Middle class - worse off than the numbers show

[Genx87]

Who do you think built your roads, your bridges, the refineries that made your plastics, gasoline, diesel and rubber?

Manual labor is nothing to be ashamed of.



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Where did you get working manual labor is something to be ashamed of in my response? I think you are projecting. My point is working ourselves to death in a factory as a nation isnt something to be revered or a goal to achieve.

 

[realibrad]

ok? And how many people died early deaths because they were literally working themselves to death? I don't understand the fascination with the "good" old days. Work consisted of a lot more manual labor 50+ years ago. I don't consider going back to that as a whole as progressing as a nation.

My statement was about how you had the option. I think we would likely agree that having the option to work your way up, gather skills and progress upward should be an option no? I'm not saying we shift all of our focus from college to manual labor, but I think the dynamism created by doing so would be a net gain. Allowing people who are not going to get a net return on a college degree to work from the bottom up should not be disincentivized.

Entry to the labor market is becoming much harder with out the expense of a degree. I cannot see the benefit to that system over a system where both happen freely and the government not incentivizing one over the other.

 

[realibrad]

2013:

TOTAL 2013 121,736.4 440,447.7 -318,711.3 (billions of dollars).

What does the net matter, when that capital is largely reinvested back into the us. A trade deficit is not inherently bad.

 

[BoberFett]

The stimulus & the bailout mostly saved the financial sector. That's good for all of us- it's not like we don't need it. Are you trying to say that there should have been no stimulus, or that it should have been structured differently with a lot more direct govt employment?

What is it that could have been done differently to make it better?

Face it, you and your party are failures. You bitch and moan a lot, but that's about it. You have no answers.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

That is fine. But I am failing to see how erecting an economic barrier around our country will provide for a viable middle class in the long term. It will raise prices and make us even less competitive in a global economy.

But we've seen the result of having no barrier. The "global economy" has resulted in middle-class jobs being shipped overseas while corporations are making record profits doing so. And how have corporations rewarded the remaining rank and file employees? By freezing wages for years, passing on more of the cost of benefits to their employees, while at the same time, rewarding executives (even the incompetent ones) with pay, options, and benefits totaling millions of dollars per year. As a shareholder in many of these companies, *THAT* pisses me off. I personally think the government should eliminate some of these tax loopholes businesses use to evade paying taxes and tax them at higher rates or at least, use a formula to tie their taxes to the number of people employed and the average wages of those employed.

We're going to be paying for these underemployed and unemployed one way or another at some point, and I'd rather the government put the impetus on business rather than taxpayers.

Face it, you and your party are failures. You bitch and moan a lot, but that's about it. You have no answers.

The Republicans are elitest assholes who favor the rich and don't bother hiding it; the Democrats are elitist assholes who favor the rich but try to hide it and pretend the other party favors the rich.

 

[Genx87]

My statement was about how you had the option. I think we would likely agree that having the option to work your way up, gather skills and progress upward should be an option no? I'm not saying we shift all of our focus from college to manual labor, but I think the dynamism created by doing so would be a net gain. Allowing people who are not going to get a net return on a college degree to work from the bottom up should not be disincentivized.

Entry to the labor market is becoming much harder with out the expense of a degree. I cannot see the benefit to that system over a system where both happen freely and the government not incentivizing one over the other.

You wont get an argument from me about how our govt is incentivizing people to go into massive debt for a degree that isn't worth the cost. I also agree that there should be avenues for people to get into trades at the highschool level. And I am not looking to eliminate all manual labor neither. I am only arguing going back to having a large % of our workforce in a factory isnt imo desirable.

 

[Engineer]

What does the net matter, when that capital is largely reinvested back into the us. A trade deficit is not inherently bad.

Heh, we buy their plastic shit and they loan us money to fund our ever increasing deficits (a big chunk of which is going to the welfare of former middle class workers). Then, throw in an increasing amount of capital purchases of companies by the Chinese government. Yea, it's all good!

 

[Engineer]

But we've seen the result of having no barrier. The "global economy" has resulted in middle-class jobs being shipped overseas while corporations are making record profits doing so. And how have corporations rewarded the remaining rank and file employees? By freezing wages for years, passing on more of the cost of benefits to their employees, while at the same time, rewarding executives (even the incompetent ones) with pay, options, and benefits totally millions of dollars per year. As a shareholder in many of these companies, *THAT* pisses me off. I personally think the government should eliminate some of these tax loopholes businesses use to evade paying taxes and tax them at higher rates or at least, use a formula to tie their taxes to the number of people employed and the average wages of those employed.

We're going to be paying for these underemployed and unemployed one way or another at some point, and I'd rather the government put the impetus on business rather than taxpayers.

:thumbsup:

 

[Engineer]

Hey I am on the right side of the spectrum. So I don't give much of a damn about people on the outside of our borders. But that wont stop me from pointing out the disengenious nature of the lefts call for equality if it stops at national borders.

Loyalty to my country means finding a solution that involves the real world. Not pretending it is 1950 again with half a world literally burned out world from WWII and the other half being over run by communists who cant run a competitive economy. I'm finding it hard to see how erecting artificial borders will progress our country long term to one of economic prosperity.

You talk about artificial borders...I talk about artificial monetary manipulation by the Chinese and other governments to keep their advantage on wages and products. I talk about illegal dumping by countries (yes, the government of those countries), I talk about 'fair trade', yet people on this board think that the US worker is lazy and overpaid. No wonder, look at the odds that they are against. Corporations don't give a shit about the long term prosperity of the US...and from the looks of the "I have mine, fuck the rest" crowd on here, many of their fellow countrymen don't give a shit either. Just keep watching the foundation get ripped out and when the building finally collapses, you'll know why.

Nobody on this board has never answered the question....does $1.50 in this country buy the same loaf of bread in China as it does here?

Does anyone really think the Chinese are wide open in their borders to our products? Do you think the Chinese government tells the citizens of China that it's OK to go out and buy US products? Yea, sure.

 

[Texashiker]

My point is working ourselves to death in a factory as a nation isnt something to be revered or a goal to achieve.

Why do you feel that way?

 

[realibrad]

Nobody on this board has never answered the question....does $1.50 in this country buy the same loaf of bread in China as it does here?

No.

I don't care about intentions nearly as much as outcomes. Toyota did not sell me a car because they love me, or care about me, they sold it because they wanted money. I did not buy it for any other reason that I though it would be worth my money.

Worry about the outcome first. A growing China means a growing demand. Capitalism has taught us a great many things. 2 of those things are very important here. Division of labor is a great thing. Freeing up time for people to work on the things they are most productive at creates more goods and more wealth. The next is that the division of labor limited by the extent of the market. Grow the market, and you get more specialization. Its a fantastic cycle of wealth production.

You realize that you are arguing an economic conservative ideology right?

 

[Engineer]

My point is working ourselves to death in a factory as a nation isnt something to be revered or a goal to achieve.

You haven't been in a modern day US factory. It's obvious.

But I guess the alternative, millions of people working at Walmart, McDonalds, KFC is far better, especially with those companies actively promoting ideas on how their workers can get on various welfare plans. Always better to sell stuff to each other than it is to make stuff.

 

[BoberFett]

Have you ever done a hard days work in your life? Ever welded, used a cutting torch, ran a forklift, framed a building, used a nail gun,,, ever built something with your own hands?

That hard work is what built America.

Without hard work we are stagnating.

As for your question about cheap labor, yes, we should protect our job markets from cheap labor.

It is us versus them, and they are winning.

Think of all the jobs that cutting torches, forklifts, and nail guns have eliminated. One guy with a nail gun replaces a crew with hammers. Think of the middle class!

 

[Engineer]

Its a fantastic cycle of wealth production.

You realize that you are arguing an economic conservative ideology right?

For who, the top 1%? Because the middle class in this country isn't getting one damn bit of it. I don't give a shit about what ideology it's called.

 

[Texashiker]

A growing China means a growing demand.

Growing demand for what?

What do we make that the typical Chinese factory worker can afford to buy or even want?

A smart phone? That phone is made in china.

A TV? That TV is made in china.

A car? That car is made in china.

 

[Engineer]

Think of all the jobs that cutting torches, forklifts, and nail guns have eliminated. One guy with a nail gun replaces a crew with hammers. Think of the middle class!

Yea, think of factories in the US making the fork lifts, the cutting torches, the nail guns. Think of the automation companies involved in helping to build those factories. Instead, we are replacing the middle class workers with McService jobs by the millions. Great plan....

 

[Engineer]

Growing demand for what?

What do we make that the typical Chinese factory work can afford to buy or even want?

Thank you.

 

[desy]

http://www.limitlessearthplc.com/the-worlds-population-is-getting-wealthier/
Just move!
Seriously, You could go back a decade on these boards and see comments I've made about how corporate globalization is the end of our cushy lifestyle.
It costs $5 bucks to make a shoe in China we charge over $100 for and to pay for that we have borrowed and inflated money to keep the illusion we are wealthy.

It comes as a zero shock to me as the world comes up we are pulled down

 

[BoberFett]

It's more than just stopping all the illegals from coming into the country. I mean, honestly do you really think they are taking all the jobs? They are picking fruit and doing landscaping stuff. Not welding, and building new sky scrapers, etc etc. Also, ( and I don't have time to check) but I'm willing to bet the most welfare recipients are born right here in the good ol US of A.

And it's not the governments job to tell Apple they can't export jobs. I know it's not good for the jobs here, but if companies didn't rely on cheap labor, products would be 10x as expensive as they are now.

Need a set of bed sheets? Oh ok but they were made in America so they cost $200 per set instead of $30.

Good god people have tunnel vision. Illegal immigrants are coming in and doing landscaping. Now there are no landscaping jobs being done, so the citizens who used to make minimum wage doing that now have to train up and compete with people who DO build skyscrapers, creating a labor glut, driving down the price of higher skilled labor.

The world over has a glut of unskilled labor. There's no easy solution for that.

 

[BoberFett]

The last time I saw, the Constitution stops at our border and so does my loyalty. Looks like you have no loyalty to your fellow country man except to say 'sorry about your luck'. Just don't whine about the rising welfare state while promoting globalization. You won't get a damn drop of sympathy from me and your whines.

So in other words, as long as we've got ours, fuck everybody else? Isn't that the attitude that Democrats hate the wealthy for? I'm no more connected to the rest of the people in the US than I am the rest of the people in the world. My loyalty stops at family and friends. Outside of that, fuck everyone else.

 

[Texashiker]

Think of all the jobs that cutting torches, forklifts, and nail guns have eliminated. One guy with a nail gun replaces a crew with hammers. Think of the middle class!

Someone has to make the forklifts, nailguns, welding machines,,,,.

Oh, thats right, those jobs have gone to china.

I was at lowes the other day looking at nailguns. $200 - $300 for a made in china nail gun.

 

[BoberFett]

The Republicans are elitest assholes who favor the rich and don't bother hiding it; the Democrats are elitist assholes who favor the rich but try to hide it and pretend the other party favors the rich.

I can agree with that.

 

[realibrad]

Growing demand for what?

What do we make that the typical Chinese factory worker can afford to buy or even want?

A smart phone? That phone is made in china.

A TV? That TV is made in china.

A car? That car is made in china.

How quickly society forgets. The US went from agriculture to industry, and from there to what we are today. Why did we do this? Was it because we did not like factories? No. It was because families made more wealth in the factory than they did on the farms. They then leveraged that wealth to advance. The upward mobility pulled society out of poverty and into the modern age. We are now so productive we have time for things like watching TV, and going on vacation, and all the other modern things.

China is starting to do the same. Those who work in factories send a large chunk back home. That money helps get the family stable. They are then able to focus on more productive activities. They will then sell their surplus on the market, making a profit. That profit will in turn drive their demand for goods that would would have been useless to them before. This causes the middle class to spend their new wealth.

You are seeing all of this happening in china now. Yes, many of the goods are produced in China, but it wont last long. Economic isolationism was the predominate way of life for, well thousands of years. It finally opens up and boom, huge growth. I cant see how this is a bad thing at all.

 

[BoberFett]

Yea, think of factories in the US making the fork lifts, the cutting torches, the nail guns. Think of the automation companies involved in helping to build those factories. Instead, we are replacing the middle class workers with McService jobs by the millions. Great plan....

Someone has to make the forklifts, nailguns, welding machines,,,,.

Oh, thats right, those jobs have gone to china.

I was at lowes the other day looking at nailguns. $300 for a made in china nail gun.

So you get a handful of people making the tools that put thousands out of work.

Technology eliminates jobs. That's just a fact. We were able to keep up for a long time, finding busy work for people but we're starting to see the end game. You're not putting that genie back in the bottle no matter how hard you try.

 

[realibrad]

So you get a handful of people making the tools that put thousands out of work.

Technology eliminates jobs. That's just a fact. We were able to keep up for a long time, finding busy work for people but we're starting to see the end game. You're not putting that genie back in the bottle no matter how hard you try.

Technology also creates jobs.

All those poor horse trainers were lost to the automobile. Can anyone honestly say that cars are horrible for the economy? Cars are far more productive than horses, and have a far less impact on the environment.