NIU shooting

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: Skillet49
Just checking in we just got back from the hospital and She's doing ok, luckily she was the least injured out of all of the students in the hall.
We are driving down to her house tonight to get away from campus.

Thankfully the university responded quickly or else it could have been much worse.

Glad to hear that's she is ok.

But I must ask... what did the university (or anyone) do to lessen the damage?

Interpreted his comment to mean the quick response of paramedics.

 

[bignateyk]

I'm all for CCW, but i'm kind of glad they don't allow it at most universties. I'd wager that more bystanders would get killed by errant shots from the CCW folks than from the actual gunman.

It would be chaos from the standpoint of the police. How would they know who the real gunman was?

I have my CCW, but I rarely carry. I usually only carry when I am going to an unknown city or part of town. I highly doubt that 99% of people with CCW are competant enough in shooting a pistol that they could take down an armed assailant with a tactical advantage, especially without injuring other people in the process.

Shooting someone who is robbing you or attacking you close range is one thing, but taking down a shooter from a distance with other people scattered around is completely different.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: Skillet49
Just checking in we just got back from the hospital and She's doing ok, luckily she was the least injured out of all of the students in the hall.
We are driving down to her house tonight to get away from campus.

Thankfully the university responded quickly or else it could have been much worse.

Glad to hear that's she is ok.

But I must ask... what did the university (or anyone) do to lessen the damage?

Interpreted his comment to mean the quick response of paramedics.

Ah, makes sense when read that way. Thank you.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: bignateyk
I'm all for CCW, but i'm kind of glad they don't allow it at most universties. I'd wager that more bystanders would get killed by errant shots from the CCW folks than from the actual gunman.

It would be chaos from the standpoint of the police. How would they know who the real gunman was?

I have my CCW, but I rarely carry. I usually only carry when I am going to an unknown city or part of town. I highly doubt that 99% of people with CCW are competant enough in shooting a pistol that they could take down an armed assailant with a tactical advantage, especially without injuring other people in the process.

Shooting someone who is robbing you or attacking you close range is one thing, but taking down a shooter from a distance with other people scattered around is completely different.

Don't you find it odd that these are the same arguments people made when ccw laws were first passed, and such errant "gun fights" have yet to happen? Universities are not some magical place where suddenly everything changes... and I honestly find it surprising (and disappointing) that a ccw holder would think like that.

 

[ryan256]

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: Unheard
Well it looks like another campuses Gun Free zone worked well.

For keeping the law abiding unarmed.

Here's hoping everyone is alright, except the piece of trash that committed this. To bad no one could of finished him before he started.

That didnt take long. Youre an ass for even bringing this up. :roll:

Why?? Its been brought up by everyone else on this forum. Hell this thread is 1 page of people seeking information & offering condolences. 7 pages of people arguing the right to carry.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: bignateyk
I'm all for CCW, but i'm kind of glad they don't allow it at most universties. I'd wager that more bystanders would get killed by errant shots from the CCW folks than from the actual gunman.

It would be chaos from the standpoint of the police. How would they know who the real gunman was?

I have my CCW, but I rarely carry. I usually only carry when I am going to an unknown city or part of town. I highly doubt that 99% of people with CCW are competant enough in shooting a pistol that they could take down an armed assailant with a tactical advantage, especially without injuring other people in the process.

Shooting someone who is robbing you or attacking you close range is one thing, but taking down a shooter from a distance with other people scattered around is completely different.

Don't you find it odd that these are the same arguments people made when ccw laws were first passed, and such errant "gun fights" have yet to happen? Universities are not some magical place where suddenly everything changes... and I honestly find it surprising (and disappointing) that a ccw holder would think like that.

Plus it's absolutely, completely ridiculous to think that it would be better to allow a heavily armed mass murderer to go about his business uninterrupted rather than taking a shot at him with some risk of collateral damage. Look at the big picture. Every mass shooter type has stopped shooting his intended victims as soon as someone started shooting back. It kinda grabs your attention.

Would it keep me up at night if I accidentally shot an innocent person while attempting to take out a mass murderer? Yes, absolutely. But that would be tempered by the fact that I did stop him, distract him, or at least try to do anything other than run or die.

 

[MartyMcFly3]

My friends who go to NIU are all doing good, just obviously upset/saddened by it. One girl I know knew one of the victims so that's been especially tough on her.

Horrible what happened. Condolences to those lost.

 

[thraashman]

Why am I not surprised we have an argument about gun control going on here. This happened from the VT shooting last year too.

I'm just happy that I found out that a friend of mine who goes to NIU is ok. It scared the shit out of me when I heard about this before she posted a blog letting people know she's fine.

 

[CasioTech]

what was the motive???

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: tenshodo13

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Finalnight
*Goes to withdraw 2008 NIU law application....

Seriously, I was already worried about attending any IL law schools because they ban carry and are highly restrictive on guns, I would have been a sitting duck with both my handguns in my apartment if I had attended a year earlier.

Condolences to the wounded/injured.

Why? Statistically speaking the odds are in your favor that nothing like this will happen in the near future at that school.

True...lightening striking twice and all that.

Then again, the same can be said for any safety measure: smoke detector, fire extinguisher, first aid kit, etc. So long as there's any chance (which there will always be) we'll be nervous as long as we're kept unprepared. Rational or not it can have detrimental effects on our education.

I would be more nervous with the knowledge that the College Student next to me has a gun than I would be over the threat of Campus Shooter.

Then you're largely ignorant. Not saying it to be rude, just to offer a wakeup call.

If you live in a state that offers concealed carry (which most do) then on average 1% of the population is carrying a gun at any given time. If your're in a theater with 300 people, 3 of them have guns. If you're in a mall with 1000 people, 10 of them are armed. This is true almost anywhere you go in your life since very few places are off limits to concealed carry. In other words you're around people with guns all the time, you just don't know it. That's why it's called 'concealed carry'...you'd never know.

Studies have shown repeatedly that people with concealed license are 5 times less likely to commit a crime when compared to the general population. That means if you're in class with 30 people who don't carry concealed you're in 5 times more danger than if you were in a class with 30 people who do carry (obviously that's not true, but it's a proper illustration). In fact, studies in 3 states (Washington, Texas, Florida) show that law enforcement officers are more likely to commit a crime than are concealed permit holders. That means statistically you're safer with a bunch of us than you are in a room of cops.

Where do these students put their guns when they go back to their dorm rooms and just hang out? Or when they're brushing their teeth getting ready to sleep? I don't know if it's still ignorance that: more people who start ccw = more guns around = more chances of it being used/taken. I'm sorry but I'm not going to trust college-age kids with guns around... yes, multiple.

What's your stance on that?

I'm for people being able to defend themselves in theory (who isn't?) but with mass ccw, I see more harm than good... the good being that you as an individual would be able to protect yourself in that 0.0067% chance that you will be held up with no escape route. And even then you could cause more deaths than are necessary.

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus


Oh, but they can and are infringed elsewhere. You cannot carry a weapon into a court of law, you cannot carry a weapon onto an airplane, you cannot carry a weapon onto a school ground. The magical solution is the will of the people.

Trust me, if I felt the need to carry I would...regardless of the law. And I've actually been in those situations. I lived in Los Angeles during the riots and drove through areas that were being looted with a loaded Colt .45 in my lap.

I've seen first hand what happens when society breaks down. But CCW would have done nothing to prevent that and I am not willing to risk my life to prevent those crimes.

Someone else's property just isn't worth my life. Hell, even in that chaos I never really felt that my life was in immediate danger. I'm sure that if I had tried to defend someone's property it would have been. I'm not that stupid though.

In my day to day life I really don't feel the need to be armed. If that costs me my life someday then so be it.

Interesting you mention that. Do you have people searching you going into a college? Do you have people searching for weapons going into an airport? Do you have people searching for weapons going into a courthouse?

Please answer those 3 questions, I believe you will then find the answer.

 

[moshquerade]

Guy's name has been released.

DEKALB, Illinois (CNN) -- A law enforcement source familiar with the investigation into Thursday's shooting rampage at Northern Illinois University has identified the alleged gunman as Steven Kazmierczak.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/...ty.shooting/index.html

and

Police: Gunman has stopped taking meds
Police say the gunman in the Northern Illinois University shooting rampage had stopped taking his medication recently and had become erratic before he killed five people and committed suicide.

http://www.cnn.com/


Honestly, these meds we put people on seem to mess with their brains. Someone needs to sit down and study HARD as to whether medicines that alter brain chemicals are doing more harm than good.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Nebor
Would it keep me up at night if I accidentally shot an innocent person while attempting to take out a mass murderer? Yes, absolutely. But that would be tempered by the fact that I did stop him, distract him, or at least try to do anything other than run or die.

Would the involuntary manslaughter charges filed against you keep you up at night?

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: tenshodo13

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Finalnight
*Goes to withdraw 2008 NIU law application....

Seriously, I was already worried about attending any IL law schools because they ban carry and are highly restrictive on guns, I would have been a sitting duck with both my handguns in my apartment if I had attended a year earlier.

Condolences to the wounded/injured.

Why? Statistically speaking the odds are in your favor that nothing like this will happen in the near future at that school.

True...lightening striking twice and all that.

Then again, the same can be said for any safety measure: smoke detector, fire extinguisher, first aid kit, etc. So long as there's any chance (which there will always be) we'll be nervous as long as we're kept unprepared. Rational or not it can have detrimental effects on our education.

I would be more nervous with the knowledge that the College Student next to me has a gun than I would be over the threat of Campus Shooter.

Then you're largely ignorant. Not saying it to be rude, just to offer a wakeup call.

If you live in a state that offers concealed carry (which most do) then on average 1% of the population is carrying a gun at any given time. If your're in a theater with 300 people, 3 of them have guns. If you're in a mall with 1000 people, 10 of them are armed. This is true almost anywhere you go in your life since very few places are off limits to concealed carry. In other words you're around people with guns all the time, you just don't know it. That's why it's called 'concealed carry'...you'd never know.

Studies have shown repeatedly that people with concealed license are 5 times less likely to commit a crime when compared to the general population. That means if you're in class with 30 people who don't carry concealed you're in 5 times more danger than if you were in a class with 30 people who do carry (obviously that's not true, but it's a proper illustration). In fact, studies in 3 states (Washington, Texas, Florida) show that law enforcement officers are more likely to commit a crime than are concealed permit holders. That means statistically you're safer with a bunch of us than you are in a room of cops.

Where do these students put their guns when they go back to their dorm rooms and just hang out? Or when they're brushing their teeth getting ready to sleep? I don't know if it's still ignorance that: more people who start ccw = more guns around = more chances of it being used/taken. I'm sorry but I'm not going to trust college-age kids with guns around... yes, multiple.

What's your stance on that?

I'm for people being able to defend themselves in theory (who isn't?) but with mass ccw, I see more harm than good... the good being that you as an individual would be able to protect yourself in that 0.0067% chance that you will be held up with no escape route. And even then you could cause more deaths than are necessary.

Uh, you continue to carry your gun in your dorm room or when you hang out. Don't forget the VT killer struck first in the dorms. I know I carried in my dorm at UT back in the day. The most secure weapon is one that you have direct control over.

Basically what you're saying is that you don't trust collega-age kids, period. Why let them drive cars? They're imperilling the lives of hundreds every day.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Nebor
Would it keep me up at night if I accidentally shot an innocent person while attempting to take out a mass murderer? Yes, absolutely. But that would be tempered by the fact that I did stop him, distract him, or at least try to do anything other than run or die.

Would the involuntary manslaughter charges filed against you keep you up at night?

he should not be charged, the original shooter with the intent to start a massacre holds the responsibility for creating the stituation;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Nebor
Would it keep me up at night if I accidentally shot an innocent person while attempting to take out a mass murderer? Yes, absolutely. But that would be tempered by the fact that I did stop him, distract him, or at least try to do anything other than run or die.

Would the involuntary manslaughter charges filed against you keep you up at night?

he should not be charged, the original shooter with the intent to start a massacre holds the responsibility for creating the stituation;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

I wonder how the family of the guy/girl you accidentally shot and killed would feel about that. I'd bet they'd sue you for wrongful death at the very least.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Nebor
Would it keep me up at night if I accidentally shot an innocent person while attempting to take out a mass murderer? Yes, absolutely. But that would be tempered by the fact that I did stop him, distract him, or at least try to do anything other than run or die.

Would the involuntary manslaughter charges filed against you keep you up at night?

he should not be charged, the original shooter with the intent to start a massacre holds the responsibility for creating the stituation;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

I wonder how the family of the guy/girl you accidentally shot and killed would feel about that. I'd bet they'd sue you for wrongful death at the very least.

civil court is different from criminal, you can sue for whatever the hell you want, just stick all your money in a retirement account and it cannot be collected.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Nebor
Would it keep me up at night if I accidentally shot an innocent person while attempting to take out a mass murderer? Yes, absolutely. But that would be tempered by the fact that I did stop him, distract him, or at least try to do anything other than run or die.

Would the involuntary manslaughter charges filed against you keep you up at night?

he should not be charged, the original shooter with the intent to start a massacre holds the responsibility for creating the stituation;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

So his recklessness would be charged to the original Perp? Yeah if he doesn't bare any responsibility for his actions I'd rather he not be armed because it could make a horrorific situation worse.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Nebor
Would it keep me up at night if I accidentally shot an innocent person while attempting to take out a mass murderer? Yes, absolutely. But that would be tempered by the fact that I did stop him, distract him, or at least try to do anything other than run or die.

Would the involuntary manslaughter charges filed against you keep you up at night?

he should not be charged, the original shooter with the intent to start a massacre holds the responsibility for creating the stituation;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

So his recklessness would be charged to the original Perp? Yeah if he doesn't bare any responsibility for his actions I'd rather he not be armed because it could make a horrorific situation worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Nowhere did I say it gave him a free for all to spray bullets, it's up to the investigators to decide whether if the shots were directed at shooter.
Atleast in CA, CCW holders must take a training class, qualify with the weapon they carry, and renew the training periodically.

Quite frankly, it's appalling so many of you are basically advocating nothing be done, until the police show up and figure it out, who might make the same stray bullets mistake as anyone else.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: moshquerade
Honestly, these meds we put people on seem to mess with their brains. Someone needs to sit down and study HARD as to whether medicines that alter brain chemicals are doing more harm than good.

Sssssssshhhhhhhh!

Quiet...big pharma might hear you.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: moshquerade
Honestly, these meds we put people on seem to mess with their brains. Someone needs to sit down and study HARD as to whether medicines that alter brain chemicals are doing more harm than good.

Sssssssshhhhhhhh!

Quiet...big pharma might hear you.

true words. *nods in agreement*

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: tenshodo13

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Finalnight
*Goes to withdraw 2008 NIU law application....

Seriously, I was already worried about attending any IL law schools because they ban carry and are highly restrictive on guns, I would have been a sitting duck with both my handguns in my apartment if I had attended a year earlier.

Condolences to the wounded/injured.

Why? Statistically speaking the odds are in your favor that nothing like this will happen in the near future at that school.

True...lightening striking twice and all that.

Then again, the same can be said for any safety measure: smoke detector, fire extinguisher, first aid kit, etc. So long as there's any chance (which there will always be) we'll be nervous as long as we're kept unprepared. Rational or not it can have detrimental effects on our education.

I would be more nervous with the knowledge that the College Student next to me has a gun than I would be over the threat of Campus Shooter.

Then you're largely ignorant. Not saying it to be rude, just to offer a wakeup call.

If you live in a state that offers concealed carry (which most do) then on average 1% of the population is carrying a gun at any given time. If your're in a theater with 300 people, 3 of them have guns. If you're in a mall with 1000 people, 10 of them are armed. This is true almost anywhere you go in your life since very few places are off limits to concealed carry. In other words you're around people with guns all the time, you just don't know it. That's why it's called 'concealed carry'...you'd never know.

Studies have shown repeatedly that people with concealed license are 5 times less likely to commit a crime when compared to the general population. That means if you're in class with 30 people who don't carry concealed you're in 5 times more danger than if you were in a class with 30 people who do carry (obviously that's not true, but it's a proper illustration). In fact, studies in 3 states (Washington, Texas, Florida) show that law enforcement officers are more likely to commit a crime than are concealed permit holders. That means statistically you're safer with a bunch of us than you are in a room of cops.

Where do these students put their guns when they go back to their dorm rooms and just hang out? Or when they're brushing their teeth getting ready to sleep? I don't know if it's still ignorance that: more people who start ccw = more guns around = more chances of it being used/taken. I'm sorry but I'm not going to trust college-age kids with guns around... yes, multiple.

What's your stance on that?

I'm for people being able to defend themselves in theory (who isn't?) but with mass ccw, I see more harm than good... the good being that you as an individual would be able to protect yourself in that 0.0067% chance that you will be held up with no escape route. And even then you could cause more deaths than are necessary.

Uh, you continue to carry your gun in your dorm room or when you hang out. Don't forget the VT killer struck first in the dorms. I know I carried in my dorm at UT back in the day. The most secure weapon is one that you have direct control over.

Basically what you're saying is that you don't trust collega-age kids, period. Why let them drive cars? They're imperilling the lives of hundreds every day.

So you sleep with it under your pillow? Your roommates or friends or whoever strangers go into your room have 0% chance at it 100% of the time? Multiply this by however many have them - because you know, you can't control them too. Again, it can hurt more than it helps, do you disagree?

Nobody gets behind the wheel of a car and thinks of all the horrific things they can do with it. A gun is a bit of a different toy to have around so many people in one area... especially college kids who drink all the time too. How anyone can not see the exponential danger is beyond me. Admitting it's more harm than good in this situation is all I'm after. I'm not trying to change your belief that guns can protect individuals. So...how bout it? That goes for all the pro-ccw people out there.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Nebor
Would it keep me up at night if I accidentally shot an innocent person while attempting to take out a mass murderer? Yes, absolutely. But that would be tempered by the fact that I did stop him, distract him, or at least try to do anything other than run or die.

Would the involuntary manslaughter charges filed against you keep you up at night?

he should not be charged, the original shooter with the intent to start a massacre holds the responsibility for creating the stituation;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

So his recklessness would be charged to the original Perp? Yeah if he doesn't bare any responsibility for his actions I'd rather he not be armed because it could make a horrorific situation worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Nowhere did I say it gave him a free for all to spray bullets, it's up to the investigators to decide whether if the shots were directed at shooter.
Atleast in CA, CCW holders must take a training class, qualify with the weapon they carry, and renew the training periodically.

Quite frankly, it's appalling so many of you are basically advocating nothing be done, until the police show up and figure it out, who might make the same stray bullets mistake as anyone else.

I'm not advocating nothing, I advocate run like a mother fucker on fire is some wanker is shooting the place up. At least you'd only have to worry about taking lead from the maniac, not the vigilante too.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Nebor
Would it keep me up at night if I accidentally shot an innocent person while attempting to take out a mass murderer? Yes, absolutely. But that would be tempered by the fact that I did stop him, distract him, or at least try to do anything other than run or die.

Would the involuntary manslaughter charges filed against you keep you up at night?

he should not be charged, the original shooter with the intent to start a massacre holds the responsibility for creating the stituation;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

So his recklessness would be charged to the original Perp? Yeah if he doesn't bare any responsibility for his actions I'd rather he not be armed because it could make a horrorific situation worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Nowhere did I say it gave him a free for all to spray bullets, it's up to the investigators to decide whether if the shots were directed at shooter.
Atleast in CA, CCW holders must take a training class, qualify with the weapon they carry, and renew the training periodically.

Quite frankly, it's appalling so many of you are basically advocating nothing be done, until the police show up and figure it out, who might make the same stray bullets mistake as anyone else.

I'm not advocating nothing, I advocate run like a mother fucker on fire is some wanker is shooting the place up. At least you'd only have to worry about taking lead from the maniac, not the vigilante too.

not everyone wants to be helpless and stripped of the basic right to self defense.
If the police decides to create a perimeter, sit around and watch until THEY feel safe moving in, sucks to be you.
And remember, you cannot sue the police for not saving you.
You guys are scared of maybe one or two innocent bystanders being shot, but 30+ people is ALOT of people dead while no one does anything.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: tenshodo13

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Finalnight
*Goes to withdraw 2008 NIU law application....

Seriously, I was already worried about attending any IL law schools because they ban carry and are highly restrictive on guns, I would have been a sitting duck with both my handguns in my apartment if I had attended a year earlier.

Condolences to the wounded/injured.

Why? Statistically speaking the odds are in your favor that nothing like this will happen in the near future at that school.

True...lightening striking twice and all that.

Then again, the same can be said for any safety measure: smoke detector, fire extinguisher, first aid kit, etc. So long as there's any chance (which there will always be) we'll be nervous as long as we're kept unprepared. Rational or not it can have detrimental effects on our education.

I would be more nervous with the knowledge that the College Student next to me has a gun than I would be over the threat of Campus Shooter.

Then you're largely ignorant. Not saying it to be rude, just to offer a wakeup call.

If you live in a state that offers concealed carry (which most do) then on average 1% of the population is carrying a gun at any given time. If your're in a theater with 300 people, 3 of them have guns. If you're in a mall with 1000 people, 10 of them are armed. This is true almost anywhere you go in your life since very few places are off limits to concealed carry. In other words you're around people with guns all the time, you just don't know it. That's why it's called 'concealed carry'...you'd never know.

Studies have shown repeatedly that people with concealed license are 5 times less likely to commit a crime when compared to the general population. That means if you're in class with 30 people who don't carry concealed you're in 5 times more danger than if you were in a class with 30 people who do carry (obviously that's not true, but it's a proper illustration). In fact, studies in 3 states (Washington, Texas, Florida) show that law enforcement officers are more likely to commit a crime than are concealed permit holders. That means statistically you're safer with a bunch of us than you are in a room of cops.

Where do these students put their guns when they go back to their dorm rooms and just hang out? Or when they're brushing their teeth getting ready to sleep? I don't know if it's still ignorance that: more people who start ccw = more guns around = more chances of it being used/taken. I'm sorry but I'm not going to trust college-age kids with guns around... yes, multiple.

What's your stance on that?

I'm for people being able to defend themselves in theory (who isn't?) but with mass ccw, I see more harm than good... the good being that you as an individual would be able to protect yourself in that 0.0067% chance that you will be held up with no escape route. And even then you could cause more deaths than are necessary.

Uh, you continue to carry your gun in your dorm room or when you hang out. Don't forget the VT killer struck first in the dorms. I know I carried in my dorm at UT back in the day. The most secure weapon is one that you have direct control over.

Basically what you're saying is that you don't trust collega-age kids, period. Why let them drive cars? They're imperilling the lives of hundreds every day.

So you sleep with it under your pillow? Your roommates or friends or whoever strangers go into your room have 0% chance at it 100% of the time? Multiply this by however many have them - because you know, you can't control them too. Again, it can hurt more than it helps, do you disagree?

Nobody gets behind the wheel of a car and thinks of all the horrific things they can do with it. A gun is a bit of a different toy to have around so many people in one area... especially college kids who drink all the time too. How anyone can not see the exponential danger is beyond me. Admitting it's more harm than good in this situation is all I'm after. I'm not trying to change your belief that guns can protect individuals. So...how bout it? That goes for all the pro-ccw people out there.

You're sort of dumb.