New Political Forum

[Oyeve]

So there's gonna be two P&N's? One for sane members, and another for Incorruptable and Moonbeam to duke it out?

Took the words right outta my mind!

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I think he was referring to the current P&N, which we will not be moderating.

I am grateful to the AT admins for trusting me with this role despite being relatively new here. As many of you know, I've been advocating for this subforum for quite a while.. so I guess this is me putting my money where my mouth is.

I think EK and I represent a reasonable balance from a partisan perspective.

I don't think anyone can really predict how this will all turn out, but I think it's a worthwhile experiment. I have my own ideas of what I'd like to see eventually happen, but there's not much point in speculating.

I think you might be half right.

And yes, I was referring to this current forum. If all the serious discussion takes place in the subforum what is this supposed to be exactly? Just a forum to see where folks can out troll one another? Though that would be entertaining.

 

[lotus503]

I welcome the new forum, think the Mods choices are reasonable. I think a forum absent the usual suspects will be what P&N should have been all along.

Whether or not I am allowed to post in it aside

 

[Sonikku]

I am glad to be embarking upon this experiment with the hopes that we might finally be free of the trolls. I think we can all agree I have been nothing but the most fair and balanced poster here on these boards. Though it may merely be a formality, I humbly submit my name for admission.

 

[PricklyPete]

:thumbsup: from me!

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I think you might be half right.

Bit too subtle for me.

If folks have problems with the moderator choices, we might as well hash them out now, I would think.

And yes, I was referring to this current forum. If all the serious discussion takes place in the subforum what is this supposed to be exactly? Just a forum to see where folks can out troll one another? Though that would be entertaining.

I think that in time it will be clear what needs to be done.

 

[EagleKeeper]

To both of you, I offer both congratulations and condolences. I've always thought moderating here is a thankless job, especially in P&N. Kudos to both of you for being willing to wade into the fray. Here's hoping that those participating in Debate Club are sincere in their desire for productive discussion, making your jobs easy (and making it a useful forum for everyone).

Those that will not honor their word will be advised of the transgression.

I (not yet confirmed) am hoping that such will be treated like baseball.
3 strikes and they are out.

Just like when people are banned; the Moderators evaluate the reasons why and determine is it justified.

So if the person's track record (logged offending posts) demonstrate such failure to abide by the rules that they agreed to; they will not be welcome in the new forum.

Which emphasizes, Perknose's comment; that if you are hot tempered and/or getting heated; step away for an hour or so to ensure that you know exactly what you are posting and that it is within the guidelines.

Immature adolescent behavior will not be welcome and/or tolerated.

 

[Jaskalas]

I don't think anyone can really predict how this will all turn out, but I think it's a worthwhile experiment. I have my own ideas of what I'd like to see eventually happen, but there's not much point in speculating.

First we can see good behavior, and then we may emulate it. If it becomes large and popular enough - there a chance for it to replace P&N. Imagine that.

I think you might be half right.

And yes, I was referring to this current forum. If all the serious discussion takes place in the subforum what is this supposed to be exactly? Just a forum to see where folks can out troll one another? Though that would be entertaining.

We may do our best to emulate good behavior on this forum as well. Nothing is really stopping us. I would have very much liked to see a stronger off topic rule to include "speak of the topic, not each other" to reign in P&N a little.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Speaking for myself, I just want a group of people who *mostly* behave and make an effort to stay on topic and be rational. Nobody's perfect and we all lose our tempers from time to time. It's been my experience in other forums that usually a thread starts out fine but over time becomes heated and gets off the rails, without it obviously being any one person's fault. My hope is that one of us will be able to steer such discussions back on course by reminding folks to cool off a bit, and no further action will be necessary.

I think for this to be successful we need to strike a balance between ensuring reasonable behavior and not having everyone feel like they're walking on eggshells.

 

[lotus503]

Speaking for myself, I just want a group of people who *mostly* behave and make an effort to stay on topic and be rational. Nobody's perfect and we all lose our tempers from time to time. It's been my experience in other forums that usually a thread starts out fine but over time becomes heated and gets off the rails, without it obviously being any one person's fault. My hope is that one of us will be able to steer such discussions back on course by reminding folks to cool off a bit, and no further action will be necessary.

I think for this to be successful we need to strike a balance between ensuring reasonable behavior and not having everyone feel like they're walking on eggshells.

Lets be honest though in most of those cases its the typical trollish poster that take it there. a thread can be humming along fine then someone comes in derails it or starts the insults and its all downhill from there.

We also need to moderate just trollish OPS to begin with.

When you start a post that says

"So and so shot up a place, "Insert ideology here" are all crazy.
You are not going to have any meaningful discussion.

 

[Moonbeam]

It will continue to decline into more of a cesspool than it already is with everyone serious and not crazy in the other forum.

This is your opinion of which way the forum will decline and your opinion of what is serious and not crazy based on unexamined assumptions you hold. I disagree with all of them. I believe that P & N can't be anything other than it is and that it can go in no other direction than the one we are actually in. It is a picture of the real level of evolution we are at on average, more or less. When people are permitted to express who they are they reveal their true selves. We are cesspools, we haven't declined into them, and nobody ever wants to be other than a cesspool without first realizing that as his or her ground state.

A drunk, then, doesn't bottom out but simply sloughs of all pretense till he reaches his true condition. It is the reality of that reality he thereby attains that may act as the impetus for his redemption. In the world of hidden reality, down is up.

This is why in psychotherapy The Work, is to know yourself and you can't have self knowledge if you do not know what you feel. We are in a boat, as one way to put it, that has capsized, and the only way up is that you first have to dive. Knowledge of everything bad about you or anybody else isn't bad, it's good.

And speaking of psychotherapy, I recall what one practitioner told me. We can't continue this inner journey in a world of mushroom clouds. In other words, if we are going to save ourselves, we are going also to have to save the world. So in my opinion if somebody is actually serious and not insane, he will have a care for those who aren't. There is a race going on between the death wish and self destruction of self hate and conscious awakening and the survival of the human race is at stake.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Interesting - I like it! Will be applying for membership. It seems to me Charles will be good as a moderator.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Bit too subtle for me.

If folks have problems with the moderator choices, we might as well hash them out now, I would think.

Frankly if you think you and EK represent a reasonable balance from a partisan perspective it either discounts EK's slant or calls your own into question. That's not to say it will color your moderating, but a ideologically balanced duo you aint.

I think that in time it will be clear what needs to be done.

And what might that be? Personally I think it's clear now what needs to be done. Kick people out of P&N that can't at least pretend to be polite and tolerant and stay on the topic at hand and let everyone else either engage or ignore discussion of their own volition. Walling off the garden for political debate is counter productive.

 

[Moonbeam]

Lets be honest though in most of those cases its the typical trollish poster that take it there. a thread can be humming along fine then someone comes in derails it or starts the insults and its all downhill from there.

We also need to moderate just trollish OPS to begin with.

When you start a post that says

"So and so shot up a place, "Insert ideology here" are all crazy.
You are not going to have any meaningful discussion.

This is a serious thread, no? And take a look at this post:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"So there's gonna be two P&N's? One for sane members, and another for Incorruptable and Moonbeam to duke it out?"
..................................

What is so bad about having one forum where he can announce he's a brain dead imbecile and another in which he isn't allowed, one thread for shit throwing apes and another for serious people? That way if I want to indulge the wolf entrusted in my keeping I can post here, but have another place patrolled by sheep dogs that is safe to expose my inner sheep. Not every sheep enjoys carrying a hammer all the time.

 

[ivwshane]

So I guess this means I'm out?

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

And as much heat as Moonbeam gets for being, well, Moonbeam, I've never seen him be overtly hostile like some of the other folks he's being grouped in with.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Frankly if you think you and EK represent a reasonable balance from a partisan perspective it either discounts EK's slant or calls your own into question. That's not to say it will color your moderating, but a ideologically balanced duo you aint.

Moderation and ideology can be held /kept separate.
When I was active previously, while my ideology was known; very few times did it affect the Moderation. What was affected was the desire to cleanup cesspool actors.



And what might that be? Personally I think it's clear now what needs to be done. Kick people out of P&N that can't at least pretend to be polite and tolerant and stay on the topic at hand and let everyone else either engage or ignore discussion of their own volition. Walling off the garden for political debate is counter productive.

The former - cleaning up P&N has been determined at this point to be impractical. Potentially, if this experiment shows that it can be done (Quality is preferred by the members); either P&N will wither away or the new forum merge back with knowledge that the rules will work, are enfocreable and the quality is preferred over quantity. People will actually have seconds thoughts about turning the place back into a cesspool if they want to participate in the long run.

What is being walled off are those that are not interested in constructive dialog; but want to create trouble. Trouble may be subjective; but most members have a track record to demonstrate their behavior and allow for evaluation.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Frankly if you think you and EK represent a reasonable balance from a partisan perspective it either discounts EK's slant or calls your own into question. That's not to say it will color your moderating, but a ideologically balanced duo you aint.

Just come out and say it. What's the problem IYO?

Most people here would consider me left of center. EK is, I believe, right of center. I'm not an all out "leftie", I consider myself more of a "liberaltarian". Is that what you're taking issue with, that there isn't a solid liberal moderating?

And what might that be? Personally I think it's clear now what needs to be done. Kick people out of P&N that can't at least pretend to be polite and tolerant and stay on the topic at hand and let everyone else either engage or ignore discussion of their own volition. Walling off the garden for political debate is counter productive.

Well, this got batted around for months and it was clear that the admins weren't going to do that. This is a good compromise that I'm grateful for. My hope is that, in time, the new forum will be widely used for constructive, meaningful discussions, and eventually the admins will think to themselves that maybe it isn't worth keeping around an extra room just to cater to people who can't control themselves and can't engage in rational dialog.

But, let's wait and see. Could be the new place will bomb and everyone will prefer the old. It's an experiment.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Just come out and say it. What's the problem IYO?

Most people here would consider me left of center. EK is, I believe, right of center. I'm not an all out "leftie", I consider myself more of a "liberaltarian". Is that what you're taking issue with, that there isn't a solid liberal moderating?

I don't have issue with the slant of the moderators if the moderation and invite process is balanced and neither of you have given me reason to believe it wouldn't be. I just think your self-assessment as being a balanced pair is off.

Well, this got batted around for months and it was clear that the admins weren't going to do that. This is a good compromise that I'm grateful for. My hope is that, in time, the new forum will be widely used for constructive, meaningful discussions, and eventually the admins will think to themselves that maybe it isn't worth keeping around an extra room just to cater to people who can't control themselves and can't engage in rational dialog.

But, let's wait and see. Could be the new place will bomb and everyone will prefer the old. It's an experiment.

If the plan is to go around your elbow to still get to your thumb I'm all for it, it just baffles me why we can't be more direct about it.

 

[Perknose]

After bignateyk and Oyeve's trolls of this thread, the next poster who does so will get an immediate one week vacation.

This is everyone's first taste of zero tolerance for trolls.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[Jodell88]

If a member does not have a great number of posts in P&N, can he/she still apply for the new forum? Or would they have to prove themselves in P&N first?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Lets be honest though in most of those cases its the typical trollish poster that take it there. a thread can be humming along fine then someone comes in derails it or starts the insults and its all downhill from there.

We also need to moderate just trollish OPS to begin with.

When you start a post that says

"So and so shot up a place, "Insert ideology here" are all crazy.
You are not going to have any meaningful discussion.

Personally I will not engage/entertain such posts. I will report them as being a troll/off topic/personal attack post and let the mods deal with the poster/post.

 

[lotus503]

Personally I will not engage/entertain such posts. I will report them as being a troll/off topic/personal attack post and let the mods deal with the poster/post.

You have sublime self control, personally I find it hard when I have good dialogue in a thread going and someone comes along and derails it or changes the tone with insults and banter. But your right, OPS like that should just be ignored/reported.

 

[ivwshane]

Question for the mods. Just so we can get an idea and an understanding of what will be moderated can you tell us what threads that are on the first page of the current P&N forum would be locked or doesn't meet the sub forums requirements?


And when does the enrollment process begin?

 

[Bowfinger]

Speaking for myself, I just want a group of people who *mostly* behave and make an effort to stay on topic and be rational. Nobody's perfect and we all lose our tempers from time to time. It's been my experience in other forums that usually a thread starts out fine but over time becomes heated and gets off the rails, without it obviously being any one person's fault. My hope is that one of us will be able to steer such discussions back on course by reminding folks to cool off a bit, and no further action will be necessary.

I think for this to be successful we need to strike a balance between ensuring reasonable behavior and not having everyone feel like they're walking on eggshells.

Good luck, and I mean that sincerely. It seems to me that striking that balance will be the key. In order for the new forum to be successful, it needs to maintain a critical mass of participants. If moderation is too strict, it will drive valuable posters away until the forum dies; too laissez-faire and it will be P&N Redux.

My personal hope is that you and EK can pay special attention to this:

8. Quality discussion requires sensible exchanges of logical arguments. Posters are expected to present their views in a rational manner, and to address counterarguments, rather than ignoring them and repeating claims. Those unable or unwilling to do this are not a good match for this forum. (In the immortal words of Monty Python: "An argument isn't just contradiction. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.")
​

I know I'm a broken record on the subject, but I still believe insults are more of a cosmetic issue than a substance issue. Yes, one can improve the S/N ratio by reducing noise, but a weak signal with less noise is still weak. Increasing the signal level (i.e., more substantive content, more meat) also increases S/N by drowning out the noise. Hopefully people will bring not only improved civility to Debate Club, but also improved arguments.