New Political Forum

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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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I generally tend to agree, but the admins run the place and they have the final say. Many of them have been here for over a decade and have a better understanding of what running the place is like than you or I do, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt on this.

The rules of admission (or non-admission) aren't necessarily carved in stone, either. I am sure that if the initial model is not working, for whatever reason, it will be adjusted.

You may or may not know but I was an admin here and you need limiting control. I had a forum that was by invite only elsewhere like that and it worked well except it didn't have the critical mass for success. It's otherwise here.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
Again, I think it depends on how it's done. I don't have a problem with requiring specific admission to the forum, I just think it should be granted unless there's a very good reason not to.

To make an analogy, I'd prefer the forum was more like a "shall issue" CCW law than a "may issue" CCW law.
 
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gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
454
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Question: Would this be strictly for political debates or can we debate other issues? I wouldn't want to replicate other forums, but just for a quick example I know there's been long discussions about real sugar vs. HFCS vs. different artificial sweeteners. It would be nice to have those kinds of discussions with people more apt to be civil and maybe find some sources of data rather than just spouting off random facts they pulled from the air.
 

Emos

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2000
1,989
0
0
Congrats to CK and EK for moderating the new site, I think it's a wonderful idea! I don't post very often but I did send in my application as I relish the opportunity to view rational debate and discourse. Perhaps a friendlier environment will encourage me to come out do my shell and participate more often. Tough environment where you have to back up your claims I love; threads that get derailed by trolls, not so much.

Moderation is a fine balancing act I admit but I feel that showing no mercy to trolls and derailers will permit the cream to rise to the top. Heck even Scientific American had a recent article IIRC that stated that unmoderated comments in forums and blogs will almost always degenerate into a cesspool of trolls and the inmates taking over the asylum.

There is a blog I frequent that is heavily moderated (he calls the moderating The Mallet of Loving Correction) and it permits rational and intelligent discourse amongst the commenters. I would think that it would result in an echo chamber of like minded people but the opposite is true. Granted it leans left but the philosophy there is feel free to disagree but stay on topic and don't be an asshole. Works for me!
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Question: Would this be strictly for political debates or can we debate other issues? I wouldn't want to replicate other forums, but just for a quick example I know there's been long discussions about real sugar vs. HFCS vs. different artificial sweeteners. It would be nice to have those kinds of discussions with people more apt to be civil and maybe find some sources of data rather than just spouting off random facts they pulled from the air.

We do not expect to limit topics.

We are hoping to prevent emotions overriding intellectual discourse.
Debate the issue, not the poster.

If one feels/senses they are on the "losing" side of an arguement, we expect them to concede the point and walk away, rather than act like a child and throw a tantrum.

The bad that can be seen in existing P&N is not needed. We are not looking for orators, it would be nice though. We are looking for people that want to intellectually challenge others or discuss things at an adult level vs a grade school taunting match.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
We do not expect to limit topics.

We are hoping to prevent emotions overriding intellectual discourse.
Debate the issue, not the poster.

If one feels/senses they are on the "losing" side of an arguement, we expect them to concede the point and walk away, rather than act like a child and throw a tantrum.

The bad that can be seen in existing P&N is not needed. We are not looking for orators, it would be nice though. We are looking for people that want to intellectually challenge others or discuss things at an adult level vs a grade school taunting match.

You always have those F15's... ;)
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Question: Would this be strictly for political debates or can we debate other issues? I wouldn't want to replicate other forums, but just for a quick example I know there's been long discussions about real sugar vs. HFCS vs. different artificial sweeteners. It would be nice to have those kinds of discussions with people more apt to be civil and maybe find some sources of data rather than just spouting off random facts they pulled from the air.

I believe they are talking about a Political & News forum....only strictly enforced.....with shall we say more adult like discussion and behavior...

Replicating the other forum is not an issue.

As far as sweeteners go...that doesn`t reall fall under the heading of politics or news.....
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
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Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,983
6,297
136
Will there be a list of the members denied access to the new forum? It appears that mentioning your access was denied is a bannable offence, so I assume the mods don't want it known who has access, or the criteria used to determine if someone is suitable?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Will there be a list of the members denied access to the new forum? It appears that mentioning your access was denied is a bannable offence, so I assume the mods don't want it known who has access, or the criteria used to determine if someone is suitable?

It is not that we (Mods) are trying to hide the people who were rejected, but that people will stir up a fuss complaining that they were not allowed.
They refuse to look in the mirror to see their behaivor within the forums

Similar to when bannings were done in mass a year or so ago, of people that felt that they deserved special treatment /or were going where they knew they should not because of a system security breach.

There the first round of expulsion was the active participants and the second round was their supporters/cheering section as they came out of the woodwork.

The same thing could happen here; we do not want it.
Those that are rejected have a good reason based on their past and perceived lack of potential. Some examples are within this thread itself.

Most that will not be accepted can not pass the criterea listed for the sub-forum and they know it.
 
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Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,983
6,297
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It is not that we (Mods) are trying to hide the people who were rejected, but that people will stir up a fuss complaining that they were not allowed.
They refuse to look in the mirror to see their behaivor within the forums

Similar to when bannings were done in mass a year or so ago, of people that felt that they deserved special treatment /or were going where they knew they should not because of a system security breach.

There the first round of expulsion was the active participants and the second round was their supporters/cheering section as they came out of the woodwork.

The same thing could happen here; we do not want it.
Those that are rejected have a good reason based on their past and perceived lack of potential. Some examples are within this thread itself.

Most that will not be accepted can not pass the criterea listed for the sub-forum and they know it.

So the answer is there will be no list, and anyone mentioning that they were not allowed access will be banned.
Does this rule apply across other forums? If it's discussed on another site and comes to the mods attention, will that person be banned here?
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
65
91
sounds good, just make it visible to everyone or no one will know it exists and it will fail to attract critical mass from people of other sub-forums who avoid P&N because they don't like the tone, but will be maybe interested in this "sealed" forum.

Also I would make it so that violations of local rules that are not intervention-worthy violations in other forums (e.g. posting on-topic but bringing the thread in dangerous directions) bans you from posting in that forum only, and not in the rest of AT forums.

To make an example: a debate club forbids yelling, if you yell, you get expelled from the club, but you don't get fined like if you insulted someone since yelling on the street outside of rest hours is legal. If you insult someone, you get both expelled from the club AND fined.

You know, this way the local moderation can be much harsher, with its necessary judgement calls, without hurting the AT userbase or punishing users too much, but still reaching the objective of keeping the place clean as a whistle which is the important thing.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,449
0
0
Try to give people the benefit of the doubt. If someone has any potential to contribute I'd love to see them in there. Then if they prove that they aren't following the rules they can be expelled.

You might find that someone has a terrible record here from 4 years ago when they were 14 but now they're an 18 year old adult capable of contributing a lot.

It's going to be key that you have as many people in there as possible since debating artificial sweeteners with yourself might not be fun :p
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
454
126
I believe they are talking about a Political & News forum....only strictly enforced.....with shall we say more adult like discussion and behavior...

Replicating the other forum is not an issue.

As far as sweeteners go...that doesn`t reall fall under the heading of politics or news.....

Right, which is why I'm asking. If it's just going to be political discussions then I probably won't bother as I find very few political topics I want to talk about. The fact that they call it "debate club" makes it sound like anything that is debatable, not JUST politics. Also there's always been grey areas of our forums. For ex: All Things Apple is in the "software" category, but Apple hardware is discussed in there as well because it's ALL Things Apple.

The Debate Club thread is currently a sticky in P&N, but I believe it'll be it's own forum under the "Social" category. Definitely would have a P&N focus but it wouldn't actually be in P&N like this sticky currently is.
 

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 8, 2000
24,825
5,949
146
So the answer is there will be no list, and anyone mentioning that they were not allowed access will be banned.
Does this rule apply across other forums? If it's discussed on another site and comes to the mods attention, will that person be banned here?

There will not be a list of people with access. There will also not be a list of people that were denied access. I fail to see the point of such a list. Nothing good would come of it, and really it's no one else's business to know if someone were rejected.



anyone mentioning that they were not allowed access will be banned"

I don't know where you received this from your above statement.

We never said anything of the sort. This is what Perknose said in his OP:


"Applications will be taken through Moderator Discussions. You may apply but one time, and will receive a yea or nay within at least one week. You must accept our decision without further comment. Continuing to clutter MD and presume upon our volunteer time will be considered sanctionable trolling."



What that means is if someone was denied entry, they must accept our decision. If they choose to belabor that the decision, and continue to argue in MD, most likely they would be informally warned to stop. Continuing on would possibly be a formal warning or infraction. Only further argument would possibly, be a short vacation.


From another post you made:

I assume the mods don't want it known who has access, or the criteria used to determine if someone is suitable?



We're not hiding the criteria for entry. It's pretty clear, again, what the criteria is, from Perknose's OP:


Admission to this new forum will be, perforce, perhaps severely restricted, solely at moderator discretion. What that means is that those posters with a documented record of misbehavior need not apply. In addition, sadly, there are some P&N posters who have majorly skirted the line of decent, or even "sane" behavior. These posters need also not apply.


Now remember that these people, (those with documented misbehavior), that we tell upfront need not apply? Some of them will still apply and they will be rejected.




Does this rule apply across other forums? If it's discussed on another site and comes to the mods attention, will that person be banned here?

I am not sure why we have to even address this. I suppose if someone who was rejected here for entry to the new subforum, wants to rant on another forum, let them as far as I am concerned.

This is really not a big deal, so please, don't make this out to be more than it is. Its just an experiment to see if we can create a a less hostile P&N area for discussion. It's really not necessary to try to dissect this.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,983
6,297
136
There will not be a list of people with access. There will also not be a list of people that were denied access. I fail to see the point of such a list. Nothing good would come of it, and really it's no one else's business to know if someone were rejected.





I don't know where you received this from your above statement.

We never said anything of the sort. This is what Perknose said in his OP:


"Applications will be taken through Moderator Discussions. You may apply but one time, and will receive a yea or nay within at least one week. You must accept our decision without further comment. Continuing to clutter MD and presume upon our volunteer time will be considered sanctionable trolling."



What that means is if someone was denied entry, they must accept our decision. If they choose to belabor that the decision, and continue to argue in MD, most likely they would be informally warned to stop. Continuing on would possibly be a formal warning or infraction. Only further argument would possibly, be a short vacation.


From another post you made:





We're not hiding the criteria for entry. It's pretty clear, again, what the criteria is, from Perknose's OP:


Admission to this new forum will be, perforce, perhaps severely restricted, solely at moderator discretion. What that means is that those posters with a documented record of misbehavior need not apply. In addition, sadly, there are some P&N posters who have majorly skirted the line of decent, or even "sane" behavior. These posters need also not apply.


Now remember that these people, (those with documented misbehavior), that we tell upfront need not apply? Some of them will still apply and they will be rejected.






I am not sure why we have to even address this. I suppose if someone who was rejected here for entry to the new subforum, wants to rant on another forum, let them as far as I am concerned.

This is really not a big deal, so please, don't make this out to be more than it is. Its just an experiment to see if we can create a a less hostile P&N area for discussion. It's really not necessary to try to dissect this.

I misunderstood the part about mentioning not being admitted, my bad. The rest is just trying to figure out how this works, and what to expect. The only way to get that information is to ask.
 

MrColin

Platinum Member
May 21, 2003
2,403
3
81
I think this all sounds really nice if you guys are up for the task (not small) of moderating it. Lately I've been avoiding P&N because of the low quality of the discourse but I will occasionally skim it for interesting news. I wouldn't be upset if a decision was made to close Social completely, this was a tech forum when I joined.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
So the answer is there will be no list, and anyone mentioning that they were not allowed access will be banned.
Does this rule apply across other forums? If it's discussed on another site and comes to the mods attention, will that person be banned here?
wow...why does everything end up with what if`s.......isn`t Eagles response good enough...