NIU shooting

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: irishScott
If the frequency of this shit gets higher, I may be tempted to violate my school's no weapons policy on certain days...

How do you decided which days?

Hitler's Birthday, anniversaries of other shootings, terrorist attacks, major holidays, etc. Stuff seems to happen on days like that. Not always, but more likely.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Utah is your best bet then. Although there are about twenty public schools that still allow, as well as a number of private schools.

I find it hilarious someone would limit their education to schools that allow concealed carry. Your choice of institution will impact the rest of your life; a better school will give you different networking opportunities and different employment opportunities.

Besides, too many gun nuts assume that if concealed carry was allowed, that everyone on campus would run out and get a weapon. Most people still wouldn't. And chances are this incident still would have unfolded exactly as it did even on a campus that allowed handguns. It's not like owning a handgun makes you Robocop, and you could have unloaded a clip into the gunman from across the classroom before he got his shots off. Most would have ran out the classroom regardless of whether they had a weapon or not; self-preservation, because the gunman entering the room with his finger on the trigger had a tactical advantage.

It sure impacted those 5 kids' lives today. If they had been at a University in Utah, New York, or California, they could have defended themselves.

I will agree that it's statistically unlikely to be the victim of a shooting (at a school or elsewhere,) but having been shot at several times myself, it's not about statistics, it's about anecdotes. That one time that it happens will make up for all the time you spent preparing for it to happen. By some of your logic, you're a fool to own a fire extinguisher, or purchase insurance.

Personally I would advocate that those in the 40-something states that don't allow carry on campus do it anyway. If you're doing things right and keeping your weapon concealed, no one will ever know. I carried all 4 years at UT Austin before Texas even had CHLs, and 2 years at UT Dallas doing my masters. Never spotted or suspected.

That's complete bullshit and you know it.

Oh, and I think you have your facts wrong as it is almost impossible to legally carry a weapon in New York or California unless you're law enforcement.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: Nebor
I will agree that it's statistically unlikely to be the victim of a shooting (at a school or elsewhere,) but having been shot at several times myself, it's not about statistics, it's about anecdotes. That one time that it happens will make up for all the time you spent preparing for it to happen. By some of your logic, you're a fool to own a fire extinguisher, or purchase insurance.

Pretty much sums up everything I wanted to say.

As a ccw holder, I will probably never have to use my gun. However, the one time I do need it, I'll be damned if I won't have it with me. I understand it's not for everyone (I've never said otherwise), but I refuse to put myself in any position where I am unable to defend myself, assuming I can avoid it.

It's probably the same reason I keep four fire extinguishers in my apartment, and one in the trunk of my car.

 

[adairusmc]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: Nebor
I will agree that it's statistically unlikely to be the victim of a shooting (at a school or elsewhere,) but having been shot at several times myself, it's not about statistics, it's about anecdotes. That one time that it happens will make up for all the time you spent preparing for it to happen. By some of your logic, you're a fool to own a fire extinguisher, or purchase insurance.

As a ccw holder, I will probably never have to use my gun. However, the one time I do need it, I'll be damned if I won't have it with me. I understand it's not for everyone (I've never said otherwise), but I refuse to put myself in any position where I am unable to defend myself, assuming I can avoid it.

:thumbsup:

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel

Originally posted by: daniel1113
Considering he is likely to spend 8 hours (or more) on campus every day, I don't see how such sentiments could be considered over the top. I wouldn't work somewhere where I couldn't carry for 8+ hours a day.

Honest question: do you work/live in the middle of gang-turf? I'm all for the right to carry weapons but I've seen people here post, "I wouldn't work/live in a State that prohibited CCW."

Seriously, why is this such a major deciding factor? Do the people that make such comments live in crime epicenters where someone in the neighborhood gets shot every 12 hours? Where do you guys live, downtown Baghdad?

Living in a fairly nice area I've had to draw before. The kids at VT were statistically safe, and probably felt very safe. Just because it's rare doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and when it does the ONLY thing that matters is being able to exert agency to stay safe/alive.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: tenshodo13

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Finalnight
*Goes to withdraw 2008 NIU law application....

Seriously, I was already worried about attending any IL law schools because they ban carry and are highly restrictive on guns, I would have been a sitting duck with both my handguns in my apartment if I had attended a year earlier.

Condolences to the wounded/injured.

Why? Statistically speaking the odds are in your favor that nothing like this will happen in the near future at that school.

True...lightening striking twice and all that.

Then again, the same can be said for any safety measure: smoke detector, fire extinguisher, first aid kit, etc. So long as there's any chance (which there will always be) we'll be nervous as long as we're kept unprepared. Rational or not it can have detrimental effects on our education.

I would be more nervous with the knowledge that the College Student next to me has a gun than I would be over the threat of Campus Shooter.

Then you're largely ignorant. Not saying it to be rude, just to offer a wakeup call.

If you live in a state that offers concealed carry (which most do) then on average 1% of the population is carrying a gun at any given time. If your're in a theater with 300 people, 3 of them have guns. If you're in a mall with 1000 people, 10 of them are armed. This is true almost anywhere you go in your life since very few places are off limits to concealed carry. In other words you're around people with guns all the time, you just don't know it. That's why it's called 'concealed carry'...you'd never know.

Studies have shown repeatedly that people with concealed license are 5 times less likely to commit a crime when compared to the general population. That means if you're in class with 30 people who don't carry concealed you're in 5 times more danger than if you were in a class with 30 people who do carry (obviously that's not true, but it's a proper illustration). In fact, studies in 3 states (Washington, Texas, Florida) show that law enforcement officers are more likely to commit a crime than are concealed permit holders. That means statistically you're safer with a bunch of us than you are in a room of cops.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel
Honest question: do you work/live in the middle of gang-turf? I'm all for the right to carry weapons but I've seen people here post, "I wouldn't work/live in a State that prohibited CCW."

Seriously, why is this such a major deciding factor? Do the people that make such comments live in crime epicenters where someone in the neighborhood gets shot every 12 hours? Where do you guys live, downtown Baghdad?

While I wouldn't say I live in a high crime area, it has nothing to do with probabilities and odds. Although, my apartment in Baltimore was probably in one of the highest crime areas in the country, and of course, Baltimore was the only place I wasn't allowed to carry.

Ultimately, it's a deciding factor because it comes down to one of the most basic human rights: the right to defend one's self, property, and family. There are too many states that respect this right for me to settle in one that doesn't.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Utah is your best bet then. Although there are about twenty public schools that still allow, as well as a number of private schools.

I find it hilarious someone would limit their education to schools that allow concealed carry. Your choice of institution will impact the rest of your life; a better school will give you different networking opportunities and different employment opportunities.

And what good will those "networking opportunities" mean if you are killed on campus because you couldn't defend yourself? Sure, it's not likely to happen, but I don't see how you could call it laughable.

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Besides, too many gun nuts assume that if concealed carry was allowed, that everyone on campus would run out and get a weapon.

Not quite... I assume that I will have a gun and a chance to defend myself. I don't expect to become superman, and I don't know any fellow ccw holders that expect to be, either.

Statistically speaking that isn't very likely. There are many things you are much more likely to die from that carrying a gun will do zero to prevent. You could be carrying legally and still die at the hands of some nut with a gun and a will to kill.

Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility. Everyone likes to think they're as good as Clint Eastwood with a gun but there is a huge difference between poking holes in a paper target at a shooting range and trying to drop someone who is shooting at you. Hell, cops have unloaded entire magazines and not hit a suspect while under pressure. What makes some college kid with a CCW any better under pressure?

I don't know how we sort this all out but I don't think arming the student body is the solution.

Just demonstrate to me how it's reasonable to infringe on my rights in school when they're not other places. Show me the magical formula that gives schools a right to be 'gun free' (often in opposition to state laws and constitution) when almost nothing else can.

No one said it was the solution, we merely want our rights as a safety measure while actual solutions are sought.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Utah is your best bet then. Although there are about twenty public schools that still allow, as well as a number of private schools.

I find it hilarious someone would limit their education to schools that allow concealed carry. Your choice of institution will impact the rest of your life; a better school will give you different networking opportunities and different employment opportunities.

Besides, too many gun nuts assume that if concealed carry was allowed, that everyone on campus would run out and get a weapon. Most people still wouldn't. And chances are this incident still would have unfolded exactly as it did even on a campus that allowed handguns. It's not like owning a handgun makes you Robocop, and you could have unloaded a clip into the gunman from across the classroom before he got his shots off. Most would have ran out the classroom regardless of whether they had a weapon or not; self-preservation, because the gunman entering the room with his finger on the trigger had a tactical advantage.

It sure impacted those 5 kids' lives today. If they had been at a University in Utah, New York, or California, they could have defended themselves.

I will agree that it's statistically unlikely to be the victim of a shooting (at a school or elsewhere,) but having been shot at several times myself, it's not about statistics, it's about anecdotes. That one time that it happens will make up for all the time you spent preparing for it to happen. By some of your logic, you're a fool to own a fire extinguisher, or purchase insurance.

Personally I would advocate that those in the 40-something states that don't allow carry on campus do it anyway. If you're doing things right and keeping your weapon concealed, no one will ever know. I carried all 4 years at UT Austin before Texas even had CHLs, and 2 years at UT Dallas doing my masters. Never spotted or suspected.

Let's not forget that you don't have to be shot, or even shot at, to be a victim. Everyone who heard the shots at VT was traumatized. Everyone who knew one of the kids was traumatized. Hell, I spent my 35th birthday watching the names and faces of the dead scroll across my tv. I knew none of them, wasn't anywhere near VT, and I'm still an emotional victim of that incident.

 

[theprodigalrebel]

Baltimore was the only place I wasn't allowed to carry.

Fair enough, I can see where you are coming from. I don't live in the States but I've heard enough nasty things about that place. :laugh: I wouldn't want to live there without a gun either. :beer:

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Just demonstrate to me how it's reasonable to infringe on my rights in school when they're not other places. Show me the magical formula that gives schools a right to be 'gun free' (often in opposition to state laws and constitution) when almost nothing else can.

No one said it was the solution, we merely want our rights as a safety measure while actual solutions are sought.

Private property rights.

They have every right to not allow guns, assuming they are a private institution.

And I have every right not to attend.

 

[GoingUp]

Whats with all of the random shooting. Christ. The media is half of the problem. They give it so damned much attention that people know theyll get on the news if they pull a stunt like this.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel

Baltimore was the only place I wasn't allowed to carry.

Fair enough, I can see where you are coming from. I don't live in the States but I've heard enough nasty things about that place. :laugh: I wouldn't want to live there without a gun either. :beer:

Heh... Well, I'll be honest... It wasn't quite as bad as I thought it would be. Of course, I was smart enough not to wander around beyond the "safe" parts of the city, especially at night. And, my time there was enough for me to learn that I didn't want to live there ever again

 

[Regs]

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
Whats with all of the random shooting. Christ. The media is half of the problem. They give it so damned much attention that people know theyll get on the news if they pull a stunt like this.

Yeap. Like Suicide terrorists.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Just demonstrate to me how it's reasonable to infringe on my rights in school when they're not other places. Show me the magical formula that gives schools a right to be 'gun free' (often in opposition to state laws and constitution) when almost nothing else can.

No one said it was the solution, we merely want our rights as a safety measure while actual solutions are sought.

Private property rights.

They have every right to not allow guns, assuming they are a private institution.

And I have every right not to attend.

Most of the schools that prohibit are public institutions by definition, and many of the others receive public funding of some sort. You don't get it both ways. Either you're private and 100% on your own or your public and have to accept the rules of the state & nation. I fully support a totally private school being able to ban all firearms or be white only or do any other stupid thing they want. If you get even $1 from public money (including tax breaks, or any other government involvement) then you are under the total authority of the people of the united states and whatever we say, goes. In this case that means that we're allowed to carry.

 

[ranmaniac]

One armed person could have stopped this maniac, how about allowing professors to carry concealed, or start employing classroom marshals for large lecture halls.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Utah is your best bet then. Although there are about twenty public schools that still allow, as well as a number of private schools.

I find it hilarious someone would limit their education to schools that allow concealed carry. Your choice of institution will impact the rest of your life; a better school will give you different networking opportunities and different employment opportunities.

And what good will those "networking opportunities" mean if you are killed on campus because you couldn't defend yourself? Sure, it's not likely to happen, but I don't see how you could call it laughable.

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Besides, too many gun nuts assume that if concealed carry was allowed, that everyone on campus would run out and get a weapon.

Not quite... I assume that I will have a gun and a chance to defend myself. I don't expect to become superman, and I don't know any fellow ccw holders that expect to be, either.

Just an FYI that was misquoted somehow, because I didnt say that.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Utah is your best bet then. Although there are about twenty public schools that still allow, as well as a number of private schools.

I find it hilarious someone would limit their education to schools that allow concealed carry. Your choice of institution will impact the rest of your life; a better school will give you different networking opportunities and different employment opportunities.

Besides, too many gun nuts assume that if concealed carry was allowed, that everyone on campus would run out and get a weapon. Most people still wouldn't. And chances are this incident still would have unfolded exactly as it did even on a campus that allowed handguns. It's not like owning a handgun makes you Robocop, and you could have unloaded a clip into the gunman from across the classroom before he got his shots off. Most would have ran out the classroom regardless of whether they had a weapon or not; self-preservation, because the gunman entering the room with his finger on the trigger had a tactical advantage.

It sure impacted those 5 kids' lives today. If they had been at a University in Utah, New York, or California, they could have defended themselves.

I will agree that it's statistically unlikely to be the victim of a shooting (at a school or elsewhere,) but having been shot at several times myself, it's not about statistics, it's about anecdotes. That one time that it happens will make up for all the time you spent preparing for it to happen. By some of your logic, you're a fool to own a fire extinguisher, or purchase insurance.

Personally I would advocate that those in the 40-something states that don't allow carry on campus do it anyway. If you're doing things right and keeping your weapon concealed, no one will ever know. I carried all 4 years at UT Austin before Texas even had CHLs, and 2 years at UT Dallas doing my masters. Never spotted or suspected.

That's complete bullshit and you know it.

Oh, and I think you have your facts wrong as it is almost impossible to legally carry a weapon in New York or California unless you're law enforcement.

Because carry permits have been around in New York and California for such a long time, the original laws had very few restrictions written into them. The same is true for several other "may issue" northeastern states. If you're lucky enough to get a permit there, you can carry pretty much everywhere.

 

[Rudee]

I'm sad to say these kinds of things don't even phase me anymore. So many terrible events have happened over the last years that I've become used to seeing this stuff on CNN.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Just heard from the reporter who interviewed me about SCCC...it sounds like the article may run in tomorrow's USA Today. Normally I'd be glad of the press, but I hate that it's going to come across like reaction to the shooting. In reality the interviews were given on the 7th and 8th of Feb.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Utah is your best bet then. Although there are about twenty public schools that still allow, as well as a number of private schools.

I find it hilarious someone would limit their education to schools that allow concealed carry. Your choice of institution will impact the rest of your life; a better school will give you different networking opportunities and different employment opportunities.

Besides, too many gun nuts assume that if concealed carry was allowed, that everyone on campus would run out and get a weapon. Most people still wouldn't. And chances are this incident still would have unfolded exactly as it did even on a campus that allowed handguns. It's not like owning a handgun makes you Robocop, and you could have unloaded a clip into the gunman from across the classroom before he got his shots off. Most would have ran out the classroom regardless of whether they had a weapon or not; self-preservation, because the gunman entering the room with his finger on the trigger had a tactical advantage.

It sure impacted those 5 kids' lives today. If they had been at a University in Utah, New York, or California, they could have defended themselves.

I will agree that it's statistically unlikely to be the victim of a shooting (at a school or elsewhere,) but having been shot at several times myself, it's not about statistics, it's about anecdotes. That one time that it happens will make up for all the time you spent preparing for it to happen. By some of your logic, you're a fool to own a fire extinguisher, or purchase insurance.

Personally I would advocate that those in the 40-something states that don't allow carry on campus do it anyway. If you're doing things right and keeping your weapon concealed, no one will ever know. I carried all 4 years at UT Austin before Texas even had CHLs, and 2 years at UT Dallas doing my masters. Never spotted or suspected.

That's complete bullshit and you know it.

Oh, and I think you have your facts wrong as it is almost impossible to legally carry a weapon in New York or California unless you're law enforcement.

Because carry permits have been around in New York and California for such a long time, the original laws had very few restrictions written into them. The same is true for several other "may issue" northeastern states. If you're lucky enough to get a permit there, you can carry pretty much everywhere.

I grew up in NY and I live in CA now. You cannot even buy a handgun without your local constable's permission in NY. In CA it is nearly impossible to get a CCW. Unless you can demonstrate a legitimate need (such as threat to your life, etc) you will likely be denied.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Utah is your best bet then. Although there are about twenty public schools that still allow, as well as a number of private schools.

I find it hilarious someone would limit their education to schools that allow concealed carry. Your choice of institution will impact the rest of your life; a better school will give you different networking opportunities and different employment opportunities.

And what good will those "networking opportunities" mean if you are killed on campus because you couldn't defend yourself? Sure, it's not likely to happen, but I don't see how you could call it laughable.

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Besides, too many gun nuts assume that if concealed carry was allowed, that everyone on campus would run out and get a weapon.

Not quite... I assume that I will have a gun and a chance to defend myself. I don't expect to become superman, and I don't know any fellow ccw holders that expect to be, either.

Statistically speaking that isn't very likely. There are many things you are much more likely to die from that carrying a gun will do zero to prevent. You could be carrying legally and still die at the hands of some nut with a gun and a will to kill.

Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility. Everyone likes to think they're as good as Clint Eastwood with a gun but there is a huge difference between poking holes in a paper target at a shooting range and trying to drop someone who is shooting at you. Hell, cops have unloaded entire magazines and not hit a suspect while under pressure. What makes some college kid with a CCW any better under pressure?

I don't know how we sort this all out but I don't think arming the student body is the solution.

Just demonstrate to me how it's reasonable to infringe on my rights in school when they're not other places. Show me the magical formula that gives schools a right to be 'gun free' (often in opposition to state laws and constitution) when almost nothing else can.

No one said it was the solution, we merely want our rights as a safety measure while actual solutions are sought.

Oh, but they can and are infringed elsewhere. You cannot carry a weapon into a court of law, you cannot carry a weapon onto an airplane, you cannot carry a weapon onto a school ground. The magical solution is the will of the people.

Trust me, if I felt the need to carry I would...regardless of the law. And I've actually been in those situations. I lived in Los Angeles during the riots and drove through areas that were being looted with a loaded Colt .45 in my lap.

I've seen first hand what happens when society breaks down. But CCW would have done nothing to prevent that and I am not willing to risk my life to prevent those crimes.

Someone else's property just isn't worth my life. Hell, even in that chaos I never really felt that my life was in immediate danger. I'm sure that if I had tried to defend someone's property it would have been. I'm not that stupid though.

In my day to day life I really don't feel the need to be armed. If that costs me my life someday then so be it.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Utah is your best bet then. Although there are about twenty public schools that still allow, as well as a number of private schools.

I find it hilarious someone would limit their education to schools that allow concealed carry. Your choice of institution will impact the rest of your life; a better school will give you different networking opportunities and different employment opportunities.

And what good will those "networking opportunities" mean if you are killed on campus because you couldn't defend yourself? Sure, it's not likely to happen, but I don't see how you could call it laughable.

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Besides, too many gun nuts assume that if concealed carry was allowed, that everyone on campus would run out and get a weapon.

Not quite... I assume that I will have a gun and a chance to defend myself. I don't expect to become superman, and I don't know any fellow ccw holders that expect to be, either.

Statistically speaking that isn't very likely. There are many things you are much more likely to die from that carrying a gun will do zero to prevent. You could be carrying legally and still die at the hands of some nut with a gun and a will to kill.

Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility. Everyone likes to think they're as good as Clint Eastwood with a gun but there is a huge difference between poking holes in a paper target at a shooting range and trying to drop someone who is shooting at you. Hell, cops have unloaded entire magazines and not hit a suspect while under pressure. What makes some college kid with a CCW any better under pressure?

I don't know how we sort this all out but I don't think arming the student body is the solution.

Just demonstrate to me how it's reasonable to infringe on my rights in school when they're not other places. Show me the magical formula that gives schools a right to be 'gun free' (often in opposition to state laws and constitution) when almost nothing else can.

No one said it was the solution, we merely want our rights as a safety measure while actual solutions are sought.

Oh, but they can and are infringed elsewhere. You cannot carry a weapon into a court of law, you cannot carry a weapon onto an airplane, you cannot carry a weapon onto a school ground. The magical solution is the will of the people.

Trust me, if I felt the need to carry I would...regardless of the law. And I've actually been in those situations. I lived in Los Angeles during the riots and drove through areas that were being looted with a loaded Colt .45 in my lap.

I've seen first hand what happens when society breaks down. But CCW would have done nothing to prevent that and I am not willing to risk my life to prevent those crimes.

Someone else's property just isn't worth my life. Hell, even in that chaos I never really felt that my life was in immediate danger. I'm sure that if I had tried to defend someone's property it would have been. I'm not that stupid though.

In my day to day life I really don't feel the need to be armed. If that costs me my life someday then so be it.

You've actually illustrated my point. In Washington the constitution allows me to have firearms. The RCW sets the laws, and specifically allows me to carry concealed. The RCW also specifies where I can't carry (like courthouses, mental health facilities, and so on). There is NO ALLOWANCE in the RCW for schools to infringe on my rights. And yet, schools are allowed to. As public bodies they should not have the power to overrule the RCW, and yet they do.

Furthermore you never show why a school is a special entity entitled to special rules.

YOU can choose when to risk your life. I give you that. Now give the same consideration to me and allow me the right to decide when I can and cannot take action to protect my own life. Otherwise demonstrate to me that there is a compelling need to overrule that right.

 

[Skillet49]

Just checking in we just got back from the hospital and She's doing ok, luckily she was the least injured out of all of the students in the hall.
We are driving down to her house tonight to get away from campus.

Thankfully the university responded quickly or else it could have been much worse.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
You've actually illustrated my point. In Washington the constitution allows me to have firearms. The RCW sets the laws, and specifically allows me to carry concealed. The RCW also specifies where I can't carry (like courthouses, mental health facilities, and so on). There is NO ALLOWANCE in the RCW for schools to infringe on my rights. And yet, schools are allowed to. As public bodies they should not have the power to overrule the RCW, and yet they do.

Furthermore you never show why a school is a special entity entitled to special rules.

YOU can choose when to risk your life. I give you that. Now give the same consideration to me and allow me the right to decide when I can and cannot take action to protect my own life. Otherwise demonstrate to me that there is a compelling need to overrule that right.

How old are you?