Middle class - worse off than the numbers show

[Engineer]

So in other words, as long as we've got ours, fuck everybody else? Isn't that the attitude that Democrats hate the wealthy for? I'm no more connected to the rest of the people in the US than I am the rest of the people in the world. My loyalty stops at family and friends. Outside of that, fuck everyone else.

Good for you. I guess those people and their economic status have no effect on your economic situation...in other words, I've got mine, fuck them.

That's your opinion and I've got mine. Again, I don't give a shit about the rest of the world. They can take care of their own problems.

 

[Engineer]

So you get a handful of people making the tools that put thousands out of work.

Technology eliminates jobs. That's just a fact. We were able to keep up for a long time, finding busy work for people but we're starting to see the end game. You're not putting that genie back in the bottle no matter how hard you try.

Well that solves that then. Time to get on the government tit and vote myself the the rich mans purse then. No use in fighting the man any longer.

If you can't beat them, join them.

 

[desy]

"These days, it makes no difference whether you look at the charts of property prices and debt in Canada, or in Australia, Norway, Hong Kong, China, or Singapore; the charts all look the same and show the same classic bubble pattern. The world is caught up in an epidemic of post-2009 bubbles, but the vast majority of people are completely unaware and in denial.

Here are a few terrifying statistics that show how dangerous China’s economic bubble is:
•China’s total domestic credit more than doubled to $23 trillion from $9 trillion in 2008, which is equivalent to adding the entire U.S. commercial banking sector.
•Borrowing has risen as a share of China’s national income to more than 200 percent, from 135 percent in 2008.
•China’s credit growth rate is now faster than Japan’s before its 1990 bust and America’s before 2008, with half of that growth in the shadow-banking sector.

The post-2009 economic bubbles are the primary reason why the global economy started growing again because bubbles create temporary growth booms before ending in crises. When the post-2009 bubbles pop, global economic growth is going to sink (and there will not be a quick recovery like last time), which will reduce demand for oil."

http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml

China can't afford us either as their economy grew on the back of making us stuff but offering credit at the same time to buy their stuff so when we default voila

 

[Engineer]

Technology also creates jobs.

All those poor horse trainers were lost to the automobile. Can anyone honestly say that cars are horrible for the economy? Cars are far more productive than horses, and have a far less impact on the environment.

and just think how much better off we would all be if we could offshore the entire US automotive industry to people who make less than 10% of what current automotive workers make. Hell, we would all be in paradise with the new found money that we would all spend and invest.

Can't wait....

 

[Texashiker]

Technology also creates jobs.

Show me the factories technology creates.

Microsoft can only hire X number of developers.

Apple can only hire X number of engineers.

While on the other hand the companies who make the smartphones hire tens of thousands.

We have turned into a lazy nation of fatties who are too good for a hard days work.

 

[ControlD]

Show me the factories technology creates.

Microsoft can only hire X number of developers.

Apple can only hire X number of engineers.

While on the other hand the companies who make the smartphones hire tens of thousands.

We have turned into a lazy nation of fatties who are too good for a hard days work.

I think you just answered your own question there. Technology is responsible for the smartphone in the first place. The problem (or the argument at least) is where the technology is being turned into goods, not technology itself.

 

[realibrad]

Show me the factories technology creates.

Microsoft can only hire X number of developers.

Apple can only hire X number of engineers.

While on the other hand the companies who make the smartphones hire tens of thousands.

We have turned into a lazy nation of fatties who are too good for a hard days work.

OMG really. If you are going to lob that soft ball, ill swing.

The first easy one is Cars>Horses.

But, there is a better overall one I can make. Agriculture technology allows us to produce more food than we ever have. Couple that with with medical technology and you have a huge population boom. That creates a massive Ag demand in the world. That demand drove industries to create things like....cars. Cars are built in factories. Modern factories are largely mechanized, but before they were, the technology created more people, and more demand, and more things to produce.

There is no way that you though out your post. Technology has often supported booms in population. The problem is that we have not have the innovation to keep up with population. Society is wealthiest when technology and the productivity outpace population.

 

[realibrad]

and just think how much better off we would all be if we could offshore the entire US automotive industry to people who make less than 10% of what current automotive workers make. Hell, we would all be in paradise with the new found money that we would all spend and invest.

Can't wait....

Division of labor limited by the extent of the market!

 

[Texashiker]

I think you just answered your own question there. Technology is responsible for the smartphone in the first place. The problem (or the argument at least) is where the technology is being turned into goods, not technology itself.

There is no way that you though out your post. Technology has often supported booms in population. The problem is that we have not have the innovation to keep up with population. Society is wealthiest when technology and the productivity outpace population.

Before free trade: Someone invents something, builds factory, invention supports local economy, jobs, families, people and business paid taxes. Everyone benefited.

After free trade: Someone invents something, idea is sent to china for mass production, sent back to the US to be sold. Only people benefiting are the people who make the ideas.

 

[Engineer]

Division of labor limited by the extent of the market!

Nah, just takes a few more free trade agreements. We'll be great then.

 

[realibrad]

Nah, just takes a few more free trade agreements. We'll be great then.

So economic isolationism FTW, despite every counterexample through history!

 

[Texashiker]

So economic isolationism FTW, despite every counterexample through history!

Get it through your thick head, fair trade, not isolationism or free trade.

We have to do something to protect our jobs and tax dollars.

 

[realibrad]

Get it through your thick head, fair trade, not isolationism or free trade.

We have to do something to protect our jobs and tax dollars.

Im not sure I understand. He is advocating against the policies of free trade, which is isolationism. It sure seems like a continuum from here.

 

[Texashiker]

Im not sure I understand. He is advocating against the policies of free trade, which is isolationism.

Protectionism is advocating against free trade.

Isolationism is advocating little to no trade.

 

[Engineer]

So economic isolationism FTW, despite every counterexample through history!

If you want to talk 'fair trade'....but until then, we're just shooting ourselves in the dick.

 

[realibrad]

Isolationism - is a category of foreign policies institutionalized by leaders who asserted that their nations' best interests were best served by keeping the affairs of other countries at a distance.

Protectionism – Relates more often to economics, its proponents believe that there should be legal barriers in order to control trade and cultural exchange with people in other states

Protectionism is Isolationism but with an economic twist. Economic policies are still policies.

All dalmatians have spots, all dalmatians are dogs, not all dogs have spots type of thing.

 

[realibrad]

If you want to talk 'fair trade'....but until then, we're just shooting ourselves in the dick.

Well I do like my dick, so lets talk fair trade.


Show me your fair trade ideas and Ill show you mine.

 

[BoberFett]

Technology also creates jobs.

All those poor horse trainers were lost to the automobile. Can anyone honestly say that cars are horrible for the economy? Cars are far more productive than horses, and have a far less impact on the environment.

Over time technology creates fewer jobs than it displaces. Eventually we'll run out of jobs to be created, and we're starting to see that now.

 

[realibrad]

Over time technology creates fewer jobs than it displaces. Eventually we'll run out of jobs to be created, and we're starting to see that now.

Maybe, or maybe not. That has been the argument for a long while, and for hundreds of years its not been the case yet. I see the logical conclusion, but the world has a funny way of making you think one thing, and creating another.

 

[Texashiker]

Maybe, or maybe not. That has been the argument for a long while, and for hundreds of years its not been the case yet. I see the logical conclusion, but the world has a funny way of making you think one thing, and creating another.

One example:

http://www.shipbuildinghistory.com/history/shipyards/2large/inactive/levingston.htm

Levingston shipyard in orange Texas, shutdown in 1982, those jobs are gone forever. The shipyard was dismantled and sold off. All that sits there now is barren land.

At its peak the shipyard employed a little over 20,000 people.

 

[1prophet]

Regan is laughing his ass off.

Because #1, people actually believed his lies and #2, no one is doing anything about it (getting rid of the tax cuts, etc.).

Congress had no problem vetoing Reagan when it came down to it even when it cost corporations money and the house was controlled by Democrats for his 8 years,

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/10/03/politics/03REAG.html


That's why it's disingenuous at best to hear today's supposedly enlightened Liberal Democrats to continuously blame Reagan for things the Democrat controlled house had to pass in order for him to sign off on,

but point the finger at today's Republican controlled house while excusing the current president who is bosom buddies with the corporate elite and does their bidding while pretending to be for the middle class.

 

[realibrad]

One example:

http://www.shipbuildinghistory.com/history/shipyards/2large/inactive/levingston.htm

Levingston shipyard in orange Texas, shutdown in 1982, those jobs are gone forever. The shipyard was dismantled and sold off. All that sits there now is barren land.

At its peak the shipyard employed a little over 20,000 people.

Your argument is that a shipyard shut down, and thus technology killed the jobs?

 

[z1ggy]

One example:

http://www.shipbuildinghistory.com/history/shipyards/2large/inactive/levingston.htm

Levingston shipyard in orange Texas, shutdown in 1982, those jobs are gone forever. The shipyard was dismantled and sold off. All that sits there now is barren land.

At its peak the shipyard employed a little over 20,000 people.

These companies do the same thing many people do everyday:

Do you go to the little guy grocery store and pay $5 for a loaf of bread, or do you head on over to WallyWorld and buy the exact same product for $3.

Even if you go to the little guy for small stuff like bread, etc you sure as heck won't be going to him for large items.

I was shopping for flowers two weekends ago and the local little guy sold a plant for $30. The same plant with just as nice of a quality as he sold was $16 at Lowes. How can I as a consumer justify spending more money for the same product?

That's how these companies think. Apple gives 0% fucks about employing John Doe to assemble and iPhone for $15 an hour when he can pay Ming-Li $2 an hour to do the same exact thing.

People want to buy the most stuff they can for the lowest price possible, while companies want to sell it to them for the highest price possible.

 

[Engineer]

Your argument is that a shipyard shut down, and thus technology killed the jobs?

That wasn't about technology, the real reason that the shipyard closed down is because another country (don't remember which - South Korea perhaps?) took the worlds shipping by storm and now make about 90% (IIRC) of our ships.

 

[realibrad]

That wasn't about technology, the real reason that the shipyard closed down is because another country (don't remember which - South Korea perhaps?) took the worlds shipping by storm and now make about 90% (IIRC) of our ships.

Oh, I thought because he replied to my tech comment that he was making the connection.

Sure, competition means you may lose some jobs in some sectors. But overall for the US, competition is a good thing for society, and not just those at the top.