Middle class - worse off than the numbers show

[Texashiker]

Currently...WalMart, McDonalds and Yum Brands - which account for over 2% of the entire US work force. Great paying jobs with great benefits...or so I hear...:whiste:

Here in southeast Texas during the 1950s, 60s and 70s, a young person right out of high school could go to work in a shipyard, buy a home, car and have a family without a college degree.

Then the shipyards closed.

Today, that same young man now works at best buy, verizon store, academy,,,, making a faction of what his grandfather was making at his age.

 

[Genx87]

Wait.....are you arguing that growing a middle class in a different county is bad for the world? It sure seems like it.

I find it so interesting our entitled feeling to have overpaid jobs in this country. This sense of equality, mostly from the left, ends at our borders. Brown people should only be prosperous if they reside within the United States ect ect.

 

[realibrad]

We do not make smart phones, computers,,,, or just about anything else here in the states. Where is the new Chinese middle class going to be buying their stuff from? From there own factories.

Free trade is detrimental to the US economy while beneficial to the host economy.

Lets say whirpool closes a factory in a rural area and moves to china. Who is going to replace that lost tax revenue? Who is going to replace those jobs?

While china builds the three gorges dam, we have a record number of people on welfare.

So, using that logic, should we ever mechanize? It used to take a lot more people to build a car before computers, and machines and production innovation like the assembly line.

We should be isolationist whenever a foreign person can do something cheaper and or more efficient.

 

[realibrad]

I find it so interesting our entitled feeling to have overpaid jobs in this country. This sense of equality, mostly from the left, ends at our borders. Brown people should only be prosperous if they reside within the United States ect ect.

To be fair, I dont think he was being racist, which is where you seem to be taking it.

 

[WackyDan]

It's the same in NJ. These people have $500k homes and pay $10k in property taxes. They drive 2 cars, have a pool in their back yard, etc..

BUT... They don't have accumulated wealth. Both mom/dad make good money but how long could they possibly last if they both lost their jobs? They know how to spend, but they don't know squat about investing and saving. How can they have a high consumption lifestyle. The sad thing is their children will do exactly what their parents are currently doing. They will expect to live the same lifestyle that they had when they were living at home. They to will become high consumption adults.

Check out "The Millionaire Next Door." The book was written 15-20 years ago, but the principles in the book are timeless.

There was a great article on CNN a couple years back that looked at four households from within the same neighborhood/development. The surprise? The family making the least was also the family with the most in a retirement account. The household with almost zero savings was the one where they were making the most and figured they could start to save later due to that.

I make a great salary. Over 6 figures. When I bought this house I was making roughly 60k. We paid $142k for a distressed property that if in decent condition should have went for $175. Still fixing it up room by room - cash only, no home equity loans. I have a 2005 car, a 2012 truck, a 2008 motorcycle, and a 2009 travel trailer - all paid off. Mortgage is only debt.

My point? Pay off that shit and you'll be amazed at what you can have and have securely while still saving - not putting your house payment, etc in jeopardy.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I find it so interesting our entitled feeling to have overpaid jobs in this country. This sense of equality, mostly from the left, ends at our borders. Brown people should only be prosperous if they reside within the United States ect ect.

I have to disagree with you here. The job of our government is to preserve and promote policies which maintain/increase the standard of living of our own citizens. They have failed us miserably. I certainly harbor no ill will towards the average Chinese person whose standard of living is increasing as a result of globalization, but the US needs to look out for its own interests first and a shrinking middle class in the US is in no one's best interest.

 

[Texashiker]

So, using that logic, should we ever mechanize? It used to take a lot more people to build a car before computers, and machines and production innovation like the assembly line.

We should be isolationist whenever a foreign person can do something cheaper and or more efficient.

Have you ever done a hard days work in your life? Ever welded, used a cutting torch, ran a forklift, framed a building, used a nail gun,,, ever built something with your own hands?

That hard work is what built America.

Without hard work we are stagnating.

As for your question about cheap labor, yes, we should protect our job markets from cheap labor.

It is us versus them, and they are winning.

 

[Genx87]

Here in southeast Texas during the 1950s, 60s and 70s, a young person right out of high school could go to work in a shipyard, buy a home, car and have a family without a college degree.

Then the shipyards closed.

Today, that same young man now works at best buy, verizon store, academy,,,, making a faction of what his grandfather was making at his age.

The good old days where high school graduates could work themselves to death with manual labor jobs.

 

[z1ggy]

Who is going to pay the tax bill the baby boomers ran up?

We simply can not have a decrease in population as our tax base depends on it.

As long as companies like apple are saving a billions dollars by using cheap chinese labor, so what if schools are strapped for money and roads are falling apart.

The root cause of our financial problems is free trade.

Apple has a billion and a half in the bank, in part to cheap labor. Imagine how many lives could be turned around if that billion had been paid out in wages to factory workers.

So.. You'd advocate government setting prices and essentially having ultimate control over the markets????

Did somebody Hijack TH's account??

 

[realibrad]

Have you ever done a hard days work in your life? Ever welded, used a cutting torch, ran a forklift, framed a building, used a nail gun,,, ever built something with your own hands?

That hard work is what built America.

Without hard work we are stagnating.

As for your question about cheap labor, yes, we should protect our job markets from cheap labor.

It is us versus them, and they are winning.

Actually, yes. My dad is a mechanic. Reali's Auto, in Fremont CA. http://www.yelp.com/biz/realis-auto-repair-fremont

Mind you, I did mostly oil changes, trans flush, break jobs, swapped a few radiators, and tune ups, things of that sort. But yes, I have done manual labor. I would go from school, go home and change, and then go to the shop for a few hours. I don't think that makes me qualified in any way as an expert on labor. I also don't think that a doctor to treat cancer needs to have had it either. Not sure where you are going with that though.

But hey, I think we agree on there being a glut of unskilled labor.

 

[realibrad]

The good old days where high school graduates could work themselves to death with manual labor jobs.

Yes, the good old days. See, my dad is not a genius. He never could have gotten a 4 year degree. He was able to work his way up from a mechanic, to owning his own shop.

 

[Texashiker]

The good old days where high school graduates could work themselves to death with manual labor jobs.

Who do you think built your roads, your bridges, the refineries that made your plastics, gasoline, diesel and rubber?

Manual labor is nothing to be ashamed of.

So.. You'd advocate government setting prices and essentially having ultimate control over the markets????

Did somebody Hijack TH's account??

I advocate the government protecting my neighbors (and my) job so taxes do not go up to support welfare.

We need a level playing field to protect our jobs and our economy.

He was able to work his way up from a mechanic, to owning his own shop.

That is what hard work and dedication gets you.

 

[Engineer]

Wait.....are you arguing that growing a middle class in a different county is bad for the world? It sure seems like it.

As long as it's destroying the US middle class, that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't give a shit about the rest of the world...that's their problem. The declining middle class in the US is OUR problem.

 

[Engineer]

I have to disagree with you here. The job of our government is to preserve and promote policies which maintain/increase the standard of living of our own citizens. They have failed us miserably. I certainly harbor no ill will towards the average Chinese person whose standard of living is increasing as a result of globalization, but the US needs to look out for its own interests first and a shrinking middle class in the US is in no one's best interest.

Well said and 100% agree!

:thumbsup:

 

[realibrad]

As long as it's destroying the US middle class, that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't give a shit about the rest of the world...that's their problem. The declining middle class in the US is OUR problem.

If you think that Walmart bringing back jobs to the US will drive up Ag. Demand and thats good for the US. Then China growing its middle class that would drive up global Ag Demand should be good to right?

 

[z1ggy]

I advocate the government protecting my neighbors (and my) job so taxes do not go up to support welfare.

We need a level playing field to protect our jobs and our economy.

It's more than just stopping all the illegals from coming into the country. I mean, honestly do you really think they are taking all the jobs? They are picking fruit and doing landscaping stuff. Not welding, and building new sky scrapers, etc etc. Also, ( and I don't have time to check) but I'm willing to bet the most welfare recipients are born right here in the good ol US of A.

And it's not the governments job to tell Apple they can't export jobs. I know it's not good for the jobs here, but if companies didn't rely on cheap labor, products would be 10x as expensive as they are now.

Need a set of bed sheets? Oh ok but they were made in America so they cost $200 per set instead of $30.

 

[Genx87]

To be fair, I dont think he was being racist, which is where you seem to be taking it.

I'm not sure if it is racist thought. But I find it interesting how quickly the lefts ideology of equality for income and race falls apart once it leaves our borders.

 

[realibrad]

I'm not sure if it is racist thought. But I find it interesting how quickly the lefts ideology of equality for income and race falls apart once it leaves our borders.

This is why when I try to solve problems, I use both hands, not just my left of my right. :awe:

 

[Engineer]

If you think that Walmart bringing back jobs to the US will drive up Ag. Demand and thats good for the US. Then China growing its middle class that would drive up global Ag Demand should be good to right?

If (big IF) the Chinese government lets the Chinese people import our stuff, sure. That's not case now....only token stuff imported by China at best.

 

[Genx87]

I have to disagree with you here. The job of our government is to preserve and promote policies which maintain/increase the standard of living of our own citizens. They have failed us miserably. I certainly harbor no ill will towards the average Chinese person whose standard of living is increasing as a result of globalization, but the US needs to look out for its own interests first and a shrinking middle class in the US is in no one's best interest.

That is fine. But I am failing to see how erecting an economic barrier around our country will provide for a viable middle class in the long term. It will raise prices and make us even less competitive in a global economy.

I'd be more open to a UBI before protectionism.

 

[Engineer]

I'm not sure if it is racist thought. But I find it interesting how quickly the lefts ideology of equality for income and race falls apart once it leaves our borders.

The last time I saw, the Constitution stops at our border and so does my loyalty. Looks like you have no loyalty to your fellow country man except to say 'sorry about your luck'. Just don't whine about the rising welfare state while promoting globalization. You won't get a damn drop of sympathy from me and your whines.

 

[Genx87]

Yes, the good old days. See, my dad is not a genius. He never could have gotten a 4 year degree. He was able to work his way up from a mechanic, to owning his own shop.

ok? And how many people died early deaths because they were literally working themselves to death? I don't understand the fascination with the "good" old days. Work consisted of a lot more manual labor 50+ years ago. I don't consider going back to that as a whole as progressing as a nation.

 

[realibrad]

If (big IF) the Chinese government lets the Chinese people import our stuff, sure. That's not case now....only token stuff imported by China at best.

I dont know. It looks like we already are shipping a large load ( ) to China already.

 

[Genx87]

The last time I saw, the Constitution stops at our border and so does my loyalty. Looks like you have no loyalty to your fellow country man except to say 'sorry about your luck'. Just don't whine about the rising welfare state while promoting globalization. You won't get a damn drop of sympathy from me and your whines.

Hey I am on the right side of the spectrum. So I don't give much of a damn about people on the outside of our borders. But that wont stop me from pointing out the disengenious nature of the lefts call for equality if it stops at national borders.

Loyalty to my country means finding a solution that involves the real world. Not pretending it is 1950 again with half a world literally burned out world from WWII and the other half being over run by communists who cant run a competitive economy. I'm finding it hard to see how erecting artificial borders will progress our country long term to one of economic prosperity.

 

[Engineer]

I dont know. It looks like we already are shipping a large load ( ) to China already.

2013:

TOTAL 2013 121,736.4 440,447.7 -318,711.3 (billions of dollars).