Middle class - worse off than the numbers show

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Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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Your argument is that a shipyard shut down, and thus technology killed the jobs?

Free trade helped kill off tens of thousands of skilled jobs.


People want to buy the most stuff they can for the lowest price possible, while companies want to sell it to them for the highest price possible.

that is fine and dandy, and I price shop also, but when we have a record number of people on welfare, and a record number of young adults living with mom and dad, something will have to give.

In 10 - 20 years are we going to see 3 generations of a family living in the same home?

Are we going to see kids and grandkids living off baby boomers social security checks?

In 20 - 25 years when my generation gets ready to retire, will our kids and grandkids need to live with my generation?
 

MagickMan

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2008
7,460
3
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What's the point of money if not to spend it? I don't mean spending every dime you earn and going into debt, mind you, but I also don't understand the mentality that you need to hoard and save every penny until you die. At what point is it OK to actually spend money to improve your lifestyle? The extremes at either end strike me as equally stupid.

Investing/saving 20% of your income isn't "extreme". Paying off your CCs isn't "extreme". Living within a budget isn't "extreme". Americans want it all, and the sooner the better, that's where things break down.

What other people make or own doesn't apply to you, worrying and bitching about it won't change a thing and only makes you bitter and poor. Take care of your own business and lifestyle.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
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londojowo.hypermart.net
That wasn't about technology, the real reason that the shipyard closed down is because another country (don't remember which - South Korea perhaps?) took the worlds shipping by storm and now make about 90% (IIRC) of our ships.

Levingston built drilling rigs and the shipbuilding companies in Singapore took over their business. You are correct that South Korea has the most shipbuilders that are capable of manufacturing large ships. Most of the ships built in the US are for the US Navy.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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Killed or moved? Very important difference. Because, you could then say that competition is horrible, because it can kill off competitors jobs.

Moved to Asia.

Our ship, barge, offshore drilling rig production is a fraction of what it was in the 1970s. Without jobs certain skills have been lost to history.

Instead of learning how to weld, operate a crane, run a forklift, bend metal, run a hole punch, plate rolls, press, sheers,,, young men are learning how to sell cheap goods made in china.

In a few years we will be a skill-less nation.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Killed or moved? Very important difference. Because, you could then say that competition is horrible, because it can kill off competitors jobs.

Both, because the skilled trades aren't needed in Chinese factories nearly as much as they were used in US, more advanced manufacturing, factories. Closing down a semi automated factory in the US results in anyone skilled in programming/taking care of that automation losing their job. Once enough people are pushed out, they move on and the stigma of being bad (manufacturing) causes younger people to avoid looking at that type of work. Even if you try to start up again, the skilled trades that you need are no longer there to support. That's exactly what the Walmart story stated...once gone, it's nearly impossible to get the level of skill back.

The Chinese factory has many hand laborers. Very little skilled labor because of very little automation.
 
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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The main issue is that US workers right now are way more productive than China's. There multiple reasons for that, but competition has caused China to improve, but with out reforms, China is stuck. Even the hard line government understands this, and are slowly opening up their economy. The more China grows, the more the US sees a benefit. You have a huge pool of people coming out of poverty and they will want things. The US still produces a huge number of things.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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You haven't been in a modern day US factory. It's obvious.

But I guess the alternative, millions of people working at Walmart, McDonalds, KFC is far better, especially with those companies actively promoting ideas on how their workers can get on various welfare plans. Always better to sell stuff to each other than it is to make stuff.

I worked in one about a decade ago. The factory jobs for the millions of uneducated isnt there anymore. That is my point. People want to go back to 1950 where any uneducated fool could work in a factory and make good money. It just isn't going to happen. May as well move forward and realize that now.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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Good for you. I guess those people and their economic status have no effect on your economic situation...in other words, I've got mine, fuck them.

That's your opinion and I've got mine. Again, I don't give a shit about the rest of the world. They can take care of their own problems.

Isn't that what you are basically telling the world?
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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That's exactly what the Walmart story stated...once gone, it's nearly impossible to get the level of skill back.

Because you need skilled craftsmen with years of experience to pass that knowledge down to the next generation.

We are facing a generational knowledge gap.

We have lost the knowledge on everything from making our own steel to building stuff.

There are still people out here who know how to manufacture a product. I can strip and rebuild a shell and tube heat exchanger shell. But that does not mean I want to.

I think part of the problem is people have grown lazy. Nobody wants to do hot dirty work, then the complain they can not find a good paying job. I do not know how many times I saw people hired in a welding shop, then they quit within a few days.
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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Get it through your thick head, fair trade, not isolationism or free trade.

We have to do something to protect our jobs and tax dollars.

Protecting jobs and tax dollars and the welfare state is just code for isolationism.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Good for you. I guess those people and their economic status have no effect on your economic situation...in other words, I've got mine, fuck them.

That's your opinion and I've got mine. Again, I don't give a shit about the rest of the world. They can take care of their own problems.

Wait, isn't that YOUR attitude? As long as the US has theirs, fuck the world?

And then do you honestly believe the economic status of the rest of the world doesn't affect you?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Because you need skilled craftsmen with years of experience to pass that knowledge down to the next generation.

We are facing a generational knowledge gap.

We have lost the knowledge on everything from making our or steel to building stuff.

There are still people out here who know how to do stuff. I can strip and rebuild a shell and tube heat exchanger shell. But that does not mean I want to.

I think part of the problem is people have grown lazy. Nobody wants to do hot dirty work, then the complain they can not find a good paying job.

Different perspective. Its not that people are lazy, as much as they look to make things more efficient. There is an opportunity cost to knowledge, so becoming skilled in something, means you gave up something else. Time is limited and you can only learn so much.

Again, division of labor limited by the extent of the market. When people get more free time, they can become more specialized. When people become more specialized, they can become more productive. When people become more productive, society and its wealth improves.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Isn't that what you are basically telling the world?

Yep, but at least I understand that the US is the economy that feeds me. It dies, the rest go with it. Call me a nationalistic hypocrite....I'm fine with that.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
And then do you honestly believe the economic status of the rest of the world doesn't affect you?

Sure it does. So called 'free trade' agreements are sucking the life out of the economy around me. We keep borrowing money from the very people that we are 'free trading' with in hopes to keep the boat afloat. Looks like it's going down captain unless we plug the damn hole. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if the entire boat goes down, we're ALL going down with it.

Again, call me a nationalistic hypocrite...I don't give a shit of anyone's opinion on that.

Want to see the tunes change, start sending technology jobs out at the same pace as the manufacturing. People in these forums will cry like babies.
 
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Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Different perspective. Its not that people are lazy, as much as they look to make things more efficient.

Job 1: Take this air grinder, go into that pipe and grind a weld down flush. While you are running the grinder you will need to wear long sleeve shirt, face shield, safety glasses, ear plugs and dust mask. This is also during July and its 100 degrees outside. You only get paid $10 an hour.

Job 2: Sit on a stool at Best Buy in the AC and make $8.

Job 3: Go to work in a refinery, not full time, 7 days a week 12 hours a day, working in the weather, could get laid off at anytime. This job pays $14 an hour.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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898
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Yep, but at least I understand that the US is the economy that feeds me. It dies, the rest go with it. Call me a nationalistic hypocrite....I'm fine with that.

So why draw the line at national pride. States over Country, Cities over state, ect.

I still dont feel like you have a good argument for any of those though. Not that you have to prove anything to me, but I just can wrap my head around your point of view. You are better off under globalization.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
In 10 - 20 years are we going to see 3 generations of a family living in the same home?

In 20 - 25 years when my generation gets ready to retire, will our kids and grandkids need to live with my generation?

Oh the horror!

You know that's not uncommon, even in other first world countries. The US is a spoiled child, and we're getting a dose of reality.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
If the banks declare bankruptcy, all of the toxic assets are wiped clean and the bank is perfectly solvent again. The only down side is that the bank's bonds and stocks would go to 0, and oligarchs like Warren Buffet would lose billions of dollars. The depositors would lose nothing.
The point of QE was to keep the banks solvent without driving their stock prices to zero. It was a gigantic welfare payment to the richest of the rich.

So, uhh, pensions & mutuals (401k's) aren't invested in the financial sector? In MBS?

QE teaches bankers that there are zero consequences for imprudent business practices. This creates a huge moral hazard. Why bother trying to maintain a well capitalized bank if the fed will backstop everything? If something risky makes money, the bank keeps the money. If it falls flat, the fed promises to buy the toxic assets at par. This strongly encourages banks to screw around.

That was quite true during the Bush years. The Greenspan Put was in place, dating from LTCM in 1998. That doesn't mean that the FRB paid par in 2009, at all, nor are they operating under the same cashflow constraints as the rest of the industry. Several large financial institutions did fail, threatening cascading collapse of the industry & the economy. It wasn't really so much about that, anyway, as about the changed structure of the industry & the Bush Admin's extremely lax regulatory interpretation & enforcement. The consequences to the firm don't matter anyway to hired guns incentivized by enormous salaries & bonuses. One year of that & you're set for life. More is just gravy.

Obviously, this wasn't abut particular institutions but rather the whole industry. Like it or not, we need that industry to function in a continuous manner. Just as obviously, the boom bust cycles of deregulated finanicialized capitalism don't provide that. History is full of such examples, 2008 only being the most recent.

So what you're saying is that losing a company representing 20% of car sales would cause car sales to immediately and permanently drop by 20%. No other car company would see increased sales, no other car company would build new factories, no other car company would open more dealerships. Yeah, that makes sense.

That's a strawman argument, because I didn't say that. What I did say was that if GM goes broke, then component suppliers that other makers depend upon go broke too, forcing them to cease production, lay off more workers, which is exactly what we don't need when employment is falling through the floor anyway. When people don't have the money to buy cars, then there's no point to invest in tooling up to make car parts. We were not far away at all from a cascading deflationary spiral in 2008, and we're not completely away from it even now. Witness low inflation in the face of enormous injections of liquidity. Even with that, we're barely staying out of the red zone.

Had the govt & the FRB not found ways to prevent that, we'd be living in the same sort of economic circumstances seen in the aftermath of every great speculative crash in history.

The key, of course, is to place structural constraints on the industry thus preventing exploitable conflicts of interest. There's no way that Libertarian banking can deliver anything other than what it always has, cycles of boom & bust that serve the common people, the broad middle class, not at all.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
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Job 1: Take this air grinder, go into that pipe and grind a weld down flush. While you are running the grinder you will need to wear long sleeve shirt, face shield, safety glasses, ear plugs and dust mask. This is also during July and its 100 degrees outside. You only get paid $10 an hour.

Job 2: Sit on a stool at Best Buy in the AC and make $8.

Job 3: Go to work in a refinery, not full time, 7 days a week 12 hours a day, working in the weather, could get laid off at anytime. This job pays $14 an hour.

Are you asking me which job would make me the best off?

Protectionism ( ;) ) would mean that you get less competition and that would likely mean things are less productive. Less productivity means less diversity due to the fact that the market is now far more limited. That means fewer jobs. Increase the market, increase the diversity, increase the options for jobs. I would much rather make 10/hr if I got to work in a comfortable place, vs 11 in a hell hole.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Oh the horror!

You know that's not uncommon, even in other first world countries. The US is a spoiled child, and we're getting a dose of reality.

Yes we are spoiled.

We have grown accustomed to instant gratification.

We have grown accustomed to easy credit and living beyond our means.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
So tell that to the shrinking middle class. Tell them to all go to college and everything will be OK. I'm sure they will lap it up. You sure have.

I try to, but most people dont understand.

If you tell them that we are better off today, than 20 years ago, nobody believes you. When you show them all the things globalization has made affordable, they say what you do. Yeah, but nobody can afford those things, which is funny, because most people have those things.

So now we are back to the same thing we were before. The "Poor" of today are far better of than the "Poor" of 20 years ago. There is no way the "Poor" could have AC and cell phones without globalization.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
So now we are back to the same thing we were before. The "Poor" of today are far better of than the "Poor" of 20 years ago. There is no way the "Poor" could have AC and cell phones without globalization.

and don't forget the welfare that helps them pay for it. Keep going and the number of poor will be the only thing growing in the US.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,256
136
Oh the horror!

You know that's not uncommon, even in other first world countries. The US is a spoiled child, and we're getting a dose of reality.

"Free trade, bringing the US down to everyone else's standard of living since 1991!"

Funny that before free trade and deregulation we had a strong middle class, employees had pensions and benefits. Now with free trade and deregulation, the top 3% or so and especially the top 0.01% have seen massive increases in wealth, but everyone else as a group is treading water or backsliding.

Please tell me again how "free trade" is going to save the day.

BTW: What we have is anything except free, we give other countries full access to our markets and then set caps on how much we can sell there. A free trade agreement should only be one sentence, but somehow ours are hundreds of pages long. It is about time the US actually puts her interest first instead of last.