Middle class - worse off than the numbers show

[Engineer]

"Free trade, bringing the US down to everyone else's standard of living since 1991!"

Funny that before free trade and deregulation we had a strong middle class, employees had pensions and benefits. Now with free trade and deregulation, the top 3% or so and especially the top 0.01% have seen massive increases in wealth, but everyone else as a group is treading water or backsliding.

Please tell me again how "free trade" is going to save the day.

BTW: What we have is anything except free, we give other countries full access to our markets and then set caps on how much we can sell there. A free trade agreement should only be one sentence, but somehow ours are hundreds of pages long. It is about time the US actually puts her interest first instead of last.

Excellent! :thumbsup:

 

[Zorba]

There is no way the "Poor" could have AC and cell phones without globalization.

The most expensive part of AC is the electricity, which is made in the US, using mostly US made equipment.

Most central air units are also made in the US, at least most of the ones I've dealt with. The price of AC units has come down with the improvement in technology.

 

[Olikan]

I worked in one about a decade ago. The factory jobs for the millions of uneducated isnt there anymore. That is my point. People want to go back to 1950 where any uneducated fool could work in a factory and make good money. It just isn't going to happen. May as well move forward and realize that now.

it never really worked that way, ppl were complaning about "machines took our jobs" since the very first industrial revolution

the 50s only existed in the hystory of capitalism, because of 2 consecutive world wars (acumulation), the new deal (redistribution) and europe in ashes (the defeat of competition) happening all in less than 50 years

 

[z1ggy]

Free trade helped kill off tens of thousands of skilled jobs.




that is fine and dandy, and I price shop also, but when we have a record number of people on welfare, and a record number of young adults living with mom and dad, something will have to give.

In 10 - 20 years are we going to see 3 generations of a family living in the same home?

Are we going to see kids and grandkids living off baby boomers social security checks?

In 20 - 25 years when my generation gets ready to retire, will our kids and grandkids need to live with my generation?

I really hope not. But the baby boomer/SS issue is totally different than the welfare thing. Caused by two different things

Yes we are spoiled.

We have grown accustomed to instant gratification.

We have grown accustomed to easy credit and living beyond our means.

It's as much the banks/large corps faults as it is the consumer. Banks hand out credit cards to people like hot cakes knowing damn well they won't be able to pay off these debts. Then that person either defaults and ruins their credit or ends up in an endless cycle of debt paying- just like those banks want.

 

[Genx87]

Yep, but at least I understand that the US is the economy that feeds me. It dies, the rest go with it. Call me a nationalistic hypocrite....I'm fine with that.

Well at least you can admit it.

 

[realibrad]

"Free trade, bringing the US down to everyone else's standard of living since 1991!"

Funny that before free trade and deregulation we had a strong middle class, employees had pensions and benefits. Now with free trade and deregulation, the top 3% or so and especially the top 0.01% have seen massive increases in wealth, but everyone else as a group is treading water or backsliding.

Please tell me again how "free trade" is going to save the day.

BTW: What we have is anything except free, we give other countries full access to our markets and then set caps on how much we can sell there. A free trade agreement should only be one sentence, but somehow ours are hundreds of pages long. It is about time the US actually puts her interest first instead of last.

Depends on what day you are trying to save. The world population is larger than ever. The only reason its able to grow at its levels is because of efficiency gains. If we were to use the same farming methods that we did in the 70s, there would be far less people on this planet. And, we see from history that people always reproduce, no matter what. So, how do we keep all these people alive? By doing things the most efficient way possible. Globalization is one of the key things that makes the world more efficient.

Global trade has allowed things to be produced at a far lower cost. I'm talking about economic cost, and not financial cost. Doing things cheaply means more goods, and more goods means more people get to have things. Unless you want people to have less things, and a worse life, globalization is the way to go. Do any research on the const benefit of globalization and you will come to the same conclusion.

I have never met someone, no matter their political ideology that did not.

 

[Engineer]

Depends on what day you are trying to save. The world population is larger than ever. The only reason its able to grow at its levels is because of efficiency gains. If we were to use the same farming methods that we did in the 70s, there would be far less people on this planet. And, we see from history that people always reproduce, no matter what. So, how do we keep all these people alive? By doing things the most efficient way possible. Globalization is one of the key things that makes the world more efficient.

Global trade has allowed things to be produced at a far lower cost. I'm talking about economic cost, and not financial cost. Doing things cheaply means more goods, and more goods means more people get to have things. Unless you want people to have less things, and a worse life, globalization is the way to go. Do any research on the const benefit of globalization and you will come to the same conclusion.

I have never met someone, no matter their political ideology that did not.

Looking at the good ole middle class in the US, I don't come to that conclusion at all. The people at the top are benefiting. The middle and the bottom are declining. Becoming a nation of buying and selling to each other vs a nation of producers. Becoming a nation of welfare....and possibly, soon to be full on socialization.

Stage #6 of every death of every empire in history was to use the slave labor or conquered lands to provide your goods and services. Looks like USA is on the good ole #6 right now.

 

[Genx87]

Looking at the good ole middle class in the US, I don't come to that conclusion at all. The people at the top are benefiting. The middle and the bottom are declining. Becoming a nation of buying and selling to each other vs a nation of producers. Becoming a nation of welfare....and possibly, soon to be full on socialization.

Stage #6 of every death of every empire in history was to use the slave labor or conquered lands to provide your goods and services. Looks like USA is on the good ole #6 right now.

Where are we using slave labor or conquered lands to provide goods and services? Is this where you try to tell us and avg wage of 44,000\person in this country is slave labor? Or that employing some brown person across the world for higher than they would make working in the streets is slave labor?

 

[BoberFett]

"Free trade, bringing the US down to everyone else's standard of living since 1991!"

Funny that before free trade and deregulation we had a strong middle class, employees had pensions and benefits. Now with free trade and deregulation, the top 3% or so and especially the top 0.01% have seen massive increases in wealth, but everyone else as a group is treading water or backsliding.

Please tell me again how "free trade" is going to save the day.

BTW: What we have is anything except free, we give other countries full access to our markets and then set caps on how much we can sell there. A free trade agreement should only be one sentence, but somehow ours are hundreds of pages long. It is about time the US actually puts her interest first instead of last.

Not sure what your point is. What gave us a strong middle class was bombing the shit out of the rest of the world and sending millions of men to their deaths. Plenty of industry came out of that.

How's the North Korean economy? No free trade problems to blame there.

 

[realibrad]

Looking at the good ole middle class in the US, I don't come to that conclusion at all. The people at the top are benefiting. The middle and the bottom are declining. Becoming a nation of buying and selling to each other vs a nation of producers. Becoming a nation of welfare....and possibly, soon to be full on socialization.

Stage #6 of every death of every empire in history was to use the slave labor or conquered lands to provide your goods and services. Looks like USA is on the good ole #6 right now.

Well I guess we are done here if that is the best argument you have.

 

[desy]

You think life today is better than the 70's?
I grew up in the 70's and have some perspective on that and I never went to bed hungry or cold and clothes on my back.
Who says more people on the planet is a good thing? and having things? I don't feel markedly happier having more things today, we used to get our comic books used on exchange and go to the library to read books and knew our neighbors.

http://neoskosmos.com/news/en/consumerism-and-poverty

"Unregulated globalisation driven by an unquenchable thirst for consumerism can be considered as one of the many contributing factors to the ravaging socio-economic turmoil of modern times. The gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots" has become so great mankind will have an upright struggle to ever recover from its effect."

BTW don't get me wrong our own selfishness compounds the problem, politicians unwilling to do what is right simply to 'put a chicken in every pot' regardless of the evidence that's not possible and on and on. Nobody ever like to be told to expect less

 

[realibrad]

You think life today is better than the 70's?
I grew up in the 70's and have some perspective on that and I never went to bed hungry or cold and clothes on my back.
Who says more people on the planet is a good thing? and having things? I don't feel markedly happier having more things today, we used to get our comic books used on exchange and go to the library to read books and knew our neighbors.

http://neoskosmos.com/news/en/consumerism-and-poverty

"Unregulated globalisation driven by an unquenchable thirst for consumerism can be considered as one of the many contributing factors to the ravaging socio-economic turmoil of modern times. The gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots" has become so great mankind will have an upright struggle to ever recover from its effect."

So how was life better back in the 70s?

 

[desy]

What makes it better now?
Technology is better, but I wanted for nothing back then either, if you have the basics and social support what else do you assume a person needs, 3000 sq ft instead of 1000? More rooms to fill with stuff, Organized sports at the gyms and arena instead of pickup games at the school grounds? I spent days riding my bike around the neighborhood outside, my kids rarely spend time outside with friends is that better? Playing Xbox instead of hide and seek.
Its a different reality but you can't assume technological progress means happiness it just means its different.

 

[Olikan]

What makes it better now?
Technology is better, but I wanted for nothing back then either, if you have the basics and social support what else do you assume a person needs, 3000 sq ft instead of 1000? More rooms to fill with stuff, Organized sports at the gyms and arena instead of pickup games at the school grounds? I spent days riding my bike around the neighborhood outside, my kids rarely spend time outside with friends is that better? Playing Xbox instead of hide and seek.
Its a different reality but you can't assume technological progress means happiness it just means its different.

i still see alot of hide and seek, little kids still like to run around
places that have alot less traffic and people walking around, favour open activities... even when there is wifi

it comes down to the same problem: overpopulation

 

[Londo_Jowo]

You think life today is better than the 70's?
I grew up in the 70's and have some perspective on that and I never went to bed hungry or cold and clothes on my back.
Who says more people on the planet is a good thing? and having things? I don't feel markedly happier having more things today, we used to get our comic books used on exchange and go to the library to read books and knew our neighbors.

Nor did I when I grew up in the 60's and 70's in a small Virginia town. In fact I never met anyone that struggled to eat throughout my school years. I heard about those who did in large cities. Back then you rarely heard of single parent family or people having children out of wedlock much less several children from different partners. Minimum wage was paid to teenagers working in grocery stores or K-Mart. Most teens were paid above minimum wage within a year of working at a given location.

 

[Olikan]

Back then you rarely heard of single parent family or people having children out of wedlock much less several children from different partners.

from different partners, only 2 bastards kids that i know

but the number of forced weddings, because of an unexpected pregnancy was insane.... really, a third of my friends were born this way (including me )

maybe things were crazyer in the small rural cityes :awe:

 

[Engineer]

Well I guess we are done here if that is the best argument you have.

Your argument is that the poor are better off. You mention nothing about about the middle class in decline, joining the ranks of the poor. What more argument do you need?

 

[BoberFett]

What makes it better now?
Technology is better, but I wanted for nothing back then either, if you have the basics and social support what else do you assume a person needs, 3000 sq ft instead of 1000? More rooms to fill with stuff, Organized sports at the gyms and arena instead of pickup games at the school grounds? I spent days riding my bike around the neighborhood outside, my kids rarely spend time outside with friends is that better? Playing Xbox instead of hide and seek.
Its a different reality but you can't assume technological progress means happiness it just means its different.

If all you want is a tiny living space and very few things today like you had in the 70s, that can be had very cheaply today without a large income.

Of course very few people want that. They want all the modern trappings and feel they deserve the income to provide it.

Good luck America, you're going to need it.

 

[BoberFett]

Nor did I when I grew up in the 60's and 70's in a small Virginia town. In fact I never met anyone that struggled to eat throughout my school years. I heard about those who did in large cities. Back then you rarely heard of single parent family or people having children out of wedlock much less several children from different partners. Minimum wage was paid to teenagers working in grocery stores or K-Mart. Most teens were paid above minimum wage within a year of working at a given location.

And frankly nobody should really not be able to afford to eat today. I've known people on food stamps. Something interesting about all of them was that despite not being able to feed themselves, the whole family all had their own smart phones with data plans, never thought twice about eating out, went out drinking several nights a week.

Priorities have changed in the US. Living in a small home and eating is still affordable. It's all the extras that people get caught up spending money on that make the necessities hard to afford.

 

[bshole]

So how was life better back in the 70s?

People beat off to real life magazines instead of computers....

 

[Londo_Jowo]

And frankly nobody should really not be able to afford to eat today. I've known people on food stamps. Something interesting about all of them was that despite not being able to feed themselves, the whole family all had their own smart phones with data plans, never thought twice about eating out, went out drinking several nights a week.

Priorities have changed in the US. Living in a small home and eating is still affordable. It's all the extras that people get caught up spending money on that make the necessities hard to afford.

Many live beyonds their means these days. Rather than buy a house that I qualified to buy I bought one I could afford, i refinanced last year and it reduced my house payment by $400 a month. I have a 2008 Trailblazer LS and 2011 Aveo LT with no loans on either. Granted I do have the AT&T $160 plan for the family, all phones are 2 years old. I am guilty of splurging on TV and internet.

 

[MongGrel]

It's just a screwed job in general atm, period.

The idiots still supporting the Upper Class are morons in so many ways.

Living beyond you're means has nothing to do with it, I've been relatively frugal and have done "what I should have" all my life, no boats etc, have saved, still getting screwed up the ass.

At least the savings I still managed to put away are still earning close to 3/4 on what I made last year working.

How fucked up is that in reality, when most people can't have that in place all ready.

I used to make a lot more, but my old 401K actually did that well in comparison to going to work on a daily basis, even have a few others but I mean fucking really?

It's getting pathetic.

 

[MongGrel]

And frankly nobody should really not be able to afford to eat today. I've known people on food stamps. Something interesting about all of them was that despite not being able to feed themselves, the whole family all had their own smart phones with data plans, never thought twice about eating out, went out drinking several nights a week.

Priorities have changed in the US. Living in a small home and eating is still affordable. It's all the extras that people get caught up spending money on that make the necessities hard to afford.

You've known people on food stamps?

I'd like to bitch slap you right now.

I have been through a divorce before I had to do everything I could to even eat on a daily basis working my ass off and pay the heating bills.

*edit* I'll revise it a bit, I've never been on them myself, but that just sounded so stupid.

Phones are just stupidity in those type of instances.

 

[MongGrel]

I work with one Millenial type on a daily basis with a Smart phone who comes to work every day bitching and moaning every day about his stupidity and I really want to knock his head off now and then.

Among other things, kids with kids can be pretty dumb these days.

 

[yllus]

Complaining about free trade or globalization is akin to complaining about automation or technology eliminating jobs. They are all inevitable because under capitalism, humanity is strongly incented to minimize costs and maximum profits.

What the U.S. faces uniquely is that your system of taxation does less to smooth out the extremes of your young and poor than any other Western country. That's in some ways a good thing - it makes it the country to move to if you want to make it really big - but there's a negative to it as well. I think it makes a lot more sense to try to address the problem with more progressive taxation than to try to ignore the reality of globalization.