Michael Moore trashes "American Sniper"

[werepossum]

We escalated it to the world stage. The french had lost their war against the Viet Ming, how can you suggest that we were not responsible for a war in which 50,000 Americans lost their lives in some country 11,000 miles away that nobody had even heard of?


Would America have been invaded by the NVA had we not invaded?



I'm curious if you will actually answer a single question or just continue making ridiculous analogies. So the US being responsible for Vietnam is comparable to blaming them for Ghengis Khan? What a joke!

You criticize me for not researching my arguments, but yours don't even address the questions at hand. Its all slight of hand BS.

No, North Vietnam would not have invaded America. Note by that "standard" America also started World War I, World War II, Korea . . .

Holy hell, you sure were right! The ignorance flowing from the leftys in this forum never ceases to amaze.

The stupidest thing Ive read all day list is growing by leaps and bounds.

When you see him hit rock bottom, it's easy to underestimate his ability to dig.

Stupid politics. Like anyone holds the moral high ground here. The fact of the matter is, each of you would blow that sniper if given half the chance.

Exa- Um, wait, what?!

I THOUGHT I knew where you were going with that. I was grievously wrong. Like, "America started the Vietnam War" wrong. Surely there's some sane middle ground between a willingness to Lewinsky this man and OMG I'm so glad he's dead?

War is a nasty, horrible, evil thing, though it's far from the worst thing mankind has devised. I haven't seen the movie, and I won't be seeing it. However, that said I admire his willingness to serve, and I admire his effectiveness at his MOS. If we have to fight, then I want our guys and gals to be as efficient killing machines as possible and as is ethical, so that more of them come home. G-d will that our politicians are as effective in selecting the right causes.

 

[TreVader]

No, North Vietnam would not have invaded America. Note by that "standard" America also started World War I, World War II, Korea . . .

"Start" the war was a poor choice of words on my part , my point is that the USA was completely responsible for it's own involvement in Vietnam. It was not a necessary war.

 

[werepossum]

"Start" the war was a poor choice of words on my part , my point is that the USA was completely responsible for it's own involvement in Vietnam. It was not a necessary war.

No wars are necessary. One can always peacefully let evil prevail, even on one's own soil and citizenry. And yes, of course the USA is responsible for its own involvement in Vietnam. Sadly, we lost, so Vietnam has been more like North Korea than South Korea. Happily, we're now starting to engage Vietnam, so even if they don't have freedom they can have food and a bit of security. Until wages hit a quarter an hour and the Nike factory closes anyway.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Tre, no matter how hard you try, the goal posts will not move to Vietnam.

 

[Blanky]

Good example of why people shouldn't say inflammatory things on Twitter.

Seth rogen's comparison to inglorious basterds was more apt. This movie, like lone survivor, lies and embellishes and when called out on it will of course have people saying but it is a movie! This is highly dishonest.

This was a much better movie than lone survivor, which was little more than Hollywood trash.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Good example of why people shouldn't say inflammatory things on Twitter.

Seth rogen's comparison to inglorious basterds was more apt. This movie, like lone survivor, lies and embellishes and when called out on it will of course have people saying but it is a movie! This is highly dishonest.

This was a much better movie than lone survivor, which was little more than Hollywood trash.

I think in any of these movies there is a clear compromise on accuracy in exchange for making an entertaining message. Without this compromise, there may not be ANY message heard.

 

[TreVader]

My point was the american snipers are for defense of our troops, and while i understand we would not want to be invaded that does not justify the taliban to kill us in Afghanistan therefore their suicide bombers are immoral compared to our snipers protecting our troops and aid workers.

I'm not justifying it either way. It is what it is, that's my point.

We were at war with the Taliban, and they were fighting us. I'm sure to them, we looked just as bad as they looked to us.

The sniper has his job. The soldier has his job. The suicide bomber has his job. They are all roles currently played in modern Militant Jihadist groups. It is what it is.


You are taking your own perceptions of whom the sniper is protecting (US citizens), but you are not considering how this looks to families in Taliban villages. To them, the SBVIED driver is a hero. He dies "to protect them".

I don't judge snipers or suicide bombers as "unethical" because ethics in war is 99% bullshit. Whether they are ethical or not really depends on who they kill, and who they save. A sniper who kills children is just as unethical in my mind as a suicide bomber who targets children. They are both horrendous.

In the same token, I won't judge a sniper to be unethical if he kills the people he is told to, military people. I don't judge the suicide bomber that targeted that army base. He was a soldier too.

 

[Blanky]

THIS is fucking exactly why I hate movies based on a true story that then run away with it and turn into total shit. In Lone Survivor is was American soldiers who can take a half dozen 7.62 and keep running (plus made up numbers of bad guys), followed by air support at the end to kill all the taliban (bullshit).

In this it's the modest, humble Kyle (such a person never existed) and again endless amounts of idiotic brown people who are thoroughly and completely inept in combat even when outnumbering their enemy 10:1. Evidently Kyle enjoyed shooting people to such a degree he made up a story about killing two at a gas station and sniping people from the superdome during Katrina. If the movie was honest it would show the strengths and weaknesses of these people; it would be truly interesting instead of Hollywoodized.

And you get low brow hicks like those in your post taking this as some kind of historical documentary.

Without this compromise, there may not be ANY message heard.

This is for the best. The last thing we should be doing is lying about war because believe me some people see these movies and it serves as a recruiting video for the military.

 

[TreVader]

I thought Zero Dark Thirty was awesome. So what if it was a bit of propaganda, as long as you're not a fool you can see it for what it is (justify torture). Doesn't take away from the entertainment value.

 

[Blanky]

Haven't read most of tre's posts but let me be a devil's advocate for a moment and I think his basic gist is don't think your shit doesn't stink. Most of us are how we are not because we are special but because we were born where and when we were. I've made this point about Nazis Germany in the past. What made Germans suddenly so evil? And if they were, why aren't they now; why don't we hate them? People are generally products of their environment and not particularly good at putting their head out or thinking/acting outside of the box.

People who lack empathy and perspective are very quick to demonize others, oblivious to the reasons others are as they are, why they do what they do. It's very easy to be morally perfect when you're not tested.

 

[nickqt]

Haven't read most of tre's posts but let me be a devil's advocate for a moment and I think his basic gist is don't think your shit doesn't stink. Most of us are how we are not because we are special but because we were born where and when we were. I've made this point about Nazis Germany in the past. What made Germans suddenly so evil? And if they were, why aren't they now; why don't we hate them? People are generally products of their environment and not particularly good at putting their head out or thinking/acting outside of the box.

People who lack empathy and perspective are very quick to demonize others, oblivious to the reasons others are as they are, why they do what they do. It's very easy to be morally perfect when you're not tested.

Germans of the 1920s-1930s had been involved in a war, were the losers of that war (but told themselves they were backstabbed by Jews, socialists, communists, etc: November Criminals and were suffering from economic stress that most Western people today couldn't imagine. The backstabbing myth was cultivated and "made fact" by the Nazis, which is one way to radicalize and make violent people who aren't inherently violent.

There are parallels today with both US warmaking in Vietnam all the way to Iraq/Afghanistan and a backstabbing from home myth. And of course, economically, we have a shrinking middle class, and a whole lot of people who are intelligent, hardworking and capable are unable to really "move up" because of our entrenched economic system of corporate capitalism tied with nepotism. So, it's much easier to blame "others", whether they look differently, practice a different religion, or have different political beliefs. And at the same time, you identify with fellow tribe members on abstract principles rather than in reality.

 

[Subyman]

When a Nazi or suicide bomber does it, they're evil savages.

When an American sniper does it, he's mentally disturbed and just following orders. It's the system that has forsaken him.

Where did savages come from? I didn't say anything about savages. Troll attempt?

 

[Subyman]

He was told EXACTLY what he was getting into when he enlisted. I have zero sympathy for people who enter the military and then spend the rest of their lives pointing to the 4 years they spent as reservist as some kind of huge contribution to society. He volunteered to kill people, do you think he thought he would be handing out flyers in Afghanistan or Iraq?



And yeah he did his job, a disgusting one. And? I fail to see how that's remarkable, but I will have to see the movie and do some reading.

You are really showing your age.

 

[Matt1970]

I'm sure the NVA describe him glowingly, I mean he only wasted 89 of them in order to "stop the spread of communism".




And for what? What did we gain as a nation from him massacring the vietnamese? On their own soil?


We were fucking invaders.

I guess we were invaders in WWII then.

 

[kage69]

THIS is fucking exactly why I hate movies based on a true story that then run away with it and turn into total shit. In Lone Survivor is was American soldiers who can take a half dozen 7.62 and keep running ...

I understand the distaste over Hollywood's ethnocentric angle (not to mention asshats like in the quoted pic), but don't turn a blind eye to the real benefits body armor + rigorous training that instills a 'mission over all else' mentality. You do realize there is a difference between 'American soldiers' and Navy SEALs, right? Using them as analogous terms doesn't really work, for reasons which should be obvious.


Hard to find a better example than Mike Day wrt to what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL9vC1W8-xA

Walked out on his own feet. Brock fucking Samson.

 

[Rakehellion]

Where did savages come from? I didn't say anything about savages. Troll attempt?

The American Sniper calls his enemy savages in the movie. How are you not keeping up?

 

[davmat787]

Lol I guess he was overtaken. Last time I was really up on military stuff was like 2006-7 so I guess this guy hadn't overtaken Hathcock yet.



I'll have to see the movie to make a judgement. I still wouldn't call him a "hero" on the basis of # of kills. He's a very good sniper, but I personally do not value military contributions that consist of "x # of enemy killed, then we left". That's not a contribution, it's a massacre.

Well, you could at least thank him for being a thrifty patriot too. 168 kills at oh... depending on cartridge used... .338 Lapua he used on that record shot are relatively expensive, especially back then, so lets say $3 a head.

By today's Military Industrial Complex spending and all, that is very cheap.

So unless you like government waste, you can thank him for his tax savings as well.

 

[nickqt]

Well, you could at least thank him for being a thrifty patriot too. 168 kills at oh... depending on cartridge used... .338 Lapua he used on that record shot are relatively expensive, especially back then, so lets say $3 a head.

By today's Military Industrial Complex spending and all, that is very cheap.

So unless you like government waste, you can thank him for his tax savings as well.

Government waste is always a fun term to flesh out.

Who, exactly, causes government waste?

Private contractors. You know, jobCreators™, blessed be their name.

 

[davmat787]

The American Sniper calls his enemy savages in the movie. How are you not keeping up?

Yes, dehumanizing your enemy in war by calling them names is as human as the first time a rock was thrown from one man to another, I'm sure some ugly guttural slur was thrown as well, perhaps an early version of savage. I know you are just pointing out this, not directing anything to you just to be clear.

And they call him Shaitan Al-Ramadi, aka the Devil of Ramadi and had an $80,000 bounty on his head. I am not glorifying death at all here, but war is simply fucking different, and he paid a huge price too, and the ultimate price in trying to help a fellow service member deal with PTSD.

The Iraqi President even gave the US the go ahead and said anyone left in Ramadi is bad and dangerous, and still a sniper doesn't shoot anything that moves, there are rules of engagement he must follow.

 

[davmat787]

Government waste is always a fun term to flesh out.

Who, exactly, causes government waste?

Private contractors. You know, jobCreators™, blessed be their name.

At least what is considered a righty on this board used the Military Industrial
Complex, surely that is appreciated by all at least.

And how the hell is government waste caused completely by private forces? You went straight there without mentioning where that money first comes from at all. I haven't been active here recently, don't know you, just thought that was an interesting... leap.

 

[TreVader]

Well, you could at least thank him for being a thrifty patriot too. 168 kills at oh... depending on cartridge used... .338 Lapua he used on that record shot are relatively expensive, especially back then, so lets say $3 a head.

By today's Military Industrial Complex spending and all, that is very cheap.

So unless you like government waste, you can thank him for his tax savings as well.

My point is that he neither defended territory we currently possess nor captured territory we didn't before.


He certainly has value far above a normal soldier. He may be worth a whole company, but being adept at slaughter does not necessarily make a hero. I will have to read more but from what I gather he was an exceptional soldier but a pretty dismal citizen.

 

[nickqt]

At least what is considered a righty on this board used the Military Industrial
Complex, surely that is appreciated by all at least.

And how the hell is government waste caused completely by private forces? You went straight there without mentioning where that money first comes from at all. I haven't been active here recently, don't know you, just thought that was an interesting... leap.

Where did I leap?

Assuming that the government is purchasing something that benefits Americans in some way, waste is caused if the seller charges too much for resources, products or services. Usually they can get away with it here and there, such as when the whole "$700 toilet seats and $200 hammers! derp! outrage happened years and years ago.

The government(s) have a lot of paperwork, and creative private actors are able to steal from it, hence, stealing from taxpayers. It isn't particularly hard, it's just that the Federal penalties are pretty harsh, so you don't want to get caught.

You may disagree with me about whether TANF or SSI should be provided to the rabble, but ostensibly those funds go to helping (lazy, mooching) Americans. Same with paying Blackwater Intl. to go over to Iraq to shoot up civilians. Ostensibly, they're fighting a "war on terror".

But when Medicare/Medicaid providers or MIC companies start cooking the books, it's private actors stealing. Hence, government waste is almost always purely private companies causing the waste, assuming the original spending order was to help America or Americans in some sense.

Fraud which causes government waste is rarely the government taking money and just burning it. Either it's fraud in the books, or fraud in who the money is actually going to. Which is, again, private.

 

[davmat787]

My point is that he neither defended territory we currently possess nor captured territory we didn't before.


He certainly has value far above a normal soldier. He may be worth a whole company, but being adept at slaughter does not necessarily make a hero. I will have to read more but from what I gather he was an exceptional soldier but a pretty dismal citizen.

He defended his fellow soldiers, both US and coalition. No offense, but I don't think you understand the basic roles of a sniper and specifically what Ryan did.

 

[davmat787]

Where did I leap?

Assuming that the government is purchasing something that benefits Americans in some way, waste is caused if the seller charges too much for resources, products or services. *rest of post snipped*

Full stop there. When you are charged way to much for something, do you buy it?

 

[nickqt]

Full stop there. When you are charged way to much for something, do you buy it?

When you buy millions and millions of things, is it possible that some of those items buried on page 459 can go unnoticed at first?

Blame the victim and defend the fraud. Awesome!