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NON_POLITICAL China Coronavirus THREAD

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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
10,209
4,234
136
One reasons other vaccines take longer for FDA approval is disease prevalence. The lower the incidence of a disease, the longer the trial takes before enough 'events' have accumulated to determine if you have efficacy or not. And also, there is a pandemic - it would not be ethical to continue to monitor people for a 2 year time period to compare the outcomes of active vaccination vs placebo to see the long-term effects.

As for the mRNA vaccines - it might be new to market, but they have been researched for a very long time. Consider also that mRNA is not exactly known for it's biological stability - it's extremely prone to degradation. With pretty much any vaccine, at the end of the day, side effects are going to arise from immunogenicity against the vaccine components and the products that are generated. In the case of the mRNA vaccines - mRNA isn't stable enough to generate any antibodies against; the lipids nanoparticles are largely just generic lipids, which your body probably won't react to in a meaningful way, and the spike protein that the mRNA tells some cells to make. So unless there is some human protein that easily cross-reacts with the antibodies generated against the spike protein, you're not likely to see some latent, long-term side effect.
Aren't the lipids used in several already approved drugs?
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
10,209
4,234
136
I do think Pfizer used too high of a dosage for 12-15 but I think any issues would be found pretty quickly. That might be why 5-11 is taking so long because Pfizer used the same dosage as adults for 12-15 but below that is using a lesser dose.
They didn't start the trial. Until March and had to start over with phase 1. So really they are ahead of where you'd think they'd be at this point.
 

H T C

Senior member
Nov 7, 2018
400
238
86
I don't know bout you, but I think that keeping alive is a noble goal in itself and certainly worthy of getting vaccinated in order to achieve.

Currently the hospitals where I am are so full of covid that patients with other issues can't even have visitors and ICU beds are so occupied with covid patients that anyone needing to be in the ICU for any other reason can't get in, and the vast majority of people taking up the space and hogging all the time of the medical staff are those unvaccinated folks. So getting them vaccinated is the best interests of EVERYONE.

And THIS is why pretty much ALL the countries in the World had lockdowns @ one point or another: TO TRY and prevent EXACTLY THAT on a National scale.

WHATEVER MEASURES are taken TODAY will have their effects become NOTICEABLE around TWO WEEKS from now, so IT WILL get worse before it STARTS to get better: the LONGER it takes for ACTUAL MEASURES to become enforced, the WORSE it will get.
 

gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
643
182
116
I don't know bout you, but I think that keeping alive is a noble goal in itself and certainly worthy of getting vaccinated in order to achieve.

Currently the hospitals where I am are so full of covid that patients with other issues can't even have visitors and ICU beds are so occupied with covid patients that anyone needing to be in the ICU for any other reason can't get in, and the vast majority of people taking up the space and hogging all the time of the medical staff are those unvaccinated folks. So getting them vaccinated is the best interests of EVERYONE.
I'm all for those with significant risk of being hospitalized being vaccinated. Doubtful that the kind of rhetoric we see being applied here will convince them, likely the opposite.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
5,944
480
126
Delta is spreading so rapidly among the unvaccinated that we're going to hit herd immunity probably before the end of the summer. That's my prediction anyway.

Unfortunately, innate immunity due to previous infection is an extremely poor substitute for the vaccine. I'm thinking mainly of the mRNA versions. I haven't heard anything about the JJ/adenovirus version.

So even if I'm right about the timeline, it's not going to matter. Unvaccinated survivors might be safe for a few months but this virus is notorious for making your immune system "forgetful." Just fyi, this is in the same family as some cold viruses and there's a reason that we've never been able to make a vaccine for the common cold.

So what will almost certainly happen is that you will have this persistent pool of tens of millions of covid survivors who will be subject to repeated re-infections. And with each one comes yet another chance for even more deadly and virulent mutations such that it will only be a matter of time before new vaccines will be necessary and we get to ride this merry-go-round again and again.
 

Torn Mind

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2012
6,333
813
126
Delta is spreading so rapidly among the unvaccinated that we're going to hit herd immunity probably before the end of the summer. That's my prediction anyway.

Unfortunately, innate immunity due to previous infection is an extremely poor substitute for the vaccine. I'm thinking mainly of the mRNA versions. I haven't heard anything about the JJ/adenovirus version.

So even if I'm right about the timeline, it's not going to matter. Unvaccinated survivors might be safe for a few months but this virus is notorious for making your immune system "forgetful." Just fyi, this is in the same family as some cold viruses and there's a reason that we've never been able to make a vaccine for the common cold.

So what will almost certainly happen is that you will have this persistent pool of tens of millions of covid survivors who will be subject to repeated re-infections. And with each one comes yet another chance for even more deadly and virulent mutations such that it will only be a matter of time before new vaccines will be necessary and we get to ride this merry-go-round again and again.
Spread does not stop with vaccination, especially with Delta. It's just that the vaccinate lose less if they get it.

Actually, one wonders what the fuck the CDC was smoking and what their actual intentions are(more economically driven, perhaps) when they removed the mask mandates when they did. May 8, the percent of cases was 1% for Delta. May 22, 3%. What gets logged on a date represents events that occurred one-two weeks prior. The percentage spiked to approximately 8% on Jun 5, and that happens to represent the events after May 22, which includes the lifting of the mask mandate of the vaccinated, and the implicit implication that they got a full "all clear" to run hog wild due to the protection of vaccination.

The phrase pandemic of the unvaccinated leads to numerous mis-inferences. It is a pandemic in terms of consequences; they are more likely to die and get hospitalized, but not of being liable for the cause.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,778
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Spread does not stop with vaccination, especially with Delta. It's just that the vaccinate lose less if they get it.

Actually, one wonders what the fuck the CDC was smoking and what their actual intentions are(more economically driven, perhaps) when they removed the mask mandates when they did. May 8, the percent of cases was 1% for Delta. May 22, 3%. What gets logged on a date represents events that occurred one-two weeks prior. The percentage spiked to approximately 8% on Jun 5, and that happens to represent the events after May 22, which includes the lifting of the mask mandate of the vaccinated, and the implicit implication that they got a full "all clear" to run hog wild due to the protection of vaccination.

The phrase pandemic of the unvaccinated leads to numerous mis-inferences. It is a pandemic in terms of consequences; they are more likely to die and get hospitalized, but not of being liable for the cause.
Herd immunity is obtained through everyone naturally coming into contact with the virus and easily defeating it. Not with vaccines and NOT coming into contact with it.

Why do I have to explain these basic things to grown adults?

As I posted previously, the concept of a vaccine being better for your immune system then the actual virus itself is a massive fallacy.
 

Torn Mind

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2012
6,333
813
126
Herd immunity is obtained through everyone naturally coming into contact with the virus and easily defeating it. Not with vaccines and NOT coming into contact with it.

Why do I have to explain these basic things to grown adults?

As I posted previously, the concept of a vaccine being better for your immune system then the actual virus itself is a massive fallacy.
I don't even know what the hell you are trying to say.
The virus is good enough in its potential to cause damage that avoiding it becomes a pragmatic necessity. Death and hospitalizations are the things that harm the state and enterprise. But morbidity doesn't directly harm the state and enterprise but potential of what COVID can inflict that way to a person is much more than the flu or a cold.

The vaccine is supposed to give a practice battle for the body before the real thing enters it.

Herd immunity doesn't look at what way immunity is obtained, just that it is obtained.

It is not self-evident that natural immunity is necessarily better than vaccine immunity.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
46,014
3,122
126
I don't know bout you, but I think that keeping alive is a noble goal in itself and certainly worthy of getting vaccinated in order to achieve.

Currently the hospitals where I am are so full of covid that patients with other issues can't even have visitors and ICU beds are so occupied with covid patients that anyone needing to be in the ICU for any other reason can't get in, and the vast majority of people taking up the space and hogging all the time of the medical staff are those unvaccinated folks. So getting them vaccinated is the best interests of EVERYONE.
:(

 

JujuFish

Lifer
Feb 3, 2005
10,458
435
136
Herd immunity is obtained through everyone naturally coming into contact with the virus and easily defeating it. Not with vaccines and NOT coming into contact with it.
I'm not sure how you can be so wrong about something that is so easy to look up, but herd immunity absolutely includes vaccination. I mean, this is seriously not hard at all to look up. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/herd immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

Why do I have to explain these basic things to grown adults?
Apparently you're the one that needs it explained to you.

As I posted previously, the concept of a vaccine being better for your immune system then the actual virus itself is a massive fallacy.
All evidence indicates to the contrary regarding COVID-19. Your whole post is full of misinformation. Are you intentionally spreading it?
 
Dec 10, 2005
21,288
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Aren't the lipids used in several already approved drugs?
I can't recall at the moment about specific phospholipids used, since there are so many, but there are indeed several drugs that have phospholipid formulations, such as the antifungal amphotericen B.
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
19,647
2,974
126
Herd immunity is obtained through everyone naturally coming into contact with the virus and easily defeating it. Not with vaccines and NOT coming into contact with it.

Ripped from an article by an MD on the American Lung Association site:

by David G. Hill, M.D. | July 27, 2020
Topics:
  • COVID-19
As COVID-19 continues to spread through the United States, I have often heard people saying that "it just needs to run its course.” This, coupled with reports, disputed by some, of people attending so-called “COVID parties,” contribute to harmful misperceptions on the concept of herd immunity.

Herd immunity is achieved when large percentages of a population become immune to a disease and therefore indirectly protect those who do not have immunity. If, for example, four out of five of the people who are exposed to someone with an infectious disease are immune to it, the disease is much less likely to spread. However, the percentage of people who must be immune in order to achieve herd immunity varies based on multiple factors including the mode of transmission, and how easily and quickly a given disease spreads.

In most cases, herd immunity is not achieved without an effective vaccine. For COVID-19, the percentage of the population that needs to be infected to achieve herd immunity is estimated to be between 70% and 90%, and this is assuming lasting immunity is possible.


Uhhhhmmm....mmmmkay. ;)
 
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Nov 8, 2012
20,778
4,751
136
Ripped from an article by an MD on the American Lung Association site:

by David G. Hill, M.D. | July 27, 2020
Topics:
  • COVID-19
As COVID-19 continues to spread through the United States, I have often heard people saying that "it just needs to run its course.” This, coupled with reports, disputed by some, of people attending so-called “COVID parties,” contribute to harmful misperceptions on the concept of herd immunity.

Herd immunity is achieved when large percentages of a population become immune to a disease and therefore indirectly protect those who do not have immunity. If, for example, four out of five of the people who are exposed to someone with an infectious disease are immune to it, the disease is much less likely to spread. However, the percentage of people who must be immune in order to achieve herd immunity varies based on multiple factors including the mode of transmission, and how easily and quickly a given disease spreads.

In most cases, herd immunity is not achieved without an effective vaccine. For COVID-19, the percentage of the population that needs to be infected to achieve herd immunity is estimated to be between 70% and 90%, and this is assuming lasting immunity is possible.


Uhhhhmmm....mmmmkay. ;)
You missed the point there broceritops. My emphasis was having the vaccine AND coming into contact with it. NOT having the vaccine and not coming into contact with it. Nor with not getting the vaccine.

So your underlined/bolded portion need not apply to my messaging.

I don't know why I have to keep repeating this: The point of a vaccine is NOT to magically make a virus disappear overnight like a unicorn. But for some reason - thats the way everyone is believing it should be because they are ill-informed on how science works.
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
19,647
2,974
126
You missed the point there broceritops. My emphasis was having the vaccine AND coming into contact with it. NOT having the vaccine and not coming into contact with it.

So your underlined/bolded portion need not apply to my messaging.

I don't know why I have to keep repeating this: The point of a vaccine is NOT to magically make a virus disappear overnight like a unicorn. But for some reason - thats the way everyone is believing it should be because they are ill-informed on how science works.

I don't believe that aspect of your comment matters at all here sorry. A vaccine serves the same purpose as exposure to a virus (without illness) or close enough to it that it doesn't matter far as a persons immune system is concerned.

I could however be mistaken and am more than willing to be proven so... please quote reputable medical/scientific sources if you want to be taken seriously when doing so.

Essentially what you are saying is the opposite of everything I've read about what "herd-immunity" is and how to get there. Vaccines or exposure either way will work its not either/or... all that matters is the % of folks immune not so much how they got that way for society.
 
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Torn Mind

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2012
6,333
813
126
You missed the point there broceritops. My emphasis was having the vaccine AND coming into contact with it. NOT having the vaccine and not coming into contact with it. Nor with not getting the vaccine.

So your underlined/bolded portion need not apply to my messaging.

I don't know why I have to keep repeating this: The point of a vaccine is NOT to magically make a virus disappear overnight like a unicorn. But for some reason - thats the way everyone is believing it should be because they are ill-informed on how science works.
WTF dude. A vaccine is a failsafe that is there case the infection does happens. Not that someone intentionally wants to get infected.

Anyway, if your point was to make sure people did come into contact with the virus after vaccination, then didn't the "information" and feels from the CDC instruction to allow maskless conduct among the vaccinated do exactly that, just by exploiting motivated reasoning/wishful thinking and the misconception that the vaccine is some force field?
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
19,647
2,974
126
WTF dude. A vaccine is a failsafe that is there case the infection does happens. Not that someone intentionally wants to get infected.

Anyway, if your point was to make sure people did come into contact with the virus after vaccination, then didn't the "information" and feels from the CDC instruction to allow maskless conduct among the vaccinated do exactly that, just by exploiting motivated reasoning/wishful thinking and the misconception that the vaccine is some force field?

I wouldn't put a whole lot of thought into this "debate"... doesn't rate it. ;)


Non-political post, point is social dynamics: A politician publicly praising low vaccination rates vs. a celebrity getting harassed for making the choice to stay away from unvaccinated people for personal safety:

Marjorie Taylor Greene congratulates crowd for low vaccination rate

Jennifer Aniston defends staying away from the unvaccinated

Proof that physical appearance ACTUALLY IS an indication of what's INSIDE a person?

*(Greene looks like a female dwarf or maybe a troll lol)

 
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Torn Mind

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2012
6,333
813
126
I wouldn't put a whole lot of thought into this "debate"... doesn't rate it. ;)
I know I've checkmated him at least once. Silence is golden.

Probably because I don't fall into the trap of name-calling and nonsensical retorts that he's aiming to draw out of people.

I can safely say I've never called him stupid.
 
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Torn Mind

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2012
6,333
813
126
Job market looks pretty good:

The Costco in a town I know used to never have job openings but they were advertising on Indeed, craigslist, etc a couple weeks ago. Used to be it was only the Virginia Costcos advertising. That Costco was never hiring.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
10,209
4,234
136
Herd immunity is obtained through everyone naturally coming into contact with the virus and easily defeating it. Not with vaccines and NOT coming into contact with it.

Why do I have to explain these basic things to grown adults?

As I posted previously, the concept of a vaccine being better for your immune system then the actual virus itself is a massive fallacy.
Herd immunity comes from vaccination all the time.
 

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