Middle class - worse off than the numbers show

[Sonikku]

The average American is doing great.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

You must have a really small penis or be so insecure with yourself that almost every thread you post in includes a personal antidote about your success that doesn't mean shit to the discussion at hand

It looks like you and McOwned have a lot in common......jealousy. My bet you also have a college degree in an overloaded field and get paid a mediocre salary.

 

[ivwshane]

It looks like you and McOwned have a lot in common......jealousy. My bet you also have a college degree in an overloaded field and get paid a mediocre salary.

Lol! There you go again! It must be super tiny!

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Lol! There you go again! It must be super tiny!

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[ivwshane]

Thank you for proving my point.

Lol! No thank you! Please tell us more about your life and other details that aren't germane to the conversation! We are all waiting on pins and needles to hear about whether or not you got that promotion! Please tell us how big your house is and how you have so many cars! We all, secretly want to know even though we are all just jealous! We all wish we could have the life of some moron on the internet that has 12,000 posts in four years and who lives in a big city (pop. 11,000) with other rich people and how you wipe your ass with $100 bills!

Please! Please tell us more about your fairy tail life! Sure most of us came to P&N to discuss politics but after seeing how great your life is, we would all rather hear you talk about it rather than discuss politics and news! I mean your anecdotes are living proof that all our problems can be solved if we just all had good work ethic and are willing to work hard (but not too hard that we can't post around the clock on anandtech!) and if we just focus on school, we too, can graduate from collage and find that dream job! After all the only difference between you and a bum is just gumption!

When you are done telling us how rich you are can you tell us how your farts smell like roses & scented candles!?




Oh, I found your wiki:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by Londo_Jowo
Thank you for proving my point.

Lol! No thank you! Please tell us more about your life and other details that aren't germane to the conversation! We are all waiting on pins and needles to hear about whether or not you got that promotion! Please tell us how big your house is and how you have so many cars! We all, secretly want to know even though we are all just jealous! We all wish we could have the life of some moron on the internet that has 12,000 posts in four years and who lives in a big city (pop. 11,000) with other rich people and how you wipe your ass with $100 bills!

Please! Please tell us more about your fairy tail life! Sure most of us came to P&N to discuss politics but after seeing how great your life is, we would all rather hear you talk about it rather than discuss politics and news! I mean your anecdotes are living proof that all our problems can be solved if we just all had good work ethic and are willing to work hard (but not too hard that we can't post around the clock on anandtech!) and if we just focus on school, we too, can graduate from collage and find that dream job! After all the only difference between you and a bum is just gumption!

When you are done telling us how rich you are can you tell us how your farts smell like roses & scented candles!?

Oh, I found your wiki:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

Awesome sauce

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Please! Please tell us more about your fairy tail life!

LOL!

Awesome sauce

Get promoted to chief burger flipper yet?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Lol! No thank you! Please tell us more about your life and other details that aren't germane to the conversation! We are all waiting on pins and needles to hear about whether or not you got that promotion! Please tell us how big your house is and how you have so many cars! We all, secretly want to know even though we are all just jealous! We all wish we could have the life of some moron on the internet that has 12,000 posts in four years and who lives in a big city (pop. 11,000) with other rich people and how you wipe your ass with $100 bills!

Please! Please tell us more about your fairy tail life! Sure most of us came to P&N to discuss politics but after seeing how great your life is, we would all rather hear you talk about it rather than discuss politics and news! I mean your anecdotes are living proof that all our problems can be solved if we just all had good work ethic and are willing to work hard (but not too hard that we can't post around the clock on anandtech!) and if we just focus on school, we too, can graduate from collage and find that dream job! After all the only difference between you and a bum is just gumption!

When you are done telling us how rich you are can you tell us how your farts smell like roses & scented candles!?


Oh, I found your wiki:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

Here you go to prove my point even further and to top it off your brother in jealously chimes in.

Awesome sauce

 

[z1ggy]

We are essentially moving into what I call a modern day feudal society. We have a shrinking middle class (eventually we'd all become "poor") while the elite gain more and more wealth.

This is just what the rich want. A limitless supply of expendable plebeians to do their labor, while they cash in on all the gains.

It doesn't surprise me that home ownership is down, new car sales down and stock ownership is low. People from my generation are balls deep in debt due to the insane costs of getting a college degree plus inflation periods that surmount yearly raises.

I worry that I'll never be able to afford a future house, or that my kids will end up accumulating tons of debt in their future because I didn't have the means to save up for them.

 

[realibrad]

We are essentially moving into what I call a modern day feudal society. We have a shrinking middle class (eventually we'd all become "poor") while the elite gain more and more wealth.

This is just what the rich want. A limitless supply of expendable plebeians to do their labor, while they cash in on all the gains.

It doesn't surprise me that home ownership is down, new car sales down and stock ownership is low. People from my generation are balls deep in debt due to the insane costs of getting a college degree plus inflation periods that surmount yearly raises.

I worry that I'll never be able to afford a future house, or that my kids will end up accumulating tons of debt in their future because I didn't have the means to save up for them.

I would think the rich dont care who make up "their" labor force, be it poor people or robots.

Society feeds us a view on how to get rich. Go to college, take out loans, blah blah blah. Perhaps, we should look at the data to see what we should do, instead of blindly following an ideology.

College for a huge chunk of society is not worth the cost. Many degrees are not worth the cost. There isint a very well established feed back mechanism for college and its cost. If we truly believe that the government has a place in human capital investment, perhaps we should broaden our investments, instead of pumping more money just into college.

A 4 year degree in human spirituality might be fun, but it likely wont get you a middle class job either.

 

[Engineer]

I would think the rich dont care who make up "their" labor force, be it poor people or robots.

But they sure as hell care when they start losing revenue/profits because their customers (former?) can't buy their stuff. Case in point: Walmart thinks that we should be bringing back manufacturing to the US. Do you think that they are doing it out of the kindness of their heart or other motives...say....better paying equates to more sales for Walmart?

Eh....could be......

 

[z1ggy]

I would think the rich dont care who make up "their" labor force, be it poor people or robots.

Society feeds us a view on how to get rich. Go to college, take out loans, blah blah blah. Perhaps, we should look at the data to see what we should do, instead of blindly following an ideology.

College for a huge chunk of society is not worth the cost. Many degrees are not worth the cost. There isint a very well established feed back mechanism for college and its cost. If we truly believe that the government has a place in human capital investment, perhaps we should broaden our investments, instead of pumping more money just into college.

A 4 year degree in human spirituality might be fun, but it likely wont get you a middle class job either.

I agree that many degrees are indeed "pointless" to the extent they may not have real world applicability if you wish to earn a good income. However, is it really that student's fault? When businesses require 4 year degrees just to answer customer care hotlines, or 4 year degrees just to be a bank teller.. it is many times our corporations setting people up for failure.

We can't just have a society of engineers and doctors. There has to be low and middle pay jobs taken by people of lesser intellect/work ethic. The thing is though, I don't see people just suddenly quitting going to college just because they won't be getting their degree in some potentially high paying field. It's a cultural thing now. Unless you are genius enough to be self made and don't need college, it's pretty unlikely you'll be successful without having a degree.

 

[Newell Steamer]

Regan is laughing his ass off.

Because #1, people actually believed his lies and #2, no one is doing anything about it (getting rid of the tax cuts, etc.).

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I agree that many degrees are indeed "pointless" to the extent they may not have real world applicability if you wish to earn a good income. However, is it really that student's fault? When businesses require 4 year degrees just to answer customer care hotlines, or 4 year degrees just to be a bank teller.. it is many times our corporations setting people up for failure.

We can't just have a society of engineers and doctors. There has to be low and middle pay jobs taken by people of lesser intellect/work ethic. The thing is though, I don't see people just suddenly quitting going to college just because they won't be getting their degree in some potentially high paying field. It's a cultural thing now. Unless you are genius enough to be self made and don't need college, it's pretty unlikely you'll be successful without having a degree.

I agree, and I think people are looking at college wrong. You still have many people that claim college is not job training and is there for an education. While strictly true, people still need to evaluate the ROI on their degree choice and if it isn't there, they need to select something else. The issue is that many lower/middle class people have become snobs and look down on the trades and think their special little snowflakes are college material.

Going to college just to study "what you love" and to major in that is really still something that is left for the wealthy. Most of us who grew up in the middle class had to pick something that would pay the bills and interested us. In fact, my parents impressed that on my brother and I many times while growing up. Believe me, if I'd come from a wealthy family and didn't have to worry about eating or paying bills after college, I would've majored in something I'm passionate about like history. Instead, I took another one of my interests (computers and electronics) and got an Electrical Engineering degree instead.

Now, you have idiots going into six figure debt for degrees in sociology or women's studies and having to settle for $8/hr jobs at Starbucks or elsewhere and sinking in a cesspool of debt.

#2, no one is doing anything about it (getting rid of the tax cuts, etc.).

Including the Democrats.

 

[realibrad]

But they sure as hell care when they start losing revenue/profits because their customers (former?) can't buy their stuff. Case in point: Walmart thinks that we should be bringing back manufacturing to the US. Do you think that they are doing it out of the kindness of their heart or other motives...say....better paying equates to more sales for Walmart?

Eh....could be......

I think Walmart is making statements that are politically popular. You only get wealth creation when productivity is higher than cost.

As for the next post about college, I feel the pain. I come from a family that is poor. We had enough to eat, so better than some, but in no way middle class. College was never really an option, because I had to work. I got a girlfriend and together we have built a good life. We just bought a house, and for me to progress further, I have to break down the wall of college. It quite annoying to want a degree in something, and have to take classes that have nothing to do with my desired degree. I have 2 classes to finish my first year of college, and money is tight with the house so its on hold. The endless bull shit of college seems like such a waste.

I do believe that if we stopped pumping out unskilled college grads and got back to a system where people could work their way up, or get a useful degree we would be better off. The demand to have a 4 year degree to be seen is a modern thing. I'm 28 so its been my reality, but I can talk to people that came before me, and the story was very different. College has become a very very expensive sorting mechanism, rather than a place for knowledge.

 

[Texashiker]

This thread makes me sad.

Over the weekend I talked to a guy who does the hiring for a local welding shop. I was not looking for a job, he is dating a friend of the family and came to a crawfish boil my wife and I were having.

The guy told me he gets like 1,000 applications every week.

When a small local company is getting 1,000 applications a week the employees can be treated like crap, wages will remain low, benefits cut,,,, whatever the company wants.

There was a theory back in the 1990s that after the older generation retired wages would go back up. As the population ages and retires, millions of illegals are granted amnesty.

We think things are bad now? Add 20 million new workers to the market and lets see what happens.

The factory jobs that supported the middle class are in china and never coming back.

The job market is flooded.

I look for the middle class to pretty much disappear in the next 20 years.

 

[Exterous]

average age of cars on road is at an all time recorded high of over 11 years.

Are you referring to the BLS new study 'Americans' aging autos'? If so I don't think thats the 'average age on the road'. The article doesn't say one way or the other but I get a very strong impression that leased vehicles were left out of it. "Owner's" and "purchasing" are common in the article. references are made to "selling" the old car or "donating" it which is something you can't do with a lease. Given that major auto makers like GM and Ford are reporting leasing making up over a quarter of their sales and CNBC reporting that 28% of new vehicles are leased if the article DID include leasing then that would push the average life of a non-leased vehicle on the road up into the 14-16 year bracket which I find incredibly suspect. If we assume the average lease is two years for 28% of the car owning population and it is NOT included in the study that drops the average age of the car on the road to around 8 years old

Anyway - I think the average cost of a new car continuing to go up has something to do with that give that its above $31,000.

As the Middle Class began losing Purchasing Power, Debt acquisition became easier and people began replacing their lost Income with Debt, most likely without even realizing that they were doing it.

Falling prices on many things has certainly helped the situation somewhat, but an increase in Income is the only cure for maintaining that Lifestyle. It's near impossible to have all the Latest/Greatest anymore though, there's just too much diversity and that in itself is a large part of the problem. If people were a little more Niche focused they could have their little thing of distinction and not be drowning in Debt at the same time.

That's sorta how I see it anyway.

:thumbsup: There also seems to have been a structural shift in how wealth is being earned. Since the start of the recession most of the gains have been in the stock market as opposed to wages. Unfortunately the recession is what caused a large percentage of the middle class to exit the stock market. The argument over wage increase, or the lack thereof, is a valid one but the Middle Class isn't doing itself any favors spending more on restaurants, alcohol and tobacco use than they are in building their wealth (according to the BLS)

 

[realibrad]

This thread makes me sad.

Over the weekend I talked to a guy who does the hiring for a local welding shop. I was not looking for a job, he is dating a friend of the family and came to a crawfish boil my wife and I were having.

The guy told me he gets like 1,000 applications every week.

When a small local company is getting 1,000 applications a week the employees can be treated like crap, wages will remain low, benefits cut,,,, whatever the company wants.

There was a theory back in the 1990s that after the older generation retired wages would go back up. As the population ages and retires, millions of illegals are granted amnesty.

We think things are bad now? Add 20 million new workers to the market and lets see what happens.

The factory jobs that supported the middle class are in china and never coming back.

The job market is flooded.

I look for the middle class to pretty much disappear in the next 20 years.

If that is the case, people need to stop getting subsidized for having children, and subsidized to not have them.

 

[Texashiker]

If that is the case, people need to stop getting subsidized for having children, and subsidized to not have them.

Who is going to pay the tax bill the baby boomers ran up?

We simply can not have a decrease in population as our tax base depends on it.

As long as companies like apple are saving a billions dollars by using cheap chinese labor, so what if schools are strapped for money and roads are falling apart.

The root cause of our financial problems is free trade.

Apple has a billion and a half in the bank, in part to cheap labor. Imagine how many lives could be turned around if that billion had been paid out in wages to factory workers.

 

[realibrad]

Who is going to pay the tax bill the baby boomers ran up?

We simply can not have a decrease in population as our tax base depends on it.

As long as companies like apple are saving a billions dollars by using cheap chinese labor, so what if schools are strapped for money and roads are falling apart.

The root cause of our financial problems is free trade.

Apple has a billion and a half in the bank, in part to cheap labor. Imagine how many lives could be turned around if that billion had been paid out in wages to factory workers.

You lost me on free trade. Free trade, actual free trade has pulled millions out of extreme poverty. That is a new demographic that will want things other than just food and water. A growing middle class in China has huge potential.

 

[Engineer]

I think Walmart is making statements that are politically popular. You only get wealth creation when productivity is higher than cost.

And they are spending billions of dollars to make that statement? I don't disagree that may be the partial motivation but the fact is that Walmart same store sales have started to stagnate and in some cases, decline. Walmart, for all that they are called, isn't stupid (some things debatable).

 

[Engineer]

You lost me on free trade. Free trade, actual free trade has pulled millions out of extreme poverty. That is a new demographic that will want things other than just food and water. A growing middle class in China has huge potential.

Yes...to wipe out the US middle class.

 

[Texashiker]

You lost me on free trade. Free trade, actual free trade has pulled millions out of extreme poverty. That is a new demographic that will want things other than just food and water. A growing middle class in China has huge potential.

We do not make smart phones, computers,,,, or just about anything else here in the states. Where is the new Chinese middle class going to be buying their stuff from? From there own factories.

Free trade is detrimental to the US economy while beneficial to the host economy.

Lets say whirpool closes a factory in a rural area and moves to china. Who is going to replace that lost tax revenue? Who is going to replace those jobs?

While china builds the three gorges dam, we have a record number of people on welfare.

 

[Engineer]

Who is going to replace those jobs?

Currently...WalMart, McDonalds and Yum Brands - which account for over 2% of the entire US work force. Great paying jobs with great benefits...or so I hear...:whiste:

 

[realibrad]

Yes...to wipe out the US middle class.

Wait.....are you arguing that growing a middle class in a different county is bad for the world? It sure seems like it.