NIU shooting

[rh71]

Originally posted by: JS80
You're sort of dumb.

Then explain to me how I'm wrong or misunderstanding something.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JS80
You're sort of dumb.

Then explain to me how I'm wrong or misunderstanding something.

You take one stupid scenario and extrapolate it against the entire population. You are only thinking at the micro level...very shortsighted. Plus you aren't even using real world statistics, only what you are thinking about in your head.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: moshquerade
Honestly, these meds we put people on seem to mess with their brains. Someone needs to sit down and study HARD as to whether medicines that alter brain chemicals are doing more harm than good.

:thumbsup: Agreed.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JS80
You're sort of dumb.

Then explain to me how I'm wrong or misunderstanding something.

You take one stupid scenario and extrapolate it against the entire population. You are only thinking at the micro level...very shortsighted. Plus you aren't even using real world statistics, only what you are thinking about in your head.

Actually, I'd say he was thinking on a larger level. He basically said he didn't think it was a good idea for many college students to have easy access to guns while on campus.

I happen to agree with him. I think it would do more harm than good.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: moshquerade
Guy's name has been released.

DEKALB, Illinois (CNN) -- A law enforcement source familiar with the investigation into Thursday's shooting rampage at Northern Illinois University has identified the alleged gunman as Steven Kazmierczak.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/...ty.shooting/index.html

and

Police: Gunman has stopped taking meds
Police say the gunman in the Northern Illinois University shooting rampage had stopped taking his medication recently and had become erratic before he killed five people and committed suicide.

http://www.cnn.com/


Honestly, these meds we put people on seem to mess with their brains. Someone needs to sit down and study HARD as to whether medicines that alter brain chemicals are doing more harm than good.

i agree. seems everytime one of thse happens its because someone stoped takeing meds.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JS80
You're sort of dumb.

Then explain to me how I'm wrong or misunderstanding something.

You take one stupid scenario and extrapolate it against the entire population. You are only thinking at the micro level...very shortsighted. Plus you aren't even using real world statistics, only what you are thinking about in your head.

Sorry I should've realized all the real-world examples of colleges ALREADY with 10%, 20%, 50%+ of the kids carrying guns. How slow of me. Now where is this exactly?

I'm actually sorry you can't see what could happen. I think they call it denial for one's own cause. Your next post should probably start with... "But if it weren't a college campus..."

 

[mrrman]

schools are going to have to install metal detectors and post armed guards/police soon...this is getting out of hand

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JS80
You're sort of dumb.

Then explain to me how I'm wrong or misunderstanding something.

You take one stupid scenario and extrapolate it against the entire population. You are only thinking at the micro level...very shortsighted. Plus you aren't even using real world statistics, only what you are thinking about in your head.

Actually, I'd say he was thinking on a larger level. He basically said he didn't think it was a good idea for many college students to have easy access to guns while on campus.

I happen to agree with him. I think it would do more harm than good.

As usual, I'd love to hear a good argument explaining how exactly a college campus is any different than the land right outside the campus perimeter where all of these 21 year and older (usually), licensed ccw permit holders are legally allowed to carry.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JS80
You're sort of dumb.

Then explain to me how I'm wrong or misunderstanding something.

You take one stupid scenario and extrapolate it against the entire population. You are only thinking at the micro level...very shortsighted. Plus you aren't even using real world statistics, only what you are thinking about in your head.

Sorry I should've realized all the real-world examples of colleges ALREADY with 10%, 20%, 50%+ of the kids carrying guns. How slow of me. Now where is this exactly?

I'm actually sorry you can't see what could happen. I think they call it denial for one's own cause. Your next post should probably start with... "But if it weren't a college campus..."

Please look to Utah state universities. They've been allowed to carry concealed handguns there for a while now. THe quad isn't running red with blood. Students are shooting teachers over their grades.

How can you not understand that the same people who carry a gun everywhere else in their state are going to act exactly the same when they carry a gun in class? They didn't go crazy at the supermarket, they didn't go crazy at the dog grooming place, they're not going to go crazy at school.

I lived in a dorm (and then a frat house) throughout college at UT Austin (the home of the school shooting,) and carried a gun every single day. This was before Texas even had concealed handgun licenses. I suppose if I had gotten caught, I might have been thrown out of school and been charged with a 3rd degree felony. But I never felt helpless, or unsafe.

I also got my masters at UT Dallas, and carried while attending there (after Texas passed the CHL law.)

Now I have reserve credentials with a local PD, so I don't have to worry about carry laws anymore.

 

[0roo0roo]

new pic
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23171567

tranny?

 

[glutenberg]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JS80
You're sort of dumb.

Then explain to me how I'm wrong or misunderstanding something.

You take one stupid scenario and extrapolate it against the entire population. You are only thinking at the micro level...very shortsighted. Plus you aren't even using real world statistics, only what you are thinking about in your head.

Sorry I should've realized all the real-world examples of colleges ALREADY with 10%, 20%, 50%+ of the kids carrying guns. How slow of me. Now where is this exactly?

I'm actually sorry you can't see what could happen. I think they call it denial for one's own cause. Your next post should probably start with... "But if it weren't a college campus..."

Please look to Utah state universities. They've been allowed to carry concealed handguns there for a while now. THe quad isn't running red with blood. Students are shooting teachers over their grades.

How can you not understand that the same people who carry a gun everywhere else in their state are going to act exactly the same when they carry a gun in class? They didn't go crazy at the supermarket, they didn't go crazy at the dog grooming place, they're not going to go crazy at school.

I lived in a dorm (and then a frat house) throughout college at UT Austin (the home of the school shooting,) and carried a gun every single day. This was before Texas even had concealed handgun licenses. I suppose if I had gotten caught, I might have been thrown out of school and been charged with a 3rd degree felony. But I never felt helpless, or unsafe.

I also got my masters at UT Dallas, and carried while attending there (after Texas passed the CHL law.)

Now I have reserve credentials with a local PD, so I don't have to worry about carry laws anymore.

Utah is probably not a good representative of what things are like in other states.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: tenshodo13

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Finalnight
*Goes to withdraw 2008 NIU law application....

Seriously, I was already worried about attending any IL law schools because they ban carry and are highly restrictive on guns, I would have been a sitting duck with both my handguns in my apartment if I had attended a year earlier.

Condolences to the wounded/injured.

Why? Statistically speaking the odds are in your favor that nothing like this will happen in the near future at that school.

True...lightening striking twice and all that.

Then again, the same can be said for any safety measure: smoke detector, fire extinguisher, first aid kit, etc. So long as there's any chance (which there will always be) we'll be nervous as long as we're kept unprepared. Rational or not it can have detrimental effects on our education.

I would be more nervous with the knowledge that the College Student next to me has a gun than I would be over the threat of Campus Shooter.

Then you're largely ignorant. Not saying it to be rude, just to offer a wakeup call.

If you live in a state that offers concealed carry (which most do) then on average 1% of the population is carrying a gun at any given time. If your're in a theater with 300 people, 3 of them have guns. If you're in a mall with 1000 people, 10 of them are armed. This is true almost anywhere you go in your life since very few places are off limits to concealed carry. In other words you're around people with guns all the time, you just don't know it. That's why it's called 'concealed carry'...you'd never know.

Studies have shown repeatedly that people with concealed license are 5 times less likely to commit a crime when compared to the general population. That means if you're in class with 30 people who don't carry concealed you're in 5 times more danger than if you were in a class with 30 people who do carry (obviously that's not true, but it's a proper illustration). In fact, studies in 3 states (Washington, Texas, Florida) show that law enforcement officers are more likely to commit a crime than are concealed permit holders. That means statistically you're safer with a bunch of us than you are in a room of cops.

Where do these students put their guns when they go back to their dorm rooms and just hang out? Or when they're brushing their teeth getting ready to sleep? I don't know if it's still ignorance that: more people who start ccw = more guns around = more chances of it being used/taken. I'm sorry but I'm not going to trust college-age kids with guns around... yes, multiple.

What's your stance on that?

I'm for people being able to defend themselves in theory (who isn't?) but with mass ccw, I see more harm than good... the good being that you as an individual would be able to protect yourself in that 0.0067% chance that you will be held up with no escape route. And even then you could cause more deaths than are necessary.

First, you're assuming all students live on campus. Fallacy. Those that do are free to use gun safes on campus, just like we use off campus. Furthermore campus police/security often offer gun lockers in a secure area for storage.

Again, what is magical about school property? If it doesn't happen off campus why is it going to happen on campus?

Until someone shows me evidence that CCW holders have caused incidents, I'm the only one with statistical support to his argument. The rest of you are shadow fearing.

 

[daveymark]

whoa. the dealer who sold the shooter the guns also sold the VA Tech shooter his guns as well:

Text

 

[ric1287]

awesome stuff, someone just sent an "anonymous threat" via email that there will be violence at UIC this spring. Good thing we aren't allowed to protect ourselves. If the goddamn media didn't have an orgasm every time this shit happened, it would stop. These fucking nutjobs want attention and they are guaranteed to get it from the hard hitting news outlets.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: daveymark
whoa. the dealer who sold the shooter the guns also sold the VA Tech shooter his guns as well:

Text

Sigh.

The same site sells gun accessories to thousands of people every year.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Until someone shows me evidence that CCW holders have caused incidents, I'm the only one with statistical support to his argument. The rest of you are shadow fearing.

I'd like to know what statistical support you have for something that hasn't happened on the scale you people are proposing repeatedly. Maybe some underlining and bolding will get my particular question answered. This is saying that more and more people carrying guns for the slim chance you'll be held up with no escape route is a more worthwhile cause/reason than keeping dangerous weapons off these particular properties. It does more good than harm in the long run? Is that what you honestly believe to be the case?

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: daveymark
whoa. the dealer who sold the shooter the guns also sold the VA Tech shooter his guns as well:

Text

so what? both of wich were legal.

 

[ric1287]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Until someone shows me evidence that CCW holders have caused incidents, I'm the only one with statistical support to his argument. The rest of you are shadow fearing.

I'd like to know what statistical support you have for something that hasn't happened on the scale you people are proposing repeatedly. Maybe some underlining and bolding will get my particular question answered. This is saying that more and more people carrying guns for the slim chance you'll be held up with no escape route is a more worthwhile cause/reason than keeping dangerous weapons off these particular properties. It does more good than harm in the long run? Is that what you honestly believe to be the case?

You seem convinced that if CC were allowed on campus then every student would start carrying. This is not the case, the same as if CC were allowed in IL in general; just because it is legal doesn't mean every damn person is going to run out and buy a gun.

 

[daveymark]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: daveymark
whoa. the dealer who sold the shooter the guns also sold the VA Tech shooter his guns as well:

Text

so what? both of wich were legal.

so it's an interesting coincidence. nothing more. Are you trying to say there's something more to the story?

 

[daveymark]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: daveymark
whoa. the dealer who sold the shooter the guns also sold the VA Tech shooter his guns as well:

Text

Sigh.

The same site sells gun accessories to thousands of people every year.

what's your point? it's an interesting coincidence, nothing more. don't try to read more into it.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: daveymark

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: daveymark
whoa. the dealer who sold the shooter the guns also sold the VA Tech shooter his guns as well:

Text

Sigh.

The same site sells gun accessories to thousands of people every year.

what's your point? it's an interesting coincidence, nothing more. don't try to read more into it.

You posted the link starting with "woah" and mentioned nothing about it being an interesting coincidence. Don't blame me for reading into your comment.

 

[daveymark]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: daveymark

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: daveymark
whoa. the dealer who sold the shooter the guns also sold the VA Tech shooter his guns as well:

Text

Sigh.

The same site sells gun accessories to thousands of people every year.

what's your point? it's an interesting coincidence, nothing more. don't try to read more into it.

You posted the link starting with "woah" and mentioned nothing about it being an interesting coincidence. Don't blame me for reading into your comment.

hence the reason for the clarification. it's just a coincidence, nothing more.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Until someone shows me evidence that CCW holders have caused incidents, I'm the only one with statistical support to his argument. The rest of you are shadow fearing.

I'd like to know what statistical support you have for something that hasn't happened on the scale you people are proposing repeatedly. Maybe some underlining and bolding will get my particular question answered. This is saying that more and more people carrying guns for the slim chance you'll be held up with no escape route is a more worthwhile cause/reason than keeping dangerous weapons off these particular properties. It does more good than harm in the long run? Is that what you honestly believe to be the case?

Ok, it's a two step process for me to reach the conclusion. Feel free to google the studies I talk about. If you find the link on a pro-gun site rather than immediately discard it try this: go to the references and find the original work, search for that and see if it's valid.

First we negate the opposition: concealed carry is allowed all over, millions of people do it, and there are no issues. This has been proven by studies all over the country including Texas department of justice, the state of florida, etc and all have found that not only are concealed permit holders up to five times less likely to commit a crime, they are actually safer than law enforcement (statistically at least). Moreover we can look to Utah and the other individual schools which have allowed concealed carry and we see that there hasn't been any issues with it there. In other words - none of the negative things that so many of you claim have happened, despite the long trial period.

Second we consider the positives: it would make those of us who are nervous feel better, thus improving our learning environment. It has the possibility (however slight it may seem to you) to allow us to protect ourselves should such an incident occur again. It has been proven that there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of defensive gun uses each year...meaning that we gain the added benefit of being able to utilize our weapons in defense against crimes other than just random shootings. This is important because studies show that campus crime is rising rapidly and remains high overall (at least in many areas). We remove an artificial barrier to our guaranteed rights. Perhaps not in all states, but in my own we have constitutional and state law protections of our carry rights. Schools, a lesser political body, are usurping the authority of the state and the people. This is harmful to our government and society.

In this analysis the good (which has vast statistical support) outweighs the bad (since there is none with statistical support). Therefore there's no reason not to allow it.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
In this analysis the good (which has vast statistical support) outweighs the bad (since there is none with statistical support). Therefore there's no reason not to allow it.

The only problem with such analysis is that it infers that there would be reason not to allow it if in fact the good did not outweigh the bad. In reality, it doesn't matter (or at least it shouldn't matter).

This is why I try to avoid discussing statistics and numbers when it comes to gun ownership and ccw.

 

[OFFascist]

Originally posted by: rh71
So you sleep with it under your pillow? Your roommates or friends or whoever strangers go into your room have 0% chance at it 100% of the time? Multiply this by however many have them - because you know, you can't control them too. Again, it can hurt more than it helps, do you disagree?

I carry a handgun. I dont sleep with it under my pillow, but I do keep it in my room accessible to me, when I go to sleep I lock the door to my room. The rest of my guns are locked up in my safe in the closet.

When I wake up in the morning and get dressed to go out I strap it on and its with me all day. If I'm just at home chilling I may or maynot be wearing it, depending on how I'm feeling. I trust my roomate so I dont worry about it while I'm there, but I'm not trusting in general so when we have people over I will usually wear it.

Its not so much that I'm worried about someone stealing it to do something bad like kill someone with it, but that I'm just worried about theft in general and my gun is one of my more valuable possessions, and it would be easier for someone to steal that than say my computer.