying is that VtMB/G3/Oblivion/DM M&M/Fable are ALL *RPGs* but use FPS engines....

But I've already shown that to be incorrect, they all either do not use FPS engines, or are Single Player, non party-based RPG's, which we have already acknowledged can be done with an FPS engine.

Originally posted by: apoppin
NWN2 is a TOP DOWN D&D rpg ... VERY different from the above games

That's my point! NWN2 is a top down RPG, which is NOT conducive to an FPS engine. You're arguing both sides of the coin here. To get back to your original argument, name me a single good top down RPG that uses an FPS engine.

sigh

lets look at what he said ... again

Originally posted by: Bateluer
Shortylickens, KOTOR also used a variant of the Aurora engine, as did KOTOR2.

There a lot of technical challenges when trying to use a FPS engine in a D&D or other type of role playing game. Often, its easier for developers to develop their own engine, or license a role playing engine (Infinity, Aurora).

The only good 'RPG' game that I can recall right now that shipped on a FPS engine was Bloodlines. Though it was bug ridden, it was obvious from the start that it was based on an FPS engine. Its possible to design a semi decent RPG game on a FPS engine, but usually if its a solo RPG. Party based RPGs, where you have 4 to 6 people in your party, with lush vibrant, active cities and centers, are difficult to do on a FPS engine.

i was disagreeing with the part where he said, "The only good 'RPG' game that I can recall right now that shipped on a FPS engine was Bloodlines. Though it was bug ridden, it was obvious from the start that it was based on an FPS engine."

WRONG. The *other* good RPGs that are ALSO based on a FPS [or "all-purpose"] Engine are - to name a few RECENT ones are: VtMB/Oblivion/G3/Fable/DM M&M

and the only *good* [recent] Top down RPG i can think of is KoTOR [period]

that's ALL i was replying to ... you are reading into what i did not say

 

[DaveSimmons]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
By the way, there's a massive stack of fan made modules available now. See here

That list looks pretty sad, actually. Most are "I just did this in an hour" and "use this for testing" examples, not something you can actually play. I didn't see more than 4-5 total including at least 1 NWN-1 port (Tragidor).

I enjoyed NWN + expansions and several of the fan modules, but so far I'm not feeling much need to buy NWN 2

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: apoppin
WRONG. The *other* good RPGs that are ALSO based on a FPS [or "all-purpose"] Engine are - to name a few RECENT ones are: VtMB/Oblivion/G3/Fable/DM M&M

and the only *good* [recent] Top down RPG i can think of is KoTOR [period]

The best RPGs ever created have all been top down perspectives, including those on Hall of Fame lists. KoTOR1 was good, but its short campaign and lack of user content really limits it, not to mention that most of the characters are pointless. All you need to beat the game, utterly destroying all opponents, are the Jedi characters.

Your list of good RPGs based on FPS engines is pretty sad, considering that only VTMB is an RPG. Since you can't actually engage in dialogue in Oblivion, it does not qualify as an RPG, also its lack of good NPCs. Its a thinly veiled FPS. DMofM&M also suffered that same flaw, no real dialogue, NPCs, etc. I didn't play Gothic 3 yet, but if its similar to previous Gothic titles, it also barely qualifies as an RPG. While it has memorable NPCs with distinctive personalities, your dialogue with them was extremely limited. I also didn't play Fable, but a game that you can beat in 6 hours, or 8 if you do all the side quests, relegates in the 'lite' category in my book.

Its sad what qualifies as an RPG these days, 8 hour long hack fests with no story, characters, conversation, plots, etc. And to add insult to injury, the majority of people go right along with it, buying and raving about how cool it is to hack goblins and demons with a sword. *Sigh* I miss Planescape: Torment.

Oh, 1 more thing, Apoppin, lets run down the list of 'good' top down RPGs. Baldur's Gate 1, Baldur's Gate 2, Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Planescape Torment, Neverwinter Nights 1, and those are just titles made by Bioware and the defunct Black Isle Studios.

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Originally posted by: Bateluer
By the way, there's a massive stack of fan made modules available now. See here

That list looks pretty sad, actually. Most are "I just did this in an hour" and "use this for testing" examples, not something you can actually play. I didn't see more than 4-5 total including at least 1 NWN-1 port (Tragidor).

I enjoyed NWN + expansions and several of the fan modules, but so far I'm not feeling much need to buy NWN 2

Its only been a few months, it took NWN1 some time to build a its masses of user mods.